p.5 #1 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
highdesertmesa wrote:
The A7R VI sensor gives up only the smallest bit of DR with the electronic shutter, probably not enough to notice without extreme underexposure recovery. The M12 will likely use this sensor, drop the mechanical shutter, add IBIS, and consolidate batteries with the SL series.
The sensor in the a7rVI is too slow (1/50 sec, 5 times slower than the A1) to be offered without a mechanical shutter. The M12 will most likely use the new Leica proprietary sensor developed in partnership with Gpixel. I guess SL4 will also use that new sensor source as well.
p.5 #2 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
RustyBug wrote:
E-Shutter only ... no thanks. I've been through that scenario TWICE with adapting my M lenses onto my Hassy X1D II and X2D.
Granted, you can build it with "faster" e-shutters than the Hassy ... but, the thing is that part of the processing quality is inherent to the readout speed, lines read, etc. So, if you're still wanting they top tier quality of processing from the M ... an e-shutter only puts you into either a rolling shutter scenario or a reduced file IQ potential.
Sure, it's fine for lots of folks, but for those expecting the top of the mark file IQ from the top of the mark M ... yeah, e-shutter only doesn't get it for me ... those oval handballs just don't look right. ...Show more →
There are always tradeoffs but I'd argue the M system is not Leica's 'studio' camera. For me it has always been a camera for spontaneity and somewhat uncontrolled situations where technical perfection is already a challenge. Granted this is just me, but I would gladly take the tradeoff of slight (half stop?) noise penalty for a fast enough for 99% of anything ~1/200 e-shutter. IBIS would be icing on the cake for expanding the M system handholdability into significantly marginal shutter speed ranges that currently are (for me) difficult to achieve. It's one reason I'm really enjoying my stacked sensor, IBIS equipped mirrorless system, regretfully at the expense of my M system.
As for this new 50 Lux ASPH II SL lens... I'm not optimistic that it will be a 'reference' type of halo lens. Rather I think it might be an SL version of the recently released 50 Lux non-ASPH M lens that is surprisingly close in performance to the original ASPH version, but with some tradeoffs/imperfections to enhance character. Yet actually isn't that much of a character lens because it's so modern looking. Unless Leica pull a 50 Cron APO ASPH-M and cram technical perfection into the smallest possible package.
p.5 #3 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
highdesertmesa wrote:
The A7R VI sensor gives up only the smallest bit of DR with the electronic shutter, probably not enough to notice without extreme underexposure recovery. The M12 will likely use this sensor, drop the mechanical shutter, add IBIS, and consolidate batteries with the SL series.
It won't happen with the M12. It will be a generation later. It is what is driving the in house sensor and search for a new processor provider.
Everyone is mistakenly focusing on the sensor. But that is only half the problem. Sony will sell advanced sensors (not all), but Sony will not sell it's advanced processor to any othet camera manufacture. This is limiting many brands ability to match the results Sony is getting. The manufacturers have been relying on Fujitsu processors but this is now a limitation. Leica and others have been trying to adapt the Qualcom advanced ARM processor to cameras. It has the needed power. But so far no one has been successful in this. Hopefully they will be soon. Otherwise Sony will continue to run away technology wise from other brands. This is an extesential challenge for some brands. Even more so than for Eica.
p.5 #4 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
SrMi wrote:
The sensor in the a7rVI is too slow (1/50 sec, 5 times slower than the A1) to be offered without a mechanical shutter. The M12 will most likely use the new Leica proprietary sensor developed in partnership with Gpixel. I guess SL4 will also use that new sensor source as well.
It absolutely will not happen for the M12. From what I understand, the M12 is currently late due to processor challenges. It is now scheduled for a February 2027 release. The new sensor is still 3 or more years away.
p.5 #5 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
rscheffler wrote:
I'd argue the M system is not Leica's 'studio' camera.
That's an interesting phrasing ... meaning, it kinda begs the question, well then "what is" ... and, if that answer is the SL (vs. the M), then the point about making the SL into an M-like ... becomes a bit circular, that then leaves them without flagship of sorts for certain things.
