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Archive 2006 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

  
 
DaveEP
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p.47 #1 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Flappie wrote:
I have the impression a lot of people forgot what happened two year sago, just before Photokina.
Canon announced the 20D in August, and the 1DsmkII (first digic II) only end of september, just before Photokina .
That leak of digic III is a very very huge leak
Flappie


The 1Ds2 was not the first Digic II Camera.......



Aug 26, 2006 at 05:37 AM
JohnRobb
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p.47 #2 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Smugly content with my post on Aug 14th got a few things right



Aug 26, 2006 at 07:36 AM
Sneakyracer
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p.47 #3 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Flappie wrote:
I have the impression a lot of people forgot what happened two year sago, just before Photokina.
Canon announced the 20D in August, and the 1DsmkII (first digic II) only end of september, just before Photokina .

That leak of digic III is a very very huge leak

Flappie


Yep, thats correct

Guys, Relax, Canon will inroduce a NEW 1Ds (20+mp) this september, so relax and enjoy this next few weeks. As always it will blow away all of the currently available DSLRs and a few medium format backs. Expend your efforts trying to get the $8K rounded up to make the purchase



Aug 26, 2006 at 09:14 AM
justinjones
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p.47 #4 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Sneakyracer wrote:
Yep, thats correct

Guys, Relax, Canon will inroduce a NEW 1Ds (20+mp) this september, so relax and enjoy this next few weeks. As always it will blow away all of the currently available DSLRs and a few medium format backs. Expend your efforts trying to get the $8K rounded up to make the purchase


Does anyone know if the sensor is supposed to be Foveon-like or not?



Aug 26, 2006 at 11:14 AM
The Image
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p.47 #5 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


intersting line about , about possibly no new 1ds3 this year but a new 1dmkIII ff 16.7 mp 8fps http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/Canon_1DS_MkIII.html


Aug 26, 2006 at 11:19 AM
EOS20
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p.47 #6 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Guy Mancuso wrote:
Hey you guys come anywhere near the amount of posts on the DMR , i am going to cut you off at the knees.

Leica
Fuji keep a eye on this

No Pro canon.

Bye



According to the stats (At time of this post) The DMR thread is #2 in the top 10 threads (Per post) at 9566 posts, With 598165 views! This thread is all the way down at #9 with 926 posts and 167132 views!

So its safe to say, its going to be a long time before this thread takes over the DMR thread so your still safe Guy.





Aug 26, 2006 at 11:26 AM
EOS20
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p.47 #7 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


I agree, I think Canon needs to start working on some good fast wide angle lenses! I really want to see a 17mm f/1.4. They offer fast primes from 24mm with the 24 f/1.4, the 35 f/1.4, 50 f/1.2, 85 f/1.2, 135 f/2, 200 f/2.8 etc but nothing before the 24mm focal length (which means no decent wide angle prime for APS-C shoters). I want the new prime to be a "L" not another EF-S lens, becuse I want to be able to use all my lenses on all of my cameras not just a few models in the lineup!

I would also like to see a 17mm (Or Wider) TS-E lens.

I also think its about time Canon updates all there old non USM primes,Or at least offer a USM version of each of them. Mayby not the 50 f/1.8 II due to the price point, and adding USM would make it not such a great option if your looking for a bargin prime, and If you do want USM you have the 50 f/1.4 option.
The 50mm macro would really benifit from a update, Its a great lens but the buzzy AF motor and 1:2x life size could really do with a update, Make it like the 60mm EF-S version and I would be more then happy to buy it!!

Just my 2 cents.



Aug 26, 2006 at 11:59 AM
tgrey
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p.47 #8 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Paul Pope chimes in.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=19753418



Aug 26, 2006 at 12:02 PM
lexvo
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p.47 #9 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Well, a new 50D in feb 2006 seems very possible to me.


