Unfortunately, this thread has become stillborn. So much angst, goading (or should that be "toading") and tediousness. It's too bad because despite some early flaws, the camera is an excellent tool that some will choose to use because of its features and benefits and others won't because they are comfortable with the features, benefits, costs, etc. of another system.
Does someone have a picture of a dead horse that could be flogged for six or seven pages?
What we're trying to achieve here by criticism is a redesign of the camera electronics to bring it in line with modern technology. And free upgrades for those who poneyed up money.
We're not flogging a dead horse, we're trying to housetrain a cute little puppy. Which is pooing magenta goo all over our carpet.
On the moire in M8 files issue: FWIW, when I first got mine I specifically shot a variety of fabrics to try and see if I could generate any recumbent patterns. The result? No ill effects to report in any of them. I am not saying the M8 is free of moire, all I am saying is I tried to generate some and could not.
~~~
PS: Full disclosure for this site since I don't think I've posted here on the Fred Miranda site on my M8 experiences yet: I decided *not* to keep my M8.
I used film M's for years so am familiar with them and their idiosynchrosies. I found it an excellent camera all around with stellar lenses that generates files with stunning clarity. However, I found that in my older-age laziness, I prefer the benefit of "thumb-button" AF (I set all my Canons to focus with the "*" button) and WYSIWYG SLR framing. So, as good as the files are with the M8, in the end I'll settle for a bit less image quality and a bit more time post processing my Canon files to get my desired result just to be able to keep the Canon operational conveniences.
I also do *NOT* approve of the way Leica is dealing with the IR bleed issue. Telling customers that just paid $4800 for a camera to throw a filter over your lens to fix our screw up is IMO an insult to me as a customer.
I am *sure* folks on both sides will now disagree with my choice and opinions (why I don't bother posting here anymore), but please understand it works for me and I am not suggesting anybody else follow it. So as the saying goes, YMMV...
, Guy I saw those posts earlier and was going to warn you ahead of time not to take the measure-bait, but alas I was too late. Me, I'm happily making and selling prints from my DMR.
> Crap once again a flawed test , would you please go back and look at your two images your focus on the M8 is NOT on the rear window like the 5D ...
> ...focus points are a choice we have to make.
I chose the 'Official UK Import' Sticker. It says so in the review. It also says that I took several shots with each camera, carefully varying focus by very slight amounts each time, and then I chose the best resolving results from each camera. The focus variations were so slight that there were many candidates for best resolution, although some shots were visibly front and back focussed. As I said in my review, my test was done for me, and to suit my own working methods, although I have described the test method with some care.
> I think the edge artifacts are caused by the method of upressing.
I have updated the test with an M8 crop made with bicubic interpolation. It looks as expected: there is no significant difference in resolution and the colour fringes around the specular highlight is still visible.
> ...One little area of one image with one lens at one distance
As explained this was a test of M8 versus 5D. I continue to have no expectation of radically different performance between a sensor's centre and its corners, so I felt the center would show us more about the camera and less about the (different) lenses. Looking at the cyan vignetting on some of the M8 wideangle shots appearing here, I might have been optimistic.
Let's get the fact straight.
Canon people don't initiate the comparisons or discussions about DMR or M8. It is Leica people that bring up the comparison with 1DsII or 5D. It seems that they have given themselves the mission to prove that 10MP Leicas are better than 12/16 MP Canons.
There have been multiple issues reported over the net. And Leica officially announced that (1) cameras need to be sent for the firmware fix (2) Old Lenses need to be bit-coded (3) IR filters are required on every lens. It don't think it is unreasonable to call the camera premature.
The criticisms are against the company not against any person. Why do someone need to feel "lynching" ? As a matter of fact, I see the opposite. Those who report the experience unfavorable to Leica, they are bullied to be shut up by other owners. Why should it be the case ? How does it help everyone to get the improved or fixed product that they paid for ?
Jack Flesher wrote:
...in my older-age laziness, I prefer the benefit of "thumb-button" AF (I set all my Canons to focus with the "*" button) and WYSIWYG SLR framing...
Jack-
This doesn't sound like laziness, and probably you're saying this to put the burden on yourself, and I appreciate that. This is a very valid point and one that can be made without being old or lazy. I'm sure you have the experience and skill to use manual focus, rangefinder, or whatever piece of equipment you wanted to, if it was worth it to you. In my case, I am both old and lazy, but I just sold the 5D (which is wonderful to use) in favor of the Leica.
Of course, I also still use film, but that's another story...
geoffreyg wrote:
Pretty sound analysis. The tone is, appropriately, considered and thoughtful.
Really? I found it to be a few observations and opinions surrounded by a bunch of non-specific noise in an attempt to sound objective and important. Much like many academic papers. How does the camera handle? How does the output look? Lets not get into that subjective stuff when we can play Leica intelligentsia.
I agree with the 'let's not BTDH".Ity does get tedious. BUT, it is the price we pay for an open dialog.
The simple '...ignore it...' advice curiously seems to work.
No rush BTW on the R>M. Whenever, I can only use one at a time.
Unlike Guy, I am a "ONE M8" kind of guy. (Boy, talk about a messy sentence! )
Guy,
Very nice shots. I notice the release on the M8; cold out there, yes? :-)
Jack,
hate to admit it, but the 5D shots are pretty damn good! (can I say that?). Nothing wrong with your 'eye' either. Good stuff all around
But with an M8, and DMR and a mess of MF equipment, I am beyond saturation. I am a de facto 'collector' (a rather inflated title for somebody who has more stuff than he can use!)