I get your point about the essence of a rangefinder camera ... and it's being well heralded for spontaneity. But, I still find the e-shutter not my cup of tea ... at least not for some things (cyclic lighting, panning, long exposures, etc.) I'm sure plenty of folks will get along with it just fine. Are e-shutters "getting there" ... sure, maybe, but I'm not a fan just yet. That said, I can / do / will use them within their wheelhouse, but I still am not comfortable with no mechanical shutter at all. We'll see what they do, but I'd be quite surprised if the M12 was e-shutter only. EVF-M2 ... maybe. M12, not so much.
p.5 #6 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
SrMi wrote:
The sensor in the a7rVI is too slow (1/50 sec, 5 times slower than the A1) to be offered without a mechanical shutter. The M12 will most likely use the new Leica proprietary sensor developed in partnership with Gpixel. I guess SL4 will also use that new sensor source as well.
You’d have to shoot hummingbirds to see rolling shutter at that speed. I don’t think that’s too slow for the M use case, but of course the A1 series sensor would be ideal.
p.5 #7 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
1bwana1 wrote:
It won't happen with the M12. It will be a generation later. It is what is driving the in house sensor and search for a new processor provider.
Everyone is mistakenly focusing on the sensor. But that is only half the problem. Sony will sell advanced sensors (not all), but Sony will not sell it's advanced processor to any othet camera manufacture. This is limiting many brands ability to match the results Sony is getting. The manufacturers have been relying on Fujitsu processors but this is now a limitation. Leica and others have been trying to adapt the Qualcom advanced ARM processor to cameras. It has the needed power. But so far no one has been successful in this. Hopefully they will be soon. Otherwise Sony will continue to run away technology wise from other brands. This is an extesential challenge for some brands. Even more so than for Eica. ...Show more →
Makes sense. I’m assuming they’re wanting both a faster processor and their own sensor because if they could match Sony on the processor, Sony might stop selling them sensors.
p.5 #8 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
RustyBug wrote:
That's an interesting phrasing ... meaning, it kinda begs the question, well then "what is" ... and, if that answer is the SL (vs. the M), then the point about making the SL into an M-like ... becomes a bit circular, that then leaves them without flagship of sorts for certain things.
I get your point about the essence of a rangefinder camera ... and it's being well heralded for spontaneity. But, I still find the e-shutter not my cup of tea ... at least not for some things (cyclic lighting, panning, long exposures, etc.) I'm sure plenty of folks will get along with it just fine. Are e-shutters "getting there" ... sure, maybe, but I'm not a fan just yet....Show more →
I think there will be an SL for a while longer. I'm not as pessimistic about the line as Martin (retro) is. Is SL as profitable as M? Probably not. But it's also somewhat a partnership platform between Leica and Panasonic and Leica and whatever third parties they have designing/making many of the SL lenses. Therefore I think it's less of a resource burden, from a design and manufacturing perspective, than it would be if it was purely an in-house process.
With fast enough e-shutter readout speed, cyclic lighting becomes less problematic, which is also the case for panning. The Nikon Z8/Z9 and Sony a1/II have e-shutter speeds as fast as traditional mechanical shutters, which can also be susceptible to 'rolling shutter' effects if panned fast enough. I don't know about long exposures though. My Canon R5II, at 1/160 e-shutter speed, is fast enough for 99% of what I shoot. It also has a high frequency flicker reduction feature that will fine tune the shutter speed to within thousandths or tens of thousandths of a second to match the high frequency cycling of LED displays, spotlights, etc. I use this quite often for stage/theatre work. For regular lighting operating at 60Hz, the scan speed is fast enough to catch pretty much the full 'on' portion of the on/off cycle and just needs the standard flicker reduction setting found in most modern cameras to time the start of the sensor scan with the on phase of the lighting cycle.
p.5 #9 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
highdesertmesa wrote:
You’d have to shoot hummingbirds to see rolling shutter at that speed. I don’t think that’s too slow for the M use case, but of course the A1 series sensor would be ideal.
Even without the hummingbird or golf swing test, a readout speed that is 5 to 6 times slower than a mechanical shutter will show as a rolling shutter if the movement (camera or subject) is fast (based on my tests with a7rVI, panning the camera, not too fast). For less movement, even the a7rV electronic shutter works.
p.5 #10 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
1bwana1 wrote:
It absolutely will not happen for the M12. From what I understand, the M12 is currently late due to processor challenges. It is now scheduled for a February 2027 release. The new sensor is still 3 or more years away.
I do not know whether it will happen. IIRC, Leica said that they started looking into their proprietary sensor when M11 was launched (2022) and that it takes 5 years for a new sensor to be ready. They never said that it would be part of M12. I feel that Leica wants to avoid using Sony (me too) sensors.
p.5 #11 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
SrMi wrote:
I do not know whether it will happen. IIRC, Leica said that they started looking into their proprietary sensor when M11 was launched (2022) and that it takes 5 years for a new sensor to be ready. They never said that it would be part of M12. I feel that Leica wants to avoid using Sony (me too) sensors.
