Juan55 wrote:
If for PMA dates Canon is not presenting new models with enough improvements over the present line ("no incremental"); I have to start thinking seriously about that Canon has problems with finishing the designs & send them to the production lines.
It will be the only plausible explanation to this delay .... and the competence is starting to win market share.
That makes sense. An 'N' type upgrade is going to be pretty pointless on a 1Ds Mark 2 at this price range. The only thing that I can see that will restart sales of their flagship product is going to be, as you say, a new more modern sensor, a complete new package. I can imagine there are many people who like dcmiller and myself, are seriously in the market for a 1Ds Mark 3 (for example) but may well consider a 5D if no serious rejuvenation of the 1Ds2 happens soon.
dc is right. northlight-images has the best round up.
Anyway, I went to the beach camera site to buy it just now and its no longer listed there. What does that tell us?
It tells me that people have stopped buying Canon cameras, except the 400D, because they are waiting for rumour-ware/vapour-ware to appear. Thats not meant to be a personal attack Dave.
Why do people think the discounts appear. So to give people a damn fine reason to buy again. I've seen so many posts that show that stores are out-of-stock, its has interested my curiousity.
Do people think that the stores know something.... thats why they haven't got them in stock. Does anyone have an alternative reason why Canon might not want things spilled unless its on their timetable? I'll give one, because it would kill there sales for MONTHS. Canon may leak cameras +/- 2 weeks early, so magazines get a chance to prepare for the next big thing and leave potential space for the product. (Thats bracketing 1 week either side).
Fuji and Olympus announce things WAY early so as to try and keep the current customers excited, and hopefully not switch systems. And also garnish the interest of potential customers looking to buy in the next few months How long have we heard about the E-1 replacement.... or the Fuji S5 Pro. What information have you heard from Canon. Niente! (said with waiving hands).
I also watch Canon from the video side. There's no reason to believe that Canon doesn't have their act together. Quite the opposite. In imagining overall, Canon is Godzilla and the other companies are the townspeople worried about what it will do next.
Sony can be Mothra............... Let's make Nikon Batman's sidekick Robin.........
dcmiller wrote:
I was ready to buy the 1DsIII after photokina too.
Historically, many people were somewhat shocked and disappointed at the D30. Clearly not a camera aimed at professionals. The lesson I take from this is that Canon will do what it needs to do. They weren't even ready to use their own CMOS chip in the original 1D. The ideal first home built DSLR would have been a 1D cmos.
Looking at the five 1 series Canon DSLR, Canon clearly is only going to release a very solid product. In contrast, look at the D30 to 30D line. With those cameras they are doing incremental upgrades to create a periodic buzz in the market.
What I am not expecting in 2007 is a true 1DsIII. By that I mean the bigger LCD and a somewhat larger more modern sensor. Canon could have done that last year. The clerical staff for Canon engineering could have done that last year. I will buy that camera if that's what comes out. But that camera doesn't explain the rumblings in the industry. When one hears an elephant approaching, the expectation is not to see a chipmunk appear at the gate.
I wonder what a three billion dollar R&D budget can produce? ...Show more →
We do know the elements of what CAnon are working on to put in future cameras.
What we don't have the info on is which are ready, but we can perhaps make some estimates - or guesses!
1.OLED -Canon said sometime in 2007. likely this will come in, but will not make much difference in likely early applications - just reduces power drain from the present LCD as technology 2 is unlikely to be ready
2.EVF instead of OVF - a decent screen for this at the moment costs $20,000 - it seems doubtful Canon have cracked this - perhaps in five years - potentially revolutionary.
3.Better batteries - AFAIK they have only just figured out how to make Lion batteries which are likely to meet Canon's specs for pro use - good shelf life, temperature operating range and so on: http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/18054/page1/ http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=17653&ch=energy
This would really make a major difference to cameras - it would mean that tehy could re-package the 1 series into something much more compact if they want to.
Unless Canon have stolen a March on everyone else it could be a year until such batteries are ready - but actually, if Canon wanted to, they are under no pressure at all to bring out the new 1 series - they dominate the market with both the 1DsII and the 1DII
Fuel cells, micro-turbines and so on are still likely a long ways off.
4. Foveon-like sensor - last I heard it was not being thought of for this iteration, but could explain waiting instead of releasing a 1 series last fall.
5. Better AF and so on - a no-brainer
The really urgent one for replacement would seem to me to be the 30D, which is not selling well against the Nikons
Regards,
DaveMart
Alistair101 wrote:
That makes sense. An 'N' type upgrade is going to be pretty pointless on a 1Ds Mark 2 at this price range. The only thing that I can see that will restart sales of their flagship product is going to be, as you say, a new more modern sensor, a complete new package. I can imagine there are many people who like dcmiller and myself, are seriously in the market for a 1Ds Mark 3 (for example) but may well consider a 5D if no serious rejuvenation of the 1Ds2 happens soon.
