p.10 #1RF-L or FE-GM (No Trolls, Gatekeepers, or Dismissive Responses)
Imagemaster wrote:
After reading the OP's complaints about almost every brand of gear out there, the biggest question would be why you asked him that question.
I think every brand is so good now, it's probably more efficient to just list the complaints for each.
p.10 #3RF-L or FE-GM (No Trolls, Gatekeepers, or Dismissive Responses)
IlyaSnopchenko wrote:
BTW who tf are the "Gatekeepers" mentioned in the thread title?
I only remember the use of this term in (the original) Ghostbusters movie.
I believe he's referring to people who judge the worthiness of a shooter to own the top line lenses based on their idea of the shooter's needs and talents.
And now, thanks to you, I am going to imagine a very possessed Rick Moranis slapping any high end purchases I'm considering out of my hand and screaming, "You don't deserve this! You're not the keymaster!"
p.10 #4RF-L or FE-GM (No Trolls, Gatekeepers, or Dismissive Responses)
Jack Flesher wrote:
The bigger question is what have you decided to do?
Good question. I plan on renting the Canon RF-L primes and zooms to see how they feel.
My idea of waiting for the R8II to be released just fizzled away after seeing the pictures of it. It's just another Sony clone. I dislike the ergonomics of my A7iv, and the R8II looks identical to my A7iv, so I'm scratching that one off the list.
That narrows my choices to go with either Canon RF-L primes or "trinity" zooms, and maybe add an R5II as a primary using my R6II as a backup for when/if my R5II dies. All will depend on how balanced these outfits are and how much pain I'm willing to tolerate carrying that behemoth outfit around my neck.
Next possible option is to rent a Leica M11 and a 35mm f1.4 to see if it's "love at first site". If it feels incredibly amazing and shoots like I expect, then I'll probably sell off all my Sony gear and short Canon primes (not the long lenses; I want those if I go Leica), and use the money toward my first M11.
Not to completely rule out Sony, before I make any final decision, I'll probably rent a GM prime and a GM zoom to see how they feel on my A7c. If they balance well and blow me away, then I'll consider getting an A7CR with those GM lenses. If I do this, I won't need to sell my Canon gear because I like shooting with two platforms. I will definitely sell my A7iv and SOME of my unused Canon lenses though.
p.10 #5RF-L or FE-GM (No Trolls, Gatekeepers, or Dismissive Responses)
freaklikeme wrote:
I believe he's referring to people who judge the worthiness of a shooter to own the top line lenses based on their idea of the shooter's needs and talents.
And now, thanks to you, I am going to imagine a very possessed Rick Moranis slapping any high end purchases I'm considering out of my hand and screaming, "You don't deserve this! You're not the keymaster!"
p.10 #6RF-L or FE-GM (No Trolls, Gatekeepers, or Dismissive Responses)
snegron7 wrote:
My idea of waiting for the R8II to be released just fizzled away after seeing the pictures of it.
It might be better to wait a few days to see what it really looks like.
That narrows my choices to go with either Canon RF-L primes or "trinity" zooms, and maybe add an R5II as a primary using my R6II as a backup for when/if my R5II dies. All will depend on how balanced these outfits are and how much pain I'm willing to tolerate carrying that behemoth outfit around my neck.
If I were to leave for Japan tomorrow, I’d take my Canon R3, RF 85mm f/1.4 VCM and EF 16–35mm f/4 IS. If I were to buy lenses for this trip, starting with none, on Canon I’d buy the 85 VCM and the RF 14–35, and on Sony the 85mm f/1.4 GM II and the 16–35mm f/2.8 GM II. The Canon 85 is better than the Sony 85, and the Sony ultra-wide zoom faster than the Canon ones.
I used to travel with the EF 70–200mm f/4 IS but my copy has age-related problems, so I bought the 85mm VCM to replace it (and the EF 50mm f/1.2). I do still have the Zeiss 100mm f/2 in EF mount, but it lacks autofocus and weather sealing and of course needs an adapter.
Really the 85mm VCM and my Crumpler bag are the only photographic items I’ve bought mainly for travel. Travel is by far not the only time I take photos, so travel has to mostly repurpose stuff I already have (hence lugging the R3).
