fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3              90              92              104       105       end
  

Archive 2006 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

  
 
Tentacle
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.91 #1 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Remember that the Photokina starts on the 26th, that's a tuesday. That leaves a normal business day coming monday to do last-minute... well, last-day, announcements.

We already know that Fujifilm will make a "Development announcement" regarding the S5 Pro on monday.



Sep 22, 2006 at 09:01 AM
danmitchell
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.91 #2 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Regarding "I've come across the statement he makes that "in-body IS isn't visible in the viewfinder" several times"

I wonder if having no IS in the viewfinder would really be such a big deal. If it turned out that there were significant advantages to IS in the body (and arguably there are) I think I'd put up with the small amount of vibration in the viewfinder, knowing that the camera was compensating for it in the captured image. (Its not like were talking about major motion here, IS isn't going to deal with that anyway.)

Regarding "EVF?"

Electronic View Finder, like those found on video cameras and point and shoot digital cameras, but (we assume) of much higher quality.

Regarding "Absolutely. People will also fail to see half of the benefits, purely because it isn't what they wanted..."

Or, more likely, they may see the "benefits" but not feel that they are significant enough to be worth the cost of upgrading. Example: Few people with a 20D found the upgrade to the 30D to be compelling, though I suspect that they could see the advantage of, for example, a larger LCD. Advantage? Yes. Enough of an advantage to warrant an upgrade? Probably not.

Or, put another way, if it "isn't what they wanted," then it probably doesn't provide the benefits they were looking for.



Sep 22, 2006 at 09:11 AM
DaveMart
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.91 #3 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


timbop wrote:
Anybody else concerned that it's the end of the week before photokina and nothing new has been announced? They usually spill the beans early, so either they are going for a big splash on the first day or there is nothing else.


I think that is it - if they were going to announce a 1DsIII they would have said something by Thursday at the latest I would guess - apparently Canon reps have been telling people that there is no more to come at the moment too.
Presumably they are going to do a 'big bang' of Canon DSLR's with DIGICIII in the new year - very hopeful, I would have thought, as it may give a clue that they have been able to move things on quite a way, wiht perhaps an upgrade to the basic sensors as well as the processing.
They have the G7 out there too, which presumably they might(?) be able to use to test out some aspects of DIGICIII in test bed models and give it it's final tweaks for DSLR use. Not sure how applicable a P & S is to the DSLR's though, but perhaps it will help to reveal any flaws they have not picked up.
Regards,
DaveMart



Sep 22, 2006 at 09:13 AM
Philippe Arnez
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.91 #4 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


actually monday is kind of a press day in cologne. so i guess if they announce something, it will be on monday, and will be all over the internet before tuesday

but it is odd, that hardly anything has 'leaked' since the 24th of august. alhtough i think the mentioning of the 40D by color foto probably is a true 'hint'.

or maybe it is just a proof, that canon can hold a secret if they really want to

you can
CANON





Sep 22, 2006 at 12:30 PM
dinoadventures
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.91 #5 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Monito wrote:
Three things have arrived:

1) Pixel peeping

2) A slew of new, inexperienced users

3) The internet amplification effect for squeaky wheels

Any "serious plunge" is illusory.


While I agree with you about the itemized points above, my comment was from personal experience. For example, I haven't found a Canon lens from B&H to be dust-free on the first copy in the past few years. I've had to sort through several copies of L lenses to find one without dust and small hairs on the optics. I've heard horror stories from their staff about 1DsII's rife with internal dust.



Sep 22, 2006 at 01:21 PM
timbop
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.91 #6 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


dinoadventures wrote:
While I agree with you about the itemized points above, my comment was from personal experience. For example, I haven't found a Canon lens from B&H to be dust-free on the first copy in the past few years. I've had to sort through several copies of L lenses to find one without dust and small hairs on the optics. I've heard horror stories from their staff about 1DsII's rife with internal dust.


Yeah, no doubt that sort of thing is more prevalent. I think he was talking more in the area of truly "bad" or strongly misaligned copies, as opposed to less severe but nonetheless annoying issues. In the old days when you didn't ordinarily print bigger than 11x14 or so (at least I never could with what I had available to me). Now on a 19 inch monitor I can view an image that is proportionally 30x45, so that any imperfections are much more noticable. They were always there in the print, but so miniscule you didn't see them. That's why I avoid looking at an image at more than 50%



Sep 22, 2006 at 01:37 PM
Koivulehto
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.91 #7 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Monito wrote:
Three things have arrived:

1) Pixel peeping

2) A slew of new, inexperienced users

3) The internet amplification effect for squeaky wheels

Any "serious plunge" is illusory.