Aug 26, 2006 at 12:16 PM
JRMDC
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p.47 #10 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Guy Mancuso wrote:
Market wise Canon needs to stop the small upgrades , it does bring in money no question but it also strenghtens other OEM, really in the long run they are weakening there market share like this, folks don't see any real changes they just move on. Lke me for one. i just did not seee them introducing products that i needed for a long time. But that is me but they still have to watch there backs. I smell something bigger than them as far as product coming out. it really is time Canon gets trumped and it will
...Show more

I don't understand this "small upgrades" and "trumped" complaint. The 400D is a strong upgrade that brings it back to strong leadership in its market segment, the low end. The alternative of staying with the 350d would mean they would be behind the market. Then their market share would truly weaken.

I haven't read everything you or everyone has posted here, but seriously, how can you say there are no real changes here? 10mp and dust control means Canon leapfrogs Nikon and matches Sony. Who will do the trumping, and with what? Certainly no one this holiday gift season.

Please explain, and please explain the argument that upgrading one's product leads to strengthening competitors and weakening market share.

An example, a year and a half ago, should they NOT have come out with the 350d, instead continuing to sell the 300d until the 400d was ready to go? That appears to be what you are arguing. It makes no sense.



Aug 26, 2006 at 12:38 PM
DaveMart
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p.47 #11 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


lexvo wrote:
Well, a new 50D in feb 2006 seems very possible to me.

That was my bit!
I was just having fun, guessing what might be in the pipeline, and according to Paul at least got at least some bits right - I suspect that I was too optimistic about high ISO noise, and that that was the error on the 50D.
Anyway, here are my guesses:
'Just for fun, I wondered what everyone's guesses were about what Canon will bring out over the next couple of years?
Here's my go, to set the ball rolling:

The assumptions that I've made are that Canon will look to increasing the rate of model change at the bottom end of the DSLR market to similar rates to that in the compact market, with small frequent upgrades to maintain interest - prices are going down and numbers of DSLR's sold are going up, so it would be worth their while.

The second assumption is that as Canon have said that they will eventually have FF at everywhere except the entry level, they will not be too bothered about retaining EF-S compatibility for too long.

Just the same, after the recent Canon white paper about FF, it is obvious that it will be challenging to go straight to FF, as the sensor costs 10-20 times that of an APS-C according to Canon.
The APS-H however, it is clear only costs perhaps 3 times a APS-C chip.

Since they are not bothered about EF-S compatibility, it seems to me that they will go to a 1.3 on the way to FF - but only when it is going to maximise profits for them to do so.
The third asumptipn is that Canonwere serious and honest in this interview:
http://www.dslrphoto.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/Future_DSLRs.pdf

They are then going to introduce more DR (other Canon interviews, I believe - never been able to track the source down) and higher ISO shortly, and a camera with EVF at some time.
So based on that, here are my guesses for models:

Sept 06 - 1DsIII, Digic III, 22MP,8fps 16bit-only actully uses 14bit- used to make tonal transitions better, rather than any increase in DR.$8k
IDII continues for the time being.
Feb 07- 50D (not 40D)1.6, 10MP, extended DR, ISO 6400

5000D - EVF which displays 300,000 pixels at 24fps, ISO 1600 -Program modes only

Aug 07- 500D - EVF, 500,000 pixels at 30fps, extended DR., ISO 6400, Creative modes
Sept 07-6D -FF Extended DR, ISO6400 12MP, 3fps
2DRS- 1.3, Extended DR, ISO 6400, 12MP at 8fps
Feb 08- 6000D - EVF displays 300k pixels 24 fps, Program
modes only, ISO3200, Semi-Extended DR
Aug 08- 60D - 1.3, 12MP, Ext DR, ISO 6400
600D - Adds in-body IS
Sept08- 1Dx - FF, 22MP, Ext DR, ISO6400'
No one could be more astonished than I if much of this pans out!

Regards,
DaveMart



Aug 26, 2006 at 01:21 PM
Tom_W
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p.47 #12 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


JRMDC wrote:
I don't understand this "small upgrades" and "trumped" complaint. The 400D is a strong upgrade that brings it back to strong leadership in its market segment, the low end. The alternative of staying with the 350d would mean they would be behind the market. Then their market share would truly weaken.
I haven't read everything you or everyone has posted here, but seriously, how can you say there are no real changes here? 10mp and dust control means Canon leapfrogs Nikon and matches Sony. Who will do the trumping, and with what? Certainly no one this holiday gift season.