I am positioned to the middle segment, as I am amateur at all, but with a degree that my 350D is not enough. So, in this same moment I have not choice in Canon line-up. Well, not true at all, I am contemplating go for the 5D with rebates. It´s my only solid choice now. BUT IF ..... a 40D with good performance appear or a 1D Mk III at a "reasonable price" (similar 5D actually) ... I should have to reconsider my choice.
If I did not stucked on Canon (for the glass); I should have to swap to another brand.
1Ds Mk III or whatever it will be called is out of my pocket !!
I don't understand this... LiION cells have been better then NiMH cells for a few years now... Why would it only be now that Canon would start to use then in a 'pro' camera? Surely they didn't need the A123 Systems technology or this upcoming Sony battery technology to justify a switch to LiION or similar batterys on a 'pro' camera...
DaveMart wrote:
3.Better batteries - AFAIK they have only just figured out how to make Lion batteries which are likely to meet Canon's specs for pro use - good shelf life, temperature operating range and so on: http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/18054/page1/ http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=17653&ch=energy
This would really make a major difference to cameras - it would mean that tehy could re-package the 1 series into something much more compact if they want to.
Unless Canon have stolen a March on everyone else it could be a year until such batteries are ready - but actually, if Canon wanted to, they are under no pressure at all to bring out the new 1 series - they dominate the market with both the 1DsII and the 1DII
Fuel cells, micro-turbines and so on are still likely a long ways off. ...Show more →
I usually don't bother with the rumor thread but I was sitting around last night and had a thought. Since PMA is just around the corner Fred should start a thread for people that want to guess what Canon is going to do. Each person that wants in on the guessing can donate $5.00 to a Paypal account that will go towards supporting the site. After the announcements at PMA the person that is the closest at guessing would receive a prize, say 50% of the proceeds in the pool and the other 50% would go towards this site.
Now I realize there would be several people that would have the same ideas but along with the guessing you would have to provide detailed features such as FPS, Mega-pixels, metering, etc. We could limit this to camera bodies only or make people choose a body and a lens. I think this could be fun and help support the site at the same time not to mention give people something to do to keep there minds busy!! How about it?
DynoMoHum wrote:
I don't understand this... LiION cells have been better then NiMH cells for a few years now... Why would it only be now that Canon would start to use then in a 'pro' camera? Surely they didn't need the A123 Systems technology or this upcoming Sony battery technology to justify a switch to LiION or similar batterys on a 'pro' camera...
Lion batteries have had issues which NiMiH batteries did not.
For a start safety was problematic - the Sony problere an obvious example, but the technology was inherently dangerous -efforts to overcome this are mentioned in the links I gave.
A second problem was self-discharge - not great if you are in the middle of the wilderness and recharging is not easy - that may be one reason why a lot of National Geographic shooters use Canon.
Thirdly, although I can't remember the precise details, I believe that the operating temperature is restricted compared to NiMiH batteries.
All these issues are now being addressed, but explain why Canon did not switch the pro bodies to the lighter and more powerful Lions earlier.
Regards,
DaveMart
DynoMoHum wrote:
As far as I know...NiMH are worse at all of those things, except for the 'safety'...
ad if it was really a safety issue, why would they have allowed them to be used in every other DSLR they make today?
If that is the case, why do you think Canon stuck to NiMiH?
As you say, their primary concern was not safety.
Googling will show you the comparisons for self-discharge and so on -but it is a little tricky, as you are always talking about at a specific time point using a specific variant of either technology.
Regards,
DaveMart
dcmiller wrote:
I was ready to buy the 1DsIII after photokina too.
What I am not expecting in 2007 is a true 1DsIII. By that I mean the bigger LCD and a somewhat larger more modern sensor. Canon could have done that last year. The clerical staff for Canon engineering could have done that last year. I will buy that camera if that's what comes out. But that camera doesn't explain the rumblings in the industry. When one hears an elephant approaching, the expectation is not to see a chipmunk appear at the gate.
You got that right. Any successor to the 1Ds MK II can only be expected in Photokina 2008. PhotoPlus Expo 2007 will be for the EOS 5D's successor and PMA 2008 is for the 30D replacement.
PMA 2007? No 40D or successor to 5D and 1Ds II. That's all.
lordcarl wrote:
You got that right. Any successor to the 1Ds MK II can only be expected in Photokina 2008. PhotoPlus Expo 2007 will be for the EOS 5D's successor and PMA 2008 is for the 30D replacement.
PMA 2007? No 40D or successor to 5D and 1Ds II. That's all.
I really can't imagine why the 1D bodies continue to use NiMH. As far as I know, the only thing NiMH has going for it over the current LiION is possibly in high power output... but I don't believe that any camera application should require power output greater then what the LiION can put out now.
