fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3              50              52              104       105       end
  

Archive 2006 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

  
 
jgriffin
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.51 #1 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Dan Martin wrote:

My friend at Canon who was responsible for the 400D info I posted a few weeks ago is saying no new 1 series this year...He says that Canon does an excellent job of protecting information within their company, which is why leaks are rare.

Apparently, if your friend is legit, not that good a job at protecting information



Aug 29, 2006 at 12:06 AM
jwil
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.51 #2 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


jgriffin wrote:
Apparently, if your friend is legit, not that good a job at protecting information.




oh the irony.



Aug 29, 2006 at 12:13 AM
wjmeyer
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.51 #3 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Guy Mancuso wrote:
...Let' s face it the 1dMKII to the 1dMKIIn what was the selling point a larger LCD and the upgrades could have easily been in a firmware upgrade . i may be missing something but my point is more money for not a heck of a lot gain. This cheapens the product line in peoples minds and will catch up to them. Folks will just start passing on new offerings and wait for version 2 or 3 down the road....


This is exactly why I didn't upgrade my 1D MkII to the "n" version, I'm content to stick with the plain old MkII until something much better comes out, and I'm not talking about megapixels as a whole, I want something with even better high ISO performance (6400 would be a big plus) and better DR and improved AF tracking/AI Servo, etc. What I'm hoping for is an improvement on what I consider to be one of the best camera's ever built (for it's purpose) and have no need to upgrade until I have good reason to because a simple bump in megapixels just isn't going to cut it...



Aug 29, 2006 at 12:26 AM
wjmeyer
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.51 #4 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


If Digic III is for real, I wonder what real improvements we'll see

Faster AF performance?

Higher ISO capability?

New and improved flash performance?

Faster write speeds to CF cards?

I don't know, just guessing here, anyone have any better insight?



Aug 29, 2006 at 12:29 AM
Frank Jr.
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.51 #5 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


If Digic III is for real, I wonder what real improvements we'll see

Faster AF performance?

Higher ISO capability?

New and improved flash performance?

Faster write speeds to CF cards?


With improved dynamic range? Ok I`ll take one. (If my wife were alive she`d skin me for this)



Aug 29, 2006 at 01:09 AM
Frode
Offline
• •
[X]
p.51 #6 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


wjmeyer wrote:
This is exactly why I didn't upgrade my 1D MkII to the "n" version, I'm content to stick with the plain old MkII until something much better comes out, and I'm not talking about megapixels as a whole, I want something with even better high ISO performance (6400 would be a big plus) and better DR and improved AF tracking/AI Servo, etc. What I'm hoping for is an improvement on what I consider to be one of the best camera's ever built (for it's purpose) and have no need to upgrade until I have good reason to because a simple
...Show more

Agree!



Aug 29, 2006 at 01:56 AM
clocksley
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.51 #7 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


If DIGIC III means that the images are written to the card quicker then I might be tempted - at weddings there is a bit of a wait if I take a burst on my 1Ds II. I'd like the red light off within a couple of seconds of taking the last image.


Aug 29, 2006 at 04:53 AM
Dan Martin
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.51 #8 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


jwil wrote:


oh the irony.


Ah the wonders of a misquote...

If you included the info between the "..." I said the branches don't know anything until a month before the release. The info I posted was only a couple weeks before the official introduction.

If nobody appreciates the info, I'll just stop posting it. Believe what you want.



Aug 29, 2006 at 07:24 AM
Tom_W
Online
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.51 #9 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


jwil wrote:
I think you might have just provided the key yourself with "Several major distributors have low inventory levels of the 30D and Canon is trying to fill those orders now."

I could be wrong, and it wouldn't be the first time but I've seen this pattern more than a few times with product transitions. The 30D never seemed to be that much of an upgrade, I thought that when it was released and still do. It didn't follow the upgrade path of the D30-D60-10D-20D and seemed a bit crippled. A "major" upgrade and it amounted to picture styles, a bigger
...Show more

Many of us thought that the 30D should have been called a 20Dn, as it is a 20D with additional features. Still a great camera, but not a major upgrade that a new name would suggest. IMHO, of course.