Next possible option is to rent a Leica M11 and a 35mm f1.4 to see if it's "love at first site". If it feels incredibly amazing and shoots like I expect, ...
Leica has “experience” shopfronts where you can try the stuff out and (I assume given they qualify you) take a kit away for a 24 hour trial. These are in some major cities; for example, here in Australia there are two in Melbourne and one in Sydney, all in locations with high international and/or domestic tourist traffic. I think there’s one in Miami. But just handling an M for a few minutes might be enough for you to rule it out – it was for me.
Also: M lenses have no contacts and can’t communicate the shooting aperture and distance. The cameras write an estimate of the shooting aperture into EXIF, based on a separate ambient meter. If it doesn’t work reliably this means you’d need to manually correct every image for vignetting, not exactly fun IMO. The lenses probably can’t focus closely anyway (because rangefinder), but if they could this would potentially also be a problem with distortion correction.
I can’t help feeling that, having correctly identified serious flaws in the Sony and Canon systems, you’re idealising Leica.
p.10 #7RF-L or FE-GM (No Trolls, Gatekeepers, or Dismissive Responses)
It feels to me like you are so “all over the map” on your thinking that it is premature to even try to give you specific camera and lens advice. You are apparently considering a set of large zooms… or maybe three primes instead… and an upcoming R8… but maybe not because you don’t like the way that a rumor photo of it looks… so maybe an Sony… but possibly a Leica… but maybe something a lot smaller would work… and Fujifilm seems sort of interesting…
This is a little like a person saying I think I want breakfast, though maybe dinner wold be better, and I’d like, but vegetarianism is sounding kind of interesting, and I don’t like apples, unless they are green, but really I’d like Mexican food, except I don’t like the way it looks, and wouldn’t truffles be nice?
;-)
Even thinking about buying something at this point is premature. A lot premature.
snegron7 wrote:
Good question. I plan on renting the Canon RF-L primes and zooms to see how they feel.
My idea of waiting for the R8II to be released just fizzled away after seeing the pictures of it. It's just another Sony clone. I dislike the ergonomics of my A7iv, and the R8II looks identical to my A7iv, so I'm scratching that one off the list.
That narrows my choices to go with either Canon RF-L primes or "trinity" zooms, and maybe add an R5II as a primary using my R6II as a backup for when/if my R5II dies. All will depend on how balanced these outfits are and how much pain I'm willing to tolerate carrying that behemoth outfit around my neck.
Next possible option is to rent a Leica M11 and a 35mm f1.4 to see if it's "love at first site". If it feels incredibly amazing and shoots like I expect, then I'll probably sell off all my Sony gear and short Canon primes (not the long lenses; I want those if I go Leica), and use the money toward my first M11.
Not to completely rule out Sony, before I make any final decision, I'll probably rent a GM prime and a GM zoom to see how they feel on my A7c. If they balance well and blow me away, then I'll consider getting an A7CR with those GM lenses. If I do this, I won't need to sell my Canon gear because I like shooting with two platforms. I will definitely sell my A7iv and SOME of my unused Canon lenses though. ...Show more →
p.10 #8RF-L or FE-GM (No Trolls, Gatekeepers, or Dismissive Responses)
gdanmitchell wrote:
It feels to me like you are so “all over the map” on your thinking that it is premature to even try to give you specific camera and lens advice. You are apparently considering a set of large zooms… or maybe three primes instead… and an upcoming R8… but maybe not because you don’t like the way that a rumor photo of it looks… so maybe an 4%ii… but possibly a Leica… but maybe something a lot smaller would work…
This is a little like a person saying I think I want breakfast, though maybe dinner wold be better, and I’d like, but vegetarianism is sounding kind of interesting, and I don’t like apples, unless they are green, but really I’d like Mexican food, except I don’t like the way it looks, and wouldn’t truffles be nice?
;-)
Even thinking about buying something at this point is premature. A lot premature.
I think you missed the dimension that seems to be underlying the OP decision process. It seems he cares a lot about the user experience/ergonomics of his camera system and cares a lot more about that than the a bunch of other specs of the cameras. Further he wants to judge that through his actual experience. What he knows is that he prefers his Canon R6 II over his Sony A7 IV on that dimension, but he wants to get experience with the cameras and lenses he intends to use with these in his hands as he decides and his actual experience is going to drive his decision.