Actually, I agree WRT the 400D - it is a significant upgrade. And competitive forces probably helped bring this about. Putting the 20D/30D AF system and a sensor cleaning system in the body are very positive moves. If they can keep the noise below the competition, then the 10.1 mpx is significant as well (at least in this market segment where megapixels are king).

Please explain, and please explain the argument that upgrading one's product leads to strengthening competitors and weakening market share.

An example, a year and a half ago, should they NOT have come out with the 350d, instead continuing to sell the 300d until the 400d was ready to go? That appears to be what you are arguing. It makes no sense.


I think that what Guy is referring to in terms of small, incremental improvements are what we got with the 30D and 1D IIN - neither of which was significant, but was essentially a modest improvement to the original, good camera. There are some rumblings, particularly among those looking at the 30D price range, that Canon is falling behind in that area. I was surprised at the modest upgrade of the 30D myself, though I was already a happy 5D shooter at the time.

My personal belief is that Canon brought out the 30D and 1D2N as short-term "place-holders" to buy time so that they can develop the next generation of processor & sensor. I can't base this on anything other than strong rumors from 3 or 4 sources that I've found to have good information in the past.

Canon is aware of the D200 and other manufacturer's developments and knows what needs to be done. I just don't think that the next product was ready at the time, hence the minor upgrades in the mid section of the lineup.



Aug 26, 2006 at 01:35 PM
Tom_W
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p.47 #13 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


EOS20 wrote:
According to the stats (At time of this post) The DMR thread is #2 in the top 10 threads (Per post) at 9566 posts, With 598165 views! This thread is all the way down at #9 with 926 posts and 167132 views!

So its safe to say, its going to be a long time before this thread takes over the DMR thread so your still safe Guy.



Hey, we're already #9, working on #8!

Just warn me when we get close to #2 - my knees, as old as they are, are still useful!



Aug 26, 2006 at 01:40 PM
L. H. Smith
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p.47 #14 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Guy Mancuso wrote:
Sorry won't read what he says


I'm guessing your face looked better WITH the nose. :-)



Aug 26, 2006 at 01:47 PM
JRMDC
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p.47 #15 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


OK, Guy, fine, but you made your comments specifically in reference to Canon falling behind the competition. I see no evidence that Canon is falling behind with respect to DR, saturation (can't we increase that in PP?), tonal range, etc. Sure, we all want more DR in our cameras, but Canon is no worse at that than others. And one can argue that Canon continues to lead in high ISO quality. So your argument applies to digital cameras but not Canon apart from others.

With respect to glass, Canon certainly could use some new wide primes, from what I read in various forums, so no argument there. On the low end, I for one really, really want a 35/2 replacement, although I suspect that is not what you have in mind. besides, for me it's a normal focal length.

On the other hand, the Canon 10-22 is excellent for EF-S, leads in its category, I think. I certainly had great results with it during my rental. And I read lots of positive things about the various new zooms, 24-105 (after early problems), 17-55 IS. Canon seems to be responding to their market as far as zooms go. (I use both, I am neither a zoom goon or a prime geek.)

Overall, however, I just don't see the argument that Canon is falling behind its competition in terms of image quality, which seems to be your theme.


Guy Mancuso wrote:
All you are getting is features there is not one single improvement in the way the images are taken with regards to Dynamic range , saturation , tonal range or anything that is different when it comes to sensors or going up to 16 bit. And that is the bottom line , features are luxury items to sell camera's > anyone that knows anything about the bottom line on image can see right past what canon is doing , Really nothing. do you honestly think there sensor cleaner will truly work like advertised. sorry won't happen. Dust is dust
...Show more



Aug 26, 2006 at 01:50 PM
JRMDC
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p.47 #16 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


I don't disagree about those two bodies being incremental, although I don't see the argument that Canon is falling behind wrt to the 30D. I think people got wound up looking for a major upgrade and they didn't get it. Canon is still quite competitive. And I agree with the last sentence quoted below.