People, probably pretty low salaried people do manufacture and pack our gear. Not just for Canon: There is usually dust on both sides of the B&W MRC UV filters right out of package, and one which I bought this year has a spot which seems to have no coating at all. And these are about the most expensive UV filters you can find, from Schneider in Germany.

Another anecdote: My old all-metal 50 f/1.4 FD lens with code R1116 (= November 1978) has very rough looking rim (like covered in coarse sand) in its backmost lens, very visible when looking into the lens from front. My brand new plastic-clad 50 f/1.4 EF lens is absolutely flawless in this respect.

I can't either see any systematic plunge here, just plain human errors every now, and also back then (in the old days).



Sep 22, 2006 at 04:25 PM
Roy NN7DX
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.91 #8 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


In camera IS... Lens IS...
Does anyone know yet: Is DSLR auto-focusing better with lens based IS?
Is the auto-focusing gizmo going to wiggle-wobble like the viewfinder? If it does, it seems like AF might be impared when compared to lens based IS...
Don't get me wrong... I want in-body IS to be very good... I want options... I am just wondering how AF will work...




Sep 23, 2006 at 01:16 AM
Tentacle
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.91 #9 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Roy NN7DX wrote:
In camera IS... Lens IS...
Does anyone know yet: Is DSLR auto-focusing better with lens based IS?
Is the auto-focusing gizmo going to wiggle-wobble like the viewfinder? If it does, it seems like AF might be impared when compared to lens based IS...
Don't get me wrong... I want in-body IS to be very good... I want options... I am just wondering how AF will work...


Good point on AF. You may be on to something. However, it's beside the point. For once and for all, lets get this over with: In-lens IS is better than in-body IS!

In-lens IS also works on film, it also stabilises the viewfinder, it can be optimised for the specific lens optics and we don't need speculation at all on if it will work on FF because we know it does.

But, that's not the right question to ask.

What it boils down to is economics: The premium of in-lens IS is huge, every IS lens carries an extra fee. Contrast this to in-body IS: One investment and you're set. You'll have IS "on every lens" because it's on the body. And erhh, "At what price premium again ?" Both Sony Alpha 100 and Pentax K10D have a US$ 899 list price (body only) while the 30D body had an introduction list price of US $1399.

I don't have a money tree in my back yard. Oh, wait, I don't even have a back yard So even if in-lens IS is superior, I'd be very very pleased to settle for the inferior in-body IS which will work on all my lenses, at no premium whatsover.



Sep 23, 2006 at 04:51 AM
IFeito
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.91 #10 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Hi Guys,

I've been following this thread since it's inception and finally I think I've got something to say.

Canon and Nikon can have the best of both worlds if they just come up with a stabilized kit lens that puts the complete package at a competitive level with Sony and Pentax bodies.

Granted, you will not have IS on all lenses, but at entry level you will be competing with a stabilized offer that's better and a lot more sellable than the options by the competitors. I'll be willing to bet that Canon and Nikon are both working on this option.

Ignacio



Sep 23, 2006 at 05:17 PM
timbop
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.91 #11 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


IFeito wrote:
Hi Guys,

I've been following this thread since it's inception and finally I think I've got something to say.

Canon and Nikon can have the best of both worlds if they just come up with a stabilized kit lens that puts the complete package at a competitive level with Sony and Pentax bodies.

Granted, you will not have IS on all lenses, but at entry level you will be competing with a stabilized offer that's better and a lot more sellable than the options by the competitors. I'll be willing to bet that Canon and Nikon are both working on this option.

Ignacio


Actually, as I mentioned a while ago, if the 17-85 were a little cheaper it would provide what you suggested. The 70-300IS is also a fantastic lens, easily trumping anything cheaper. If they package the whole shebang with an XTi for $1700 they esily beat the in-body IS crowd - provided Joe consumer recognizes the value.



Sep 23, 2006 at 05:51 PM
FAU4U
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.91 #12 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread



After reading through all the chat rooms I find it amazing that people can feel a company like Canon could show up to a worldwide show such as Photokina with an empty bag. Presentation of already announced entry-level camera is not the venue for Photokina. Three years ago Canon began the development of their 1D 16 million pixel camera. 30 months ago they began beta testing the 1Ds2 camera. 24 months ago they released it at Photokina. 30 months ago the 1Ds began the development of what will currently be released (six months ago it was out for beta testing) and I'll bet my $.15 that there will be an announcement in their pro-lineup next week. If there is not a release it would have been due to a catastrophic last-minute failure with their beta testing. That would be big news. And quite frankly I doubt it.