Great outing guys. Ignore the trolls and keep the images and commenrts coming.
Jack Flesher wrote:
On the moire in M8 files issue: FWIW, when I first got mine I specifically shot a variety of fabrics to try and see if I could generate any recumbent patterns. The result? No ill effects to report in any of them. I am not saying the M8 is free of moire, all I am saying is I tried to generate some and could not.
I'm interested in this subject as I want to understand the pros and cons of the AA filters.
Moire is one kind of artifact of aliasing. What I see from the M8 DNG files are Jaggie diagonal lines - exactly like screen fonts on the LCD display when "ClearType" is not turned on.
O.K. now I am getting sucked into this. First of I was one of those people who traded in a 1Ds2 for a R9/DMR along with a bunch of Canon glass. I couldnt be happier! I make my living in the home audio world and this reminds me of the debates people have in that arena. My speakers are better, my amp is more resolving, my wires add less grain than yours. What people fail to realize is that people have different ideas about what makes one product better than another. People have differnt tastes. What is great for one, is not good for another. As far as quirks with M8 go, no one who is harping on this has ever owned an exotic car or a high end home audio product. I remember reading an article about a F1 Mclaren (street car) that kept over heating during review because they were testing it in over 100 degree temps. If the same people that are harping on the M8 were doing this review they would conclude that the car was premature and is not up to par with their daily drivers that can drive in this heat all day long. These people would fail to see that the Mclaren is one of the most advanced and best performing street cars of its time. There is a dvd player that I sell that has been regarded as 1 of the best as far as picture and sound quality are concerned. Because this player is using such cutting edge software on occasion it fails to read esoteric discs. The same harping M8 people would again say the unit is premature and does not perform as properly as theirs. I appreciate Guy and others that have taken their time in posting some amazing shots from their cameras, and I hope they are not pushed away from this forum by all of the harping.
Well, Guy has done the most posting, so he has done the most harping (dwelling). Are you saying Guy is driving himself away from this forum? Could be a left brain/ right brain internal conflict thing with Guy, I suppose. I heard Guy and Pondria are actually the same person.........
shirozina wrote:
Jaggies (alising) on lines at an angle to the sensor can seen on the 5D and to a lesser extent the 1ds2 as well.
Agreed. Everyone has to make the right level of compromise between the softness and the jagginess. With Bayer, the Jaggie caused by the alsiasing can introduce false colors. I've seen it.
dcmiller wrote:
Well, Guy has done the most posting, so he has done the most harping (dwelling). Are you saying Guy is driving himself away from this forum? Could be a left brain/ right brain internal conflict thing with Guy, I suppose. I heard Guy and Pondria are actually the same person.........
Pondria wrote:
Let's get the fact straight.
Canon people don't initiate the comparisons or discussions about DMR or M8. It is Leica people that bring up the comparison with 1DsII or 5D. It seems that they have given themselves the mission to prove that 10MP Leicas are better than 12/16 MP Canons.
Yes, that's because most of us doing the comparison also have (or had) Canon 12 or 16 MP cameras.
There have been multiple issues reported over the net. And Leica officially announced that (1) cameras need to be sent for the firmware fix (2) Old Lenses need to be bit-coded (3) IR filters are required on every lens. It don't think it is unreasonable to call the camera premature.
Virtually every major iteration of professional cameras, film or digital, has had difficulties once public rollout happens. This was true of the Canon 1d series, the Nikon D1 series, Phase backs, Rollei 6000 cameras, Leica R8, Nikon F3, F4, F5, Hasselblad 203 to name a few.... Digital merely compounds this problem because of the system complexity.
The criticisms are against the company not against any person. Why do someone need to feel "lynching" ? As a matter of fact, I see the opposite. Those who report the experience unfavorable to Leica, they are bullied to be shut up by other owners. Why should it be the case ? How does it help everyone to get the improved or fixed product that they paid for ?
What boggles my mind is that most of the people complaining aren't actually owners, but non-owners. Once again the M8 thread has drifted way off course, and those of us actually wanting to learn more about it from actual users are having to pick our way through the minefield of turds dropped by people uprezzing mediocre handheld test shots.
I love it: the 5D gets compared to a truck/bus, and the M8 to a McClaren F1! The problem is that according to my test, the truck is putting in slightly faster lap times without spinning off.
We have got to be less emotional about all this. This thread is, so we have been told, a reasonable place to discuss the M8 and its performance relative to alternatives. It's just a camera. I did the best test I could, in the time available, to assess the merits of the M8 for my purposes versus my current gear and I've shared it for the benefit of those asking the same questions as I am. I welcome criticism of my test, just as I did last time.
> ...no one who is harping on this has ever owned an exotic car or a high end home audio product
Does a series of Arkiv Borons count? None has ever failed in any way. Seriously, it doesn't make much sense to suggest that customers should expect products to fail in use just because they are "high end".
For me, images posted at web resolution, although very professionally taken and post-processed, dont tell me what I need to know about this camera. Seeing how its performance compares to my current equipment is a great way for me to assess its relevance to my needs. I look forward to seeing Carsten's comparison. Similarities to the D200 have been mentioned. That would be an interesting comparison too.
I hope that what brings people back to this forum is the open nature of discussion and the fact that people are free to speak their minds here.
, Guy I saw those posts earlier and was going to warn you ahead of time not to take the measure-bait, but alas I was too late. Me, I'm happily making and selling prints from my DMR. 