10DFT wrote:
I think that what Guy is referring to in terms of small, incremental improvements are what we got with the 30D and 1D IIN - neither of which was significant, but was essentially a modest improvement to the original, good camera. There are some rumblings, particularly among those looking at the 30D price range, that Canon is falling behind in that area. I was surprised at the modest upgrade of the 30D myself, though I was already a happy 5D shooter at the time.

My personal belief is that Canon brought out the 30D and 1D2N as short-term "place-holders" to buy
...Show more



Aug 26, 2006 at 01:53 PM
Tom_W
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p.47 #17 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Guy Mancuso wrote:
All you are getting is features there is not one single improvement in the way the images are taken with regards to Dynamic range , saturation , tonal range or anything that is different when it comes to sensors or going up to 16 bit. And that is the bottom line , features are luxury items to sell camera's > anyone that knows anything about the bottom line on image can see right past what canon is doing , Really nothing. do you honestly think there sensor cleaner will truly work like advertised. sorry won't happen. Dust is dust
...Show more

Well, I believe that the 400D/XTi is exactly the right move at that point in the market. Bells and whistles do sell and that's important at the entry DSLR level. I only hope that DR and noise at least stays the same with the new 10 mpx sensor.

At the midrange level and up, it's a different story and it will take a significant leap in sensor/processing tech to make a step large enough to show market superiority. I can't say that what we've got now is bad - it's very good. But I also am interested in seeing a 14 or 16-bit image and another stop or two of DR.

I think that Canon has made some strong moves in the lens department, but a lot of that movement has been aimed at zooms & such. Yes, I saw a strong need for stuff like the 17-55/2.8 and the 10-22 EF-S lenses. And that's good.

But what I'd like to see is more of what they're doing with the 85 and 50 L's. I don't think they need to mess with the 35, 135, or the long primes, but the 24L, 20 USM, & 14L need help badly.

It seems that Canon is spread over a very wide range of users and is trying to appease all of them.



Aug 26, 2006 at 01:55 PM
DaveMart
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p.47 #18 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Guy Mancuso wrote:
All you are getting is features there is not one single improvement in the way the images are taken with regards to Dynamic range , saturation , tonal range or anything that is different when it comes to sensors or going up to 16 bit. And that is the bottom line , features are luxury items to sell camera's > anyone that knows anything about the bottom line on image can see right past what canon is doing , Really nothing. do you honestly think there sensor cleaner will truly work like advertised. sorry won't happen. Dust is dust
...Show more
You don't get revolution every time.
Canon have already said that next year they hope to improve DR. They should also introduce DIGICIII, which may be a needed step in processning power to improve the IQ.
As regards primes, they seem to be introducing some gradually, but they basically have to follow the market, and if the sales are in zooms they have to concentrate on that.
They have a business to run, and need to make profit to make the improvements you hope for.
Regards,
DaveMart



Aug 26, 2006 at 01:56 PM
tgrey
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p.47 #19 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Guy Mancuso wrote:
I am not buying menu items i am looking for quality of image and one day a lot of hobbyist will wake up and realize it is about the image and not about the AF, sensor cleaning, AA filter stuff.


Hey it depends on what you shoot. I'm one of your hobbyists (bird photography in my case) and I agree that dustbusting is trivia, and IQ is the game. This mostly glass and sensor. I'm plenty happy with the great Canon tele lenses, understanding that those who shoot wide have gripes.

But top AF is not a glitzy menu item for me; it's a big factor. Weight (for mobility) and reach (pixel density) are also big factors. So my kind of shooter wants a camera with 30D weight and pixel density and 1-series AF. High fps comes right behind. Oh and yes we too would like more DR...

I don't think there are enough of us to influence Canon much (though Art Morris may influence them some) and I get the impression we mostly piggyback on the pro sports shooters. But sports PJs seem to like the bricks -- the super build, and the monster NiMH battery for 1000+ shots -- where we care more about mobility.

Point being, what's cake and what's frosting depends on what you shoot.



Aug 26, 2006 at 02:06 PM
Tom_W
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p.47 #20 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Guy Mancuso wrote:
okay have fun and i will go back to my corner of the forum.

I am here for balance.


You're driving the post count up - you want to 'cap somebody. I'll PM you a list.



Aug 26, 2006 at 02:07 PM
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