Several weeks ago there were big question marks on whether their new the third level processor would be available this year or next. There are/were plenty of doubting Charlie's about that too. Those doubts came to rest when Canon announced its recent consumer cameras, G7 and SD900. The D2 processor is the major reason why the presence day 16 million pixel camera fires at four frames per second. Putting the D3 processor in the present day 1DSmk2 camera would result in an action sports camera and 16 million pixels at eight frames a second, just from a throughput perspective. The only technology improvement with the above is the development of the third level processor which we know exists. That alone would be huge news, 16 million pixels at eight frames a second for their new 1D3. Having watched this company pretty closely over the last 12 years my guess is that we will see something(s) exciting next week from Canon.

My remarks regarding losing the lead comes back to a foot ball analogy. When the coaching staff prepares for the next week's football game or season, they don't engineer the win for a one-point victory. They want to crush the opponent, as soon as possible, and dominate the entire match.

Canon’s 1D team is a separate group of engineers/staff that have a mission separate from the other teams within the Canon organization. Canon has an entry level camera team, and a consumer camera team, among other groups. They all have different missions, budgets, and schedules. They operate independently. And they have different schedules when they release products. There are overlaps with regard to the imagers and processors of course. You will see that all/most of the new consumer cameras and the entry-level single lens reflex cameras will be using the D3 processor.

If Canon relaxes because they feel they have a lead, trouble will commence, and the competition will pounce if they perceive a weakness.

Sony is a force to contend with. They have huge capital and human resources; and have been making digital imagers for their multimillion dollar network studio high definition television cameras for many years. Only recently has that elevated to high definition. Go into most studios in New York City; go on field at any/most NFL football game. Look around what do you see,,, Sony digital video cameras attached to huge 40x high-resolution image stabilized Canon zoom lenses. Now that Sony owns the Minolta camera company, they possess a footprint to jump in to the single lens reflex market, with an installed base. Couple that with their ability to produce high definition low noise low light level digital imagers, it makes for a huge potential competitive force, and Canon knows it. This is not the time for Canon to take a rest in the third quarter.

Everyone has their eyes on Nikon over the next few years; I have my eyes on Sony. SONY has the in-house capability for fabricating imagers they have experience making them for Nikon and they have in-house capability for making high-quality high-resolution image stabilized lenses. For those professionals that want lens name recognition, Sony has a multi-decade experience / relationship with Zeiss.

The wonderful occurrence with these high technology products is the enthusiasm that is generated in our modern society. We are creating the hype for these new product releases. Canon knows the schedule of Photokina which has been there for years. they have been using this venue for releases of their flagship cameras dating back to 1998. The PMA show in February of each year is really not the venue that Canon chooses to announce new flagship professional equipment. PMA brings a venue for Canon adding features like the release of their 1Dmk2N, adding the N symbol for some improvements, LCD, Color Management Styles… You don’t see “N” added to Canon cameras at Photokina… Maybe this will be a huge disappointment, and a big house cleaning of Canon engineers/product managers,,, however, I seriously doubt it.

Have a great week and pay attention to the Photokina announcements, and all the speculation will come to rest early next week.



Sep 23, 2006 at 10:01 PM
Gino02GT
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.91 #13 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Roy NN7DX wrote:
In camera IS... Lens IS...
Does anyone know yet: Is DSLR auto-focusing better with lens based IS?
Is the auto-focusing gizmo going to wiggle-wobble like the viewfinder? If it does, it seems like AF might be impared when compared to lens based IS...
Don't get me wrong... I want in-body IS to be very good... I want options... I am just wondering how AF will work...



The image sensor has nothing to do with autofocus. The autofocus sensors are in the bottom of the camera; there's a small sub-mirror behind the main mirror (which is partially transmissive) that bounces the central portion of the image downwards to the sensors.

Put your camera into cleaning mode and check out the bottom of the mirror box, you'll see little holes resembling the layout of your autofocus points, they're in there.



Sep 23, 2006 at 11:03 PM
Roy NN7DX
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.91 #14 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Gino02GT wrote (excerpt):
The image sensor has nothing to do with autofocus. The autofocus sensors are in the bottom of the camera; there's a small sub-mirror behind the main mirror (which is partially transmissive) that bounces the central portion of the image downwards to the sensors.


OK then... Does some other camera maker use another AF system that might be enhanced by in-body IS? If I am getting this right, only in-lens IS will "assist" auto-focus... Is this right?