And this is for the second most important segment (financially) of their digital camera line. Either a) Canon management really didn't understand what the competition was up to and they got caught with their pants down, b) they arrogantly thought the competition couldn't be so close to closing the feature gap in that segment, or c) they ran into technical problems getting higher res CMOS out the door in time for the 30D launch.

I'm betting on C, and that would explain inventory constraints as they try to clear the channel now in advance of a replacement.


I lean towards "C" myself, but I believe that it's more than a high-res sensor that they were/are working on. It's the next generation of sensor and processor that is holding things up.

It didn't take very long to get a 10 mpx sensor into the XT/350D at today's "digic II" level, but that wasn't the plan for the 30D, nor the 1D2. I think Canon brought out the 30D and the 1D2N as a means of holding the place while the new stuff is put into production. They didn't want to "tool up" for a short run of 10 mpx 30D's when the next technology step was so close. The XT is a different story - the sensor is produced separately from that of the 30D, and it can hold the present Digic II technology for quite a while. It will sell well.

I'd be interested in two things, first supply chain conditions of the 20D and what the ETA is (from Canon) on 30D shipments to suppliers. IF the 20D is drying up and 30D's are forecast for more than 30 days then I think a new body stands a better than 60% chance of hitting at Photokina.

If Canon purposely retards production of the 30D, not only does channel inventory on that model dry up, and consumers may opt for a cheaper 20D as well ('it's almost the same thing after all' says the sales guy). Supply of both models go the way
...Show more

New stuff is coming, but I don't think too many people really know when. It would be nice for Canon if they had a 30D replacement on the shelves before the Christmas season. I'm sure that they'd also like a new 1D II replacement ready before the opening kickoff of the NFL season as well.

One of those two might happen, but I wouldn't bet on both.



Aug 29, 2006 at 08:15 AM
thedoctah
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.51 #10 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


So I bought into the Canon line starting with the 20D, and it's about time to add another body. I expected the the 30D to compete with the D200 from a pixel count perspective, and instead what we got was a minor evolutionary "upgrade". To be perfectly honest, few 20D owners are going to "upgrade" to a 30D. The 30D offers very little incentive to a 20D owner to upgrade. I fully expected Canon to offer the 30D at 10MP, and if it delivered the same image quality at 10MP along with the other improvements, it would have indeed provided some incentive to upgrade.

The 5D is a major upgrade, but with a huge price penalty. There's nothing in the gap, which is difficult to fathom. In order to upgrade from a 20D, you have to lay out more than double the cash. I can't help but see this as a gaping hole in the lineup. Add to this the fact that we now have a 10MP entry-level DSLR, and it's clear that there's an unmet part of the marketplace in Canon's current lineup. And if you look at the 1 series offerings, you see similar stagnation. 1DsMkII is due for an upgrade, and the 1DMkIIN is the 30D of the 1D line. What are the potential causes of this lack of innovation at the upper ends of the lineup (5D excepted)? Well, it could be that Canon is simply resting on their collective laurels and trying to extend the profits of engineering work already completed. It could be that some technological setbacks have forced Canon to provide only minor, almost cosmetic upgrades simply to keep Canon in the news. It could be that Canon is developing something revolutionary that simply isn't ready. I'm hoping it's simply a matter of Canon not wanting to fill the pipeline with cameras that are going to be considered inferior when the new models are released. The 30D and 1DMkIIN are "holding pattern" cameras. With the exception of the larger LCDs, they could have been firmware releases for the existing cameras (and that's something that would be awful nice for consumers- even if they weren't free, but they should be.) To me the delay in releasing true updates to the existing cameras comes down to one of three possibilities: management screw ups, a failure to execute in engineering/manufacturing, or the need to walk a fine line due to impending revolutionary upgrades. Given Canon's history of making significant engineering statements, I am inclined to believe they have something up their sleeve. Either sensors able to capture increased dynamic range, or higher sensitivity with lower noise, or something significant.

