p.6 #1 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
1bwana1 wrote:
Except that APS-C didn't fit in Leica's core lineup of full frame cameras focused on image quality, using the same sensor, but with different form factors, and use cases.
In London in May, I had a specific conversation with Dr Kaufmann and some LSI members who were advocating for a new APS-C camera. He was adamant that they had never made a profit with an APS-C product, that they saw no way to ever do so in the future. It is Leica managements position that APS-C is best relegated to low priced markets. Leica has no interest at all in competing in that market. I think that is the proper approach for them. The reasons that the APS-C line was dropped is entirely different than with the SL product line. There is no equivalence there....Show more →
OK, if APS-C was to cheap for Leica, how about the Leica S system then?
Kaufmann on multiple occasions and even very recently confirmed that a new medium format system was coming and it is also not coming...
My point is that certainly when leadership might be changing, but even without that change, you cannot take anything for granted.
p.6 #2 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
Luca101 wrote:
Will SL Lux 50 Mark 2 render like M Lux 50 asph mark 2?
That's the question I asked by starting this thread. We don't know, we can only speculate. Will it be an M-like rendering? Did they match the SL 50 Lux version 1 rendering in a smaller package? Or did they just do something new? At the rumored price, expectations are high.
p.6 #3 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
highdesertmesa wrote:
Fujifilm making APS-C and medium format while ignoring full frame is one of the few smart moves they've made in photography right alongside taking a retro, film-based approach to their products – and Instax of course.
I fully agree. It is a very smart move of Fuji. Trying to compete against Sony/Canon/Nikon could potentially kill them.
p.6 #4 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
SlowDriver wrote:
OK, if APS-C was to cheap for Leica, how about the Leica S system then?
Kaufmann on multiple occasions and even very recently confirmed that a new medium format system was coming and it is also not coming...
My point is that certainly when leadership might be changing, but even without that change, you cannot take anything for granted.
Again it was a corporate financial decision not to pursue a medium format camera. The program existed, but was officially canceled. Leica has a clear vision of where they can profitably go. Dr Kaufmann and Leica are very clear that they beleive the SL system is their technically best system. None of us has a crystal ball. However, from personal conversation with Leica leadership I expect growth and innovation in the SL line, not cancelation.
p.6 #6 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
1bwana1 wrote:
Again it was a corporate financial decision not to pursue a medium format camera. The program existed, but was officially canceled. Leica has a clear vision of where they can profitably go. Dr Kaufmann and Leica are very clear that they beleive the SL system is their technically best system. None of us has a crystal ball. However, from personal conversation with Leica leadership I expect growth and innovation in the SL line, not cancelation.
Seeing the X2D II priced at $7.4K USD while knowing Hasselblad had already won over the Leica market for medium format probably had something to do with it. Best they could hope for would be to partner with Hasselblad like they did with Panasonic.
p.6 #7 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
SlowDriver wrote:
My point is that certainly when leadership might be changing, but even without that change, you cannot take anything for granted.
My understanding is that leadership is not changing. Minority owners are changing. The Kaufmann family is planning on running Leeia for future generations. Of course where big money is involved things can easily change from current intention.
I do expect we will get an announcement in this regard very shortly.
p.6 #8 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
RustyBug wrote:
THAT was the Achilles heel to the CL. I really liked the CL, and the prospect of a FF size CL, that would include the option for AF / MF in the rangefinder location (i.e. TLC corner) is attractive in spirit, but the battery life of the CL was sweet when mounting my M lenses, and abysmal when shooting with AF glass.
Did you use Leica APS-C glass? Asking because Sigma APS-C lenses draining the battery fast was a known problem. Unfortunately Leica/Sigma never stabilized the APS-C L-mount.
p.6 #9 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
SlowDriver wrote:
Did you use Leica APS-C glass? Asking because Sigma APS-C lenses draining the battery fast was a known problem. Unfortunately Leica/Sigma never stabilized the APS-C L-mount.
p.6 #11 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
What’s it called when Leica joins forces with Hasselblad? I don’t know, but I’ll put my name down for a Leicablad body with a Hasselux lens.
highdesertmesa wrote:
Seeing the X2D II priced at $7.4K USD while knowing Hasselblad had already won over the Leica market for medium format probably had something to do with it. Best they could hope for would be to partner with Hasselblad like they did with Panasonic.
p.6 #12 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
SlowDriver wrote:
I actually have this lens and I took it on a recent road trip. I took about 50 pictures of a bison hurd and it drained 3 batteries...
p.6 #13 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
SrMi wrote:
I was referring to your claim that "... Leica/Sigma never stabilized the APS-C L-mount".
The Leica SL received a lot of firmware updates to make the L-mount more stable. Those stability fixes were never applied to the Leica CL.
The OIS definitely works on the Leica CL but at the same time the OIS seem to drain the battery even more than non-OIS Sigma APS-C lenses, at least that is my impression.
p.6 #14 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
Surfnsun wrote:
What’s it called when Leica joins forces with Hasselblad? I don’t know, but I’ll put my name down for a Leicablad body with a Hasselux lens.
Problem is there’s nothing meaningful for Leica to contribute to such a partnership. Leica has been matched or outclassed by the industrial design, craftsmanship, and user interface of the Hasselblad.
p.6 #15 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
Surfnsun wrote:
What’s it called when Leica joins forces with Hasselblad? I don’t know, but I’ll put my name down for a Leicablad body with a Hasselux lens.