In RC and other electric vehicles, NiMH is slightly more practical then typical LiION is, but in this application people want to pull more then 10C discharge current rates... No camera I know of should be anywhere near those kinds of discharge rates. I guess todays typical LiION are good for around 1C, which should be like 1.5 amps or so. If you ran multiple cells in parallel, you could double that, and surely the 1D doesn't need to pull that much current. The new A123 System cells will handle 30C discharge rates... (if you want some interesting reading on these new cells, check this out... http://slkelectronics.com/DeWalt/index.htm )
The only speculation I have would be... that maybe Canon had chosen the specs for this battery system back before LiION was as viable as it is today, and just decided to keep what they originally used, rather then have to re-work the entire power system for the 1D line... if that's the case... then I'd say they are long over due for some new batteries...
DaveMart wrote:
If that is the case, why do you think Canon stuck to NiMiH?
As you say, their primary concern was not safety.
Googling will show you the comparisons for self-discharge and so on -but it is a little tricky, as you are always talking about at a specific time point using a specific variant of either technology.
Regards,
DaveMart
DaveMart wrote:
Lion batteries have had issues which NiMiH batteries did not.
For a start safety was problematic - the Sony problere an obvious example, but the technology was inherently dangerous -efforts to overcome this are mentioned in the links I gave.
A second problem was self-discharge - not great if you are in the middle of the wilderness and recharging is not easy - that may be one reason why a lot of National Geographic shooters use Canon.
Thirdly, although I can't remember the precise details, I believe that the operating temperature is restricted compared to NiMiH batteries.
All these issues are now being addressed, but explain why Canon did not switch the pro bodies to the lighter and more powerful Lions earlier.
Regards,
DaveMart...Show more →
Li ion/ Li Poly batterys have some of the best self discharge rates of any batterys around. Something like a loss of 2% PER MONTH. They also work fine in the cold -- much better then NiMH actually. The only problems with Lithium batteries are the much more complex charge cycle and cell damage from overdischarging (negated by having the camera detect the battery voltage which they already do for the NiMH packs). There is also no conditioning needed, no damage from charging when partially discharged and substantually more energy.
A 1D pack is what? 2200 mah You could easily get 5000 mah or more in a lithium battery the same size and it would still weigh much less. Double or more the battery life anyone?
DaveMart wrote:
Lion batteries have had issues which NiMiH batteries did not.
For a start safety was problematic - the Sony problere an obvious example, but the technology was inherently dangerous -efforts to overcome this are mentioned in the links I gave.
A second problem was self-discharge - not great if you are in the middle of the wilderness and recharging is not easy - that may be one reason why a lot of National Geographic shooters use Canon.
Thirdly, although I can't remember the precise details, I believe that the operating temperature is restricted compared to NiMiH batteries.
All these issues are now being addressed, but explain why Canon did not switch the pro bodies to the lighter and more powerful Lions earlier.
Regards,
DaveMart...Show more →
Li ion/ Li Poly batterys have some of the best self discharge rates of any batterys around. Something like a loss of 2% PER MONTH. They also work fine in the cold -- much better then NiMH actually. The only problems with Lithium batteries are the much more complex charge cycle and cell damage from overdischarging (negated by having the camera detect the battery voltage which they already do for the NiMH packs). There is also no conditioning needed, no damage from charging when partially discharged and substantually more energy.
A 1D pack is what? 2200 mah You could easily get 5000 mah or more in a lithium battery the same size and it would still weigh much less. Double or more the battery life anyone?
DynoMoHum wrote:
I really can't imagine why the 1D bodies continue to use NiMH. As far as I know, the only thing NiMH has going for it over the current LiION is possibly in high power output... but I don't believe that any camera application should require power output greater then what the LiION can put out now.
In RC and other electric vehicles, NiMH is slightly more practical then typical LiION is, but in this application people want to pull more then 10C discharge current rates... No camera I know of should be anywhere near those kinds of discharge rates. I guess todays typical LiION are good for around 1C, which should be like 1.5 amps or so. If you ran multiple cells in parallel, you could double that, and surely the 1D doesn't need to pull that much current. The new A123 System cells will handle 30C discharge rates... (if you want some interesting reading on these new cells, check this out... http://slkelectronics.com/DeWalt/index.htm )
The only speculation I have would be... that maybe Canon had chosen the specs for this battery system back before LiION was as viable as it is today, and just decided to keep what they originally used, rather then have to re-work the entire power system for the 1D line... if that's the case... then I'd say they are long over due for some new batteries...
...Show more →
Well, I didn't just invent the idea of operating in a wider temperature range - they are also (or were) longer lasting, important at a time batteries were expensive.
If you can't imagine any reasons and don't want to accept those I offer, perhaps you could do some googling as they self-evidently have continued to do so, and haven't just done that to be awkward or for fun - there have actually been umpteen threads comparing the two technologies, and until recently at least there was a lot to be said in favour of NiMiH.
Regards,
DaveMart
Well I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree... I personally know of no valid advantages that NiMh would have over LiION, with the exception of applications where current rates exceed 1C, and as I've said previously, there are easy ways to over come that issue if all you need is 2C or so...
How about it?