I sure hope it's something like this, because Nikon has been delivering as of late, and Canon needs to answer. In the entry level, Nikon was answered. But currently Canon has no answer for the D200. The 5D costs nearly twice as much. And the 1dMkIIN's 8MP seems due for an upgrade. I do hope that Canon announces the 1DsMkIII (or whatever they call it) for Photokina. The longer that things go without some sort of significant announcement from Canon, the less confidence Canon shooters will have that they backed the right horse. We all have substantial investments in our Canon gear, and it can be disconcerting to watch other companies catch up to (or surpass) the current offerings from Canon, although there is the silver lining of strong competition leading to better pricing. And engineering/development is the sort of thing that goes in fits and starts, so it may well be that Canon is poised to hit the market in the spring with several new, substantial upgrades. It's just that the uncertainty coupled with the current lineup makes it difficult for some of us to plan purchases intelligently. I know that the next body I get will have to last me at least a couple of years, so...



Aug 29, 2006 at 08:18 AM
Hrow
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.51 #11 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Jwill is pretty much point on IMHO but I would like to add a little something. Canon is in a somewhat unenviable position in that they have several models that are cannibalizing their own sales. The new Rebel will certainly eat into 30D sales and the 5D has eaten into 1D(x) sales (just check the B&S forum and Ebay and note how many people are saying "Bought a 5D, selling my trusty 1D(x)."

In the very short term, they are probably willing to take the hit because the volume v. price ratio reduces the hurt. However, it is not a situation that any manufacturer wants to let linger for too long.

The early annoucement of the Rebel was timed to counteract Sony and Nikon offerings but Photokina is too big a show to blow your load this early for. The Rebel will be old news at the show and Canon would like / needs something to act as the show stopper for the event itself. Photokina generates huge worldwide press and those are free advertising dollars that Canon can ill afford to just throw away by not annoucing something of significance.



Aug 29, 2006 at 08:26 AM
Yakim Peled
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.51 #12 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


>> It's just that the uncertainty coupled with the current lineup makes it difficult for some of us to plan purchases intelligently.

Only if you always want/need to have the best. My purchasing strategy is different. I always buy used and I buy the old model after the new one is well established in the market. This way, I never have the top but I have a very decent picture taking machine at a VERY decent prices. Yes, you guessed it. I am poor... :-(



Aug 29, 2006 at 08:31 AM
Yakim Peled
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.51 #13 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


>> Just too many models that really basically do the same thing.

Like taking pictures?

Sorry, couldn't help it :-)



Aug 29, 2006 at 08:54 AM
wjmeyer
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.51 #14 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


I just realized something, Canon has got to be eating this all up, the camera manufacturer's must be elated at what digital has done for their sales...

How many remember back into the film days, how long ago did the EOS 3 come out, and then the EOS 1v, these film bodies are still at the top of their game and we were content to own them for sometimes five years or more, but with digital, after one year we begin to get antsy, and after two years we're crying for an upgrade... and what about price, I think the 1v HS sold for about $1600 when new, but the 1D series sold for $4500 and $8000 depending on sensor size... How many of us cringed at spending close to $2000 for a 35mm film body, but don't seem to mind paying more than twice as much for a digital body... my friends, they have us in their hands



Aug 29, 2006 at 09:31 AM
Koivulehto
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.51 #15 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


wjmeyer wrote:
If Digic III is for real, I wonder what real improvements we'll see

Faster AF performance?

Higher ISO capability?

New and improved flash performance?

Faster write speeds to CF cards?

I don't know, just guessing here, anyone have any better insight?


The basic semiconductor development of smaller on-chip line widths "only" improves processor speed, power consumption and production costs. If the complexity of the processor circuitry simultaneously increases, power consumption and production cost benefits might be lost, but overall performance might grow a lot.

If Digic III only improves speed (and buffer size), it enables higher image data throughput ( = MP x fps), which also means faster write speeds to CF cards.

If Digic III also contains more complex processor circuitry AND if it brings along major software (algorithm) improvements, then it could improve AF speed and/or reduce noise without sacrificing detail resolution, but I assume the higher ISO capability mainly depends on making improvements in the actual CMOS sensor.

An improved processor might help in running more complex algorithms to improve camera's ability to guess which kind of flash exposures the user targets, but I don't immediately find other ways how Digic III could improve flash performance.