Sep 23, 2006 at 11:59 PM
DaveEP
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.91 #15 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


'In-Lens' stabilisation 'should' allow the AF to lock more easily because the focus point is steady.

If the AF sensors are not on the moving (in body IS) sensor itself, and are still separate from the main sensor, there is no difference than using a non IS lens on a non IS body.

So, the question you should be asking yourself is this: Does my AF system work better with my IS lenses, or my non IS lenses? If you can't tell the difference, then in lens IS is not helping you at all. I focus is better with the IS lens then you have your answer.

Don't confuse focus/out of focus with sharp/not sharp if you are using a long lens at low shutter speeds. They are not the same thing at all.




Sep 24, 2006 at 07:37 AM
Tim Gray
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.91 #16 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


FAU4U wrote:

After reading through all the chat rooms I find it amazing that people can feel a company like Canon could show up to a worldwide show such as Photokina with an empty bag.


IF nothing shows up then this is what I think:

I agree that Canon would not intentionally show up without a major announcement. But this is why they don't announce until they're ready to ship (unlike some other mfgs). Complications arise. The "speculation" in this regard that makes the most sense to me is that they were absolutely on track for a 22 mpx 1ds2 replacement (but without the anti dust technology of the new Rebel), but their "beta/dealer/marketing" folks basically said they were nuts not to include that on the product (not sure I necessarily agree, but I'm a survery group of one). I believe they will announce when they're ready to go to market - but won't wait for PMA, unless it's pure coincidence.





Sep 24, 2006 at 08:04 AM
timbop
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.91 #17 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Roy NN7DX wrote:
In camera IS... Lens IS...
Does anyone know yet: Is DSLR auto-focusing better with lens based IS?
Is the auto-focusing gizmo going to wiggle-wobble like the viewfinder? If it does, it seems like AF might be impared when compared to lens based IS...
Don't get me wrong... I want in-body IS to be very good... I want options... I am just wondering how AF will work...



It's a very interesting twist on the story, and it does make sense. As you discovered, a THIRD benefit of in-len IS is that for small targets at long focal lengths it is easier to keep AF lock. Not sure if the other posters that jumped on you quite got that sublety, but it does give canon another point to make when answering critics and cynics alike.



Sep 24, 2006 at 09:06 AM
Mark Shaxted
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.91 #18 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Canon stated that 2007 will be a big year for DSLRs - including better DR. It's also their 70th anniversary.

So why would they release a load of stuff a couple of months before? I'm sure they won't. Look at what's in the pipeline...

new 1 series (maybe x2)
new 5D
potential 40D

If there's big things in the making next year, there's no way they'll release a new 1 series without extended DR (assuming that's where the real breakthough is) then release a 5D replacement with it - I'm pretty certain the 1 series will get this stuff first.



Sep 24, 2006 at 09:17 AM
Tentacle
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.91 #19 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


timbop wrote:
[...]

It's a very interesting twist on the story, and it does make sense. As you discovered, a THIRD benefit of in-len IS is that for small targets at long focal lengths it is easier to keep AF lock. Not sure if the other posters that jumped on you quite got that sublety, but it does give canon another point to make when answering critics and cynics alike.


An AF sensor is a contrast detector. Within the AF area there needs to be a sharp dark/light transition, of a given magnitude (in relation to OOF lack-of-contrast) and then it's done. It makes no difference if that detection is done on one side within the AF area and the next measurement detects a contrast peak elsewhere in the same AF area.

Now, this is a concern if you sway so much (super-tele, handheld) that you let your point of contrast drift outside the AF area. But, we've already sort of reached the conclusion that in-body IS isn't good at super-tele stabilisation anyway, so this point is somewhat moot.



Sep 24, 2006 at 09:19 AM
Juan55
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.91 #20 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


timbop wrote:
It's a very interesting twist on the story, and it does make sense. As you discovered, a THIRD benefit of in-len IS is that for small targets at long focal lengths it is easier to keep AF lock. Not sure if the other posters that jumped on you quite got that sublety, but it does give canon another point to make when answering critics and cynics alike.


Well, this depends in the body you have, small targets with long lenses in a body like the one I have (350D with 7 AF points) working with AI Servo is waste of time. It took to me a while until I have got a proper set up to take sharp photos to birds in flight with my 350D + EF 300 f/4 L IS.

That´s one of the reasons because now I am looking for a new body



Sep 24, 2006 at 09:25 AM
1       2       3              90              92              104       105       end




FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3              90              92              104       105       end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account