I think it is more likely that the new Leica ownership might consider a merger with Zeiss than with Hasselblad. It would be a revamping since those talks with Zeiss happened and in the past and weren't successful, but times have changed and new ownership might have a closer look again at the current market and capabilities which both Leica and Zeiss have/had in lens manufacturing. I don't see any overlap for Leica Camera with Hasselblad - two very different areas in the photo market. And it is highly unlikely Leica wants to stretch out again into medium-format after just shutting down the S-line.
p.6 #16 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
1bwana1 wrote:
Again it was a corporate financial decision not to pursue a medium format camera. The program existed, but was officially canceled. Leica has a clear vision of where they can profitably go. Dr Kaufmann and Leica are very clear that they beleive the SL system is their technically best system. None of us has a crystal ball. However, from personal conversation with Leica leadership I expect growth and innovation in the SL line, not cancelation.
I've long advocated that the SL line is Leica's Medium Format level lens quality levels (S Series) for a FF (L Mount) body.
Given the fact that the SL APO glass is already large for the purpose of achieving such high quality / levels fo corection, rates, of falloff, etc. ... I really think the margin of gain for Leica to revive their S series (i.e. Medium Format) is of low ROI. I mean, the SL APO's can already hang with Hassy / Fuji's MF systems in certain regard (at least proximally so) for most folks needs. Unless their target is Phase level MF ... and seriously, how much market is there at THAT level, yeah ... Leica is wise to PASS on MF territory, imo.
Mini-MF they're already in that league with SL APO. Phase level MF ... minuscule market potential (imo).
For that reason, I think the new SL (non-APO) 50/1.4 represents what I'd consider FF level optics in the SL mount, vs. MF level optics in the FF mount ... that place between M lenses and SL APO lenses. The question at hand (imo) is whether that middle space is the functionality of AF + M level optics or AF + optics between M and SL APO optics.
My guess is that it'll sit between the two, given the mounting throat difference between the M mount and the L mount, affording different optical design approaches that the M mount won't allow for.
SL cancellation is a non-starter conversation, imo. SL is here for the long haul (particularly in light of no new MF program). It gives the user the platform of versatility for M > new development glass > SL APO (MF IQ levels) ... according to their budget size and physical size desires. Yeah, SL is here for the long haul, imo.
p.6 #17 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
retrofocus wrote:
+1. I admit that I likely would have never gone with Leica if Fuji made at least one FF-based MLC with manual camera options. It remains still a mystery to me why Fuji let this market niche with full-frame go untapped to date. If Fuji made such FF based MLC with exchangeable lens mount plus offering some high quality smaller lenses, I am convinced many more would stick with Fuji instead of Leica.
The FF market is saturated. The APS-C market is practically ignored by Canikony, more or less. Also consider that only with the most recent models does Fuji have cameras that can compete on a fairly even basis against the mainstream FF options with respect to AF performance. Had they started with a FF mirrorless line back when Sony did, but without the benefit Sony had of making their own sensors, Fuji would have basically been like Panasonic was with CDAF competing against more competent DSLR AF systems and the early half-decent PDAF based mirrorless bodies, of which the first good one (for action related AF performance) was the a9 in 2017.
With APS-C Fuji has a niche practically to themselves for those who want and can benefit from a more compact system and could accept some of the AF performance tradeoffs that were necessary until recently.
But if you don't need that level of AF performance, then sure, a Fuji FF body would have been interesting and certainly usable. I just think Fuji wouldn't have been evaluated as kindly by the general market and would have suffered because of it.
p.6 #18 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
rscheffler wrote:
The FF market is saturated. The APS-C market is practically ignored by Canikony, more or less. Also consider that only with the most recent models does Fuji have cameras that can compete on a fairly even basis against the mainstream FF options with respect to AF performance. Had they started with a FF mirrorless line back when Sony did, but without the benefit Sony had of making their own sensors, Fuji would have basically been like Panasonic was with CDAF competing against more competent DSLR AF systems and the early half-decent PDAF based mirrorless bodies, of which the first good one (for action related AF performance) was the a9 in 2017.
With APS-C Fuji has a niche practically to themselves for those who want and can benefit from a more compact system and could accept some of the AF performance tradeoffs that were necessary until recently.
But if you don't need that level of AF performance, then sure, a Fuji FF body would have been interesting and certainly usable. I just think Fuji wouldn't have been evaluated as kindly by the general market and would have suffered because of it. ...Show more →
Actually Leica's M9 released in 2009 could be considered the first full frame mirrorless digital camera. Sony didn't release the A7 until 2013. Leica didn't use Sony sensors untill the current generation.
p.6 #19 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
1bwana1 wrote:
Actually Leica's M9 released in 2009 could be considered the first full frame mirrorless digital camera. Sony didn't release the A7 until 2013. Leica didn't use Sony sensors untill the current generation.
Only Andreas Kaufmann would say that... Mirrorless and EVF go kind of hand in hand, at least for me...
p.6 #20 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
SlowDriver wrote:
Only Andreas Kaufmann would say that... Mirrorless and EVF go kind of hand in hand, at least for me...
Well it is digital, it is full frame, and it is mirroless. It is can be used both through the range finder ot TTL with the rear screen. Having an EVF is not integral to the mirrorless definition. But also remember that the Visoflex EVF works on the M9 completing your requirements list.
They have to fight in their own weight class.
new development glass > SL APO (MF IQ levels) ... according to their budget size and physical size desires. Yeah, SL is here for the long haul, imo.
Mirrorless and EVF go kind of hand in hand, at least for me...