Aug 29, 2006 at 09:33 AM
Nori
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.51 #16 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Guy Mancuso wrote:
... consumers are not stupid and will look elsewhere when they see camera's coming out with obvious upgrades that really do nothing except try to earn money for Canon. Let' s face it the 1dMKII to the 1dMKIIn what was the selling point a larger LCD and the upgrades could have easily been in a firmware upgrade . i may be missing something but my point is more money for not a heck of a lot gain. ...



I completely agree with you Guy, I hate to see products coming out every 12 or 18 months with incremental upgrades. Rather I would prefer some substantial upgrade coming out every 24/36 months. Canon offered 30D and are still continuing the 20D lineup. I have been watching their marketing for the past 5 years and it sucks IMO. But in the end they do end up making people buy their 5D as they have not offered anything else nicer after the release of 20D in 2004.



Aug 29, 2006 at 09:39 AM
jwil
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.51 #17 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Canon isn't continuing the 20D lineup. There is a huge difference between continuing to promote and sell something because you have inventory in the channel and continuing to produce a two year old product after the replacement is announced.

Quite simply, the only reason the 20D is still on the site is because of old inventory. The interesting thing here is that excess inventory in this segment is often a sign of two things: poor product transition planning or a significant change in consumer buying patterns. In Canon's case, probably a bit of both.

I think what a lot of people miss is that the 30D was very likely just a stop-gap, a band-aid, a temporary patch in the product line. As I've said before the 30D was probably supposed to be a much more significant upgrade, but technical problems prevented that from happening, so Canon did what any smart company would do and released a minor update with what features were ready to go out the door so they could feed consumer need.

Perhaps it wasn't the CMOS that was the problem, but perhaps they wanted to put Digic III in the 30D as well and it wasn't ready, maybe it was a power consumption issue and new batteries weren't ready. Whatever the case, I'm guessing it's about ready now and Canon is intentionally retarding production (or maybe they've stopped production of the 30D entirely) with a replacement just on the horizon.

If this is the case Canon's marketing isn't horrible, it's absolutely brilliant! Rather than opt for a two plus year hole in their releases - in a very consumer oriented and spec sensitive segment - they sent the 30D out the door to appear as though they were releasing new products on time and to remain in the headlines knowing that new Nikon products were imminent.

If Canon does announce a new 30D replacement product they can sit back and say "We've released 3 new bodies in two years in that segment...Nikon has done what?" and all the Canon fanboys will rejoice, and agree they are brilliant.

Go back to my 5 prediction and I'm not only expecting a 30D replacement but the 30D and 20D to drop from the product line, resulting in a line that looks like this: XTi - 40D(?) - 5D - 1DmkIIn - 1Ds, with a price drop on the 5D.

The XTi will more than compete against anything in the <$800 market and can hold it's own in some comparisons with $1k cameras like the D80. The 40D(?) would be able to trounce the Alpha and D80 spec for spec and could hold it's own against a much more expensive D200. The gap from 40D(?) to 5D wouldn't be as wide as it currently is, and there isn't a burning need to update the Marks until Canon has a spectacular update for them ready. Not to mention the only competition for the Marks are the Nikon D2Hs and D2Xs, and the Canon's can more than hold thier own with those.

That would reset the product line as a very competetive set of cameras.

One more thought, the largest limiting factors for Canon to make any of these moves is flexibility and focus. Canon has all of their eggs in their own basket, they make almost every component of their cameras, certainly the major components, so they can't just go work with another supplier if vendor A can't get Digic chips run on time. They also carry all of the R&D burden, not just on glass and bodies, but down to the component level with building their own chip fab machines. That imposes a VERY heavy burden on development.

And focus is a problem. They, like many Japanese companies, are trying to be all things to all people. Nikon has dropped most of their film line, yet Canon still has a full film line. Canon is also in printing, office products, scientific electronics, etc. A widely diverse field of markets that can cause problems. If HP turns up the heat in the printer market and they start losing profit there, then that in turn applies pressure to Canon to maximize profits in other markets (crank out more profit producing products that aren't revolutionary....) so they lack the focus that Nikon exhibits lately.