To strain your analogy it is a little like saying what I really care about is how the food tastes and I want a tasty meal. It might be breakfast or dinner. It might be Mexican or maybe French. I'm not sure but I will taste several cuisines and decide what I really like and make that my regular meal. I don't think that is an incoherent approach. I think the OP plan is pretty sensible actually.
Melcat, Leica is definitely a different system and approach and it too will have its issues no doubt, but having used an M10 for several years vignetting correction was not one of them. Yes, the camera estimates the lens aperture for EXIF, and it is often not very close to the aperture that is used. I am pretty sure, however, that the camera just reports that estimate in the EXIF and doesn't use the estimate for vignetting correction or anything else. After thousand of Leica M10 images I almost never corrected vignetting manually. Vignetting correction isn't perfect on a Leica M camera but it wasn't an issue for me. I doubt the OP will like a Leica camera, but the proof of the pudding will be in the eating and it can be a very enjoyable system to use--it was for me even though I didn't keep the system--so I see no harm in his trying it. I would just advise that he try it for at least a month as it is a very different system that takes awhile to master and for it to feel comfortable using.
p.10 #9RF-L or FE-GM (No Trolls, Gatekeepers, or Dismissive Responses)
Steve Spencer wrote:
Leica ... I am pretty sure, however, that the camera just reports that estimate in the EXIF and doesn't use the estimate for vignetting correction or anything else.
But surely the raw converter must use it to correct vignetting, if you want it corrected? I know some people like to leave it uncorrected, but I just apply 100% vignetting and distortion correction to everything when I bring images into Capture One. It works perfectly and I wouldn’t want to give that up. Vignetting is one of the things that has always really annoyed me going all the way back to slide film.
I doubt the OP will like a Leica camera, but the proof of the pudding will be in the eating and it can be a very enjoyable system to use--it was for me even though I didn't keep the system--so I see no harm in his trying it. I would just advise that he try it for at least a month as it is a very different system that takes awhile to master and for it to feel comfortable using.
When I posted earlier I hadn’t seen the OP’s earlier threads or their Flickr. I now agree with Dan.
p.10 #10RF-L or FE-GM (No Trolls, Gatekeepers, or Dismissive Responses)
melcat wrote:
But surely the raw converter must use it to correct vignetting, if you want it corrected? I know some people like to leave it uncorrected, but I just apply 100% vignetting and distortion correction to everything when I bring images into Capture One. It works perfectly and I wouldn’t want to give that up. Vignetting is one of the things that has always really annoyed me going all the way back to slide film.
When I posted earlier I hadn’t seen the OP’s earlier threads or their Flickr. I now agree with Dan.
Nope, I am pretty sure that the estimated aperture is just for EXIF and not for vignetting correction and at least Adobe software doesn't use it, which would be smart on Adobe's part as it is not nearly reliable enough to use for vignetting correction. I am pretty sure Adobe doesn't use it because I got the same vignetting correction on multiple shots in the same setting when that estimate varied as much as 3 stops, so I am pretty sure the correction would have been different and noticeable if Adobe was using it. Instead I suspect Adobe, and probably others just uses the different level of illumination in different parts of the frame for vignetting correction. Regardless of how Adobe does it, I had no more problems with vignetting correction on Leica M than on Canon, Sony, Nikon, Fuji, or Olympus. In my experience it just isn't an issue.
p.10 #11RF-L or FE-GM (No Trolls, Gatekeepers, or Dismissive Responses)
snegron7 wrote:
Good question. I plan on renting the Canon RF-L primes and zooms to see how they feel.
My idea of waiting for the R8II to be released just fizzled away after seeing the pictures of it. It's just another Sony clone. I dislike the ergonomics of my A7iv, and the R8II looks identical to my A7iv, so I'm scratching that one off the list.
That narrows my choices to go with either Canon RF-L primes or "trinity" zooms, and maybe add an R5II as a primary using my R6II as a backup for when/if my R5II dies. All will depend on how balanced these outfits are and how much pain I'm willing to tolerate carrying that behemoth outfit around my neck.