I could go on , but I think I've typed enough to get my point accross. I'm just going to sit back and enjoy the show now.

Final comment, when trying to guess what a company is going to release in the future, you have have a account for multiple dimensions of influence on thier product planning and management. Product lifecycle, technical capabilities, supply chain, market conditions, competetive SWOT, new/emerging markets, profitability, etc etc etc. It's a fun little game to play though, and I love that part of my job. ;-)



Aug 29, 2006 at 10:16 AM
Nori
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.51 #18 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


jwil wrote:
Canon isn't continuing the 20D lineup. ...... It's a fun little game to play though, and I love that part of my job. ;-)


On the lighter side of things, you sound like either "You Own Canon" or "Work For Canon" or "Have a Lot of Canon Stock" . I did read your entire post, it is just a matter of different perspective of what Canon is doing and how we are looking at it.



Aug 29, 2006 at 10:28 AM
Richie S
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.51 #19 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


I still have a nagging suspicion that a super xxD series is on it's way to sit above the 30D - but below the 5D - the best 1.6 bod canon could produce. I seem to be on my own in this line of thinking though


Aug 29, 2006 at 10:34 AM
Tom_W
Online
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.51 #20 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


jwil wrote:
Canon isn't continuing the 20D lineup. There is a huge difference between continuing to promote and sell something because you have inventory in the channel and continuing to produce a two year old product after the replacement is announced.

Quite simply, the only reason the 20D is still on the site is because of old inventory. The interesting thing here is that excess inventory in this segment is often a sign of two things: poor product transition planning or a significant change in consumer buying patterns. In Canon's case, probably a bit of both.

I think what a lot of people miss
...Show more

I agree - the next generation wasn't quite ready.

Perhaps it wasn't the CMOS that was the problem, but perhaps they wanted to put Digic III in the 30D as well and it wasn't ready, maybe it was a power consumption issue and new batteries weren't ready. Whatever the case, I'm guessing it's about ready now and Canon is intentionally retarding production (or maybe they've stopped production of the 30D entirely) with a replacement just on the horizon.

I think that it was both a new sensor and new processing. A whole new package, presumably being a major leap above the present.

If this is the case Canon's marketing isn't horrible, it's absolutely brilliant! Rather than opt for a two plus year hole in their releases - in a very consumer oriented and spec sensitive segment - they sent the 30D out the door to appear as though they were releasing new products on time and to remain in the headlines knowing that new Nikon products were imminent.

If Canon does announce a new 30D replacement product they can sit back and say "We've released 3 new bodies in two years in that segment...Nikon has done what?" and all the Canon fanboys will rejoice,
...Show more

Got to admit though, the D200 was a brilliant move by Nikon. I suspect that it's a low-margin camera, but it struck at a point in Canon's lineup that was vacant.

Still, Canon's response (assuming they have one) is likely to be strong.

Go back to my 5 prediction and I'm not only expecting a 30D replacement but the 30D and 20D to drop from the product line, resulting in a line that looks like this: XTi - 40D(?) - 5D - 1DmkIIn - 1Ds, with a price drop on the 5D.

Given full-frame sensor costs, I'm not sure how much lower the 5D can go (though to me, it's worth its price). Otherwise, I like your product lineup, and I think it looks pretty legit. The XTi is going to be a big winner, providing it works well.

The XTi will more than compete against anything in the <$800 market and can hold it's own in some comparisons with $1k cameras like the D80. The 40D(?) would be able to trounce the Alpha and D80 spec for spec and could hold it's own against a much more expensive D200. The gap from 40D(?) to 5D wouldn't be as wide as it currently is, and there isn't a burning need to update the Marks until Canon has a spectacular update for them ready. Not to mention the only competition for the Marks are the Nikon D2Hs and D2Xs, and the...Show more

It is enjoyable, otherwise, these speculative threads would not be so popular. Your comments make a great deal of sense to me.



Aug 29, 2006 at 10:40 AM
1       2       3              50              52              104       105       end




FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3              50              52              104       105       end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account