Next possible option is to rent a Leica M11 and a 35mm f1.4 to see if it's "love at first site". If it feels incredibly amazing and shoots like I expect, then I'll probably sell off all my Sony gear and short Canon primes (not the long lenses; I want those if I go Leica), and use the money toward my first M11.
Not to completely rule out Sony, before I make any final decision, I'll probably rent a GM prime and a GM zoom to see how they feel on my A7c. If they balance well and blow me away, then I'll consider getting an A7CR with those GM lenses. If I do this, I won't need to sell my Canon gear because I like shooting with two platforms. I will definitely sell my A7iv and SOME of my unused Canon lenses though. ...Show more →
Does this mean you have forgotten that you found the R6II with the 24-105mm too heavy?
p.10 #12RF-L or FE-GM (No Trolls, Gatekeepers, or Dismissive Responses)
snegron7 wrote:
Good question. I plan on renting the Canon RF-L primes and zooms to see how they feel.
My idea of waiting for the R8II to be released just fizzled away after seeing the pictures of it. It's just another Sony clone. I dislike the ergonomics of my A7iv, and the R8II looks identical to my A7iv, so I'm scratching that one off the list.
That narrows my choices to go with either Canon RF-L primes or "trinity" zooms, and maybe add an R5II as a primary using my R6II as a backup for when/if my R5II dies. All will depend on how balanced these outfits are and how much pain I'm willing to tolerate carrying that behemoth outfit around my neck.
Next possible option is to rent a Leica M11 and a 35mm f1.4 to see if it's "love at first site". If it feels incredibly amazing and shoots like I expect, then I'll probably sell off all my Sony gear and short Canon primes (not the long lenses; I want those if I go Leica), and use the money toward my first M11.
Not to completely rule out Sony, before I make any final decision, I'll probably rent a GM prime and a GM zoom to see how they feel on my A7c. If they balance well and blow me away, then I'll consider getting an A7CR with those GM lenses. If I do this, I won't need to sell my Canon gear because I like shooting with two platforms. I will definitely sell my A7iv and SOME of my unused Canon lenses though. ...Show more →
As I mentioned earlier I love using both Canon and Sony systems. I'm surprised that you like the R6MKII but don't like the A7iv---maybe you should handle the A7V in a camera store? For me the ergonomics are similar. Now that I've customized my menus for both cameras the only thing that is different are the lenses that I use for these cameras.
p.10 #13RF-L or FE-GM (No Trolls, Gatekeepers, or Dismissive Responses)
The largest curiosity here I have about this, is the OP appears to be basing his decisions on how certain cameras look as opposed to how they feel. The second is he talks about the R62 with 24-105 being too big and heavy, then in the same breath mentions the holy trinity’s he wants with whichever system; this being at near opposite sides of a lighter weight kit.
The M will not work for him, he should let that go now. This leaves a small Canon or Sony body and some unknown lens/lenses that will suit. I’m thinking he’s best off with a holy Quadra of the smaller, lighter overlapping f2.8 Tamrons; 16-28, 20-40, 35-100, 70-180 where he could grab the 2 most likely.
Finally, he definitely seems locked in on NOT liking Sony ergos, so it appears Canon should be his primary focus.
p.10 #14RF-L or FE-GM (No Trolls, Gatekeepers, or Dismissive Responses)
I don’t think the OP has ever had to deal with the absolute hassle of selling used camera gear. It’s not quick and easy. That’s dozens and dozens of interactions. It’s gonna take a bit…
p.10 #15RF-L or FE-GM (No Trolls, Gatekeepers, or Dismissive Responses)
Surfnsun wrote:
I don’t think the OP has ever had to deal with the absolute hassle of selling used camera gear. It’s not quick and easy. That’s dozens and dozens of interactions. It’s gonna take a bit…
p.10 #16RF-L or FE-GM (No Trolls, Gatekeepers, or Dismissive Responses)
Steve Spencer wrote:
Dan,
I think you missed the dimension that seems to be underlying the OP decision process.
Nope. ;-)
- - -
Jack Flesher wrote:
The largest curiosity here I have about this, is the OP appears to be basing his decisions on how certain cameras look as opposed to how they feel. The second is he talks about the R62 with 24-105 being too big and heavy, then in the same breath mentions the holy trinity’s he wants with whichever system; this being at near opposite sides of a lighter weight kit.
So, for travel (for now) I'll be shooting with my A7iv as primary, A7c as backup, and 4 lenses:
- Tamron 17-28mm f2.8
- Sony 35mm f1.4 GM
- Sony 50mm f1.8
- Sony 85mm f1.8
My reasoning for this choice is that the majority of the images I shoot while traveling are between 16mm and 100mm. Yes, I know, I'm short a few mm's on both the short and long end of what I currently own, but I'll have to learn to live with it. Another reason is that despite the total weight of the 4 lenses plus two bodies is alot, carrying just my A7iv around my neck with just one of those lenses it not as heavy as carrying around my R6II with RF 24-105mm f4.0L around my neck. Granted, that 35mm f1.4 GM is way heavier than I expected, so that might be a bit of a challenge.
So, I'll still be keeping both systems (Canon and Sony) for now, but my Sony's have moved up to being my main travel cameras. I still like the ergonomics of my R6II more than either of my two Sony's though. I'll probably use my R6II for every else except for travel.
p.10 #19RF-L or FE-GM (No Trolls, Gatekeepers, or Dismissive Responses)
snegron7 wrote:
Another reason is that despite the total weight of the 4 lenses plus two bodies is alot, carrying just my A7iv around my neck with just one of those lenses it not as heavy as carrying around my R6II with RF 24-105mm f4.0L around my neck. Granted, that 35mm f1.4 GM is way heavier than I expected, so that might be a bit of a challenge.
If I were as concerned about weight as you seem to be, I wouldn’t be carrying a backup body on sightseeing trips to Japan.
Just once have I had a camera fail on a trip. I was young and careless, and dropped it. The lovely members of the Vienna Camera Club rustled up a used film OM-1 for me on a weekend, and because of that the memory of that episode is actually positive rather than negative. I sold it to a friend when I got back to Australia, and resolved to be more careful next time. Part of that is making drops less likely by not actually carrying more pieces than I need...
I took two film bodies to Antarctica, mainly so I could run two film stocks. That’s not a consideration any more with digital.
I can see the argument for avoiding lens changes and carrying two bodies on a Zodiac (I did, since I had them anyway) or on safari. Even then, my current plan to do that would be to carry a DSLR as the second body, since I only have the one mirrorless. That, of course, is not a backup since if the R3 fails I can’t use my long lens on the DSLR. But then, what if the lens fails? Where do you stop?
p.10 #20RF-L or FE-GM (No Trolls, Gatekeepers, or Dismissive Responses)
melcat wrote:
If I were as concerned about weight as you seem to be, I wouldn’t be carrying a backup body on sightseeing trips to Japan.
Just once have I had a camera fail on a trip. I was young and careless, and dropped it. The lovely members of the Vienna Camera Club rustled up a used film OM-1 for me on a weekend, and because of that the memory of that episode is actually positive rather than negative. I sold it to a friend when I got back to Australia, and resolved to be more careful next time. Part of that is making drops less likely by not actually carrying more pieces than I need...
I took two film bodies to Antarctica, mainly so I could run two film stocks. That’s not a consideration any more with digital.
I can see the argument for avoiding lens changes and carrying two bodies on a Zodiac (I did, since I had them anyway) or on safari. Even then, my current plan to do that would be to carry a DSLR as the second body, since I only have the one mirrorless. That, of course, is not a backup since if the R3 fails I can’t use my long lens on the DSLR. But then, what if the lens fails? Where do you stop?...Show more →
We all have different experiences in life. A couple of years ago while on an overseas trip to Spain, I had two cameras fail on me at the same time! One was my old A7c, the other was a Ricoh GRIII Street Edition. I was in Cordova at the time, abd there were no camera stores nearby. I was alone, so I didn't have any "buddies who could let me borrow their camera". Also, I've had other cameras fail me in the past. That's why I always carry a spare backup camera. As for tge weight, lije I mentioned in my previous response, I carry most of it in a backpack. Around my neck I carry a camera with a lens attached.