Leica only hired the in house sensor VP to head the project in January 2026. The M12 release schedule means the camera is already out being tested.
p.5 #12 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
SrMi wrote:
Even without the hummingbird or golf swing test, a readout speed that is 5 to 6 times slower than a mechanical shutter will show as a rolling shutter if the movement (camera or subject) is fast (based on my tests with a7rVI, panning the camera, not too fast). For less movement, even the a7rV electronic shutter works.
I'm going by the initial review videos when the VI was announced. No one could get it to show rolling shutter unless shooting fast sports with things like bat swings, etc. Do M users really pan that fast?
In any case, it would definitely be an upgrade for the M12 if they keep the mechanical shutter.
p.5 #13 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
1bwana1 wrote:
Leica only hired the in house sensor VP to head the project in January 2026. The M12 release schedule means the camera is already out being tested.
Then likely using the new Sony 67mp sensor, no IBIS, and mechanical shutter. Either that or the 44mp sensor they're about to put in the SL3-P.
p.5 #14 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
highdesertmesa wrote:
I'm going by the initial review videos when the VI was announced. No one could get it to show rolling shutter unless shooting fast sports with things like bat swings, etc. Do M users really pan that fast?
In any case, it would definitely be an upgrade for the M12 if they keep the mechanical shutter.
The a7RVI sensor readout speed is about the same as the Canon R5, R6 and R6II, some of which I have used since 2022 for extensive event and sports coverage. 1/60 is generally fast enough, even for many sports, but you start to see rolling shutter distortion when making sudden camera movements, such as to keep up with an erratically moving athlete zigzagging through oncoming opponents, or when panning with action across a field, the background will show signs of distortion (leaning verticals). It will also be problematic with peak action stick and round ball sports, causing stick and ball distortion. For event work, 1/60 is on the edge of fast enough to mitigate more common artificial lighting banding. Faster is better in that it covers a wider range of possible scenarios. For ~10 years I extensively used the M system for event coverage and would have loved a truly silent image capture option that was usable across as wide a range of applications as possible, something for which 1/60 would be usable, but faster would be preferred, and better. With 1/60 e-shutter, it's pretty much guaranteed that the mechanical shutter will be retained to allow faster non-HSS flash sync and for situations where 1/60 rolling shutter will be problematic. Unless you're Sigma with the fp camera that was e-shutter only with a slow sensor readout speed! In any case, if they were to go with the a7RVI sensor (no guarantee) 1/60 would be many times faster than the extremely sluggish readout of the current 60MP sensor.
The big question, IMO is whether Leica will finally implement EFCS in an M camera so that the IMO stupid metering system doesn't have to fully cycle through all those shutter curtain movements just to make an exposure. With EFCS it can simply close and open again rather than close, open, close, open. If the M12 doesn't have EFCS, then usable e-shutter should be mandatory simply to eliminate all that shutter activity when cycling between metering and image capture.
p.5 #15 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
1bwana1 wrote:
There are many things that serve to make Leica special in the photography space. I expect that as technology advances this will remain true.
Leica must take these risks or face a slow but sure death as a company.
Leica M takes a lot of risk. Who else makes a digital B&W rangefinder? Or a digital camera without a bck screen? But Leica until recently stayed true to what they are and what has made M unique successful. No auto focus when everyone else went that way starting in the 80s. How long did it take M to get a meter? And they still make a meter-less film M. They have always resisted following the herd and that has made them survive and even thrive when others have come and gone. If ya want all that stuff on a camera there are a lot of options that already exist and those options do it very well and have been doing it for a long time. Why take something unique and make it like everything else? If I wanted a Fuji I'd buy one for a lot less.
p.5 #17 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
1bwana1 wrote:
If I wanted a Fuji I'd buy one for a lot less.
+1. I admit that I likely would have never gone with Leica if Fuji made at least one FF-based MLC with manual camera options. It remains still a mystery to me why Fuji let this market niche with full-frame go untapped to date. If Fuji made such FF based MLC with exchangeable lens mount plus offering some high quality smaller lenses, I am convinced many more would stick with Fuji instead of Leica.
p.5 #18 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
1bwana1 wrote:
We don't really know the financials, sales numbers, or long term vision Leica has regarding the SL line. But judging from the fact that Leica is launching a new camera body, and two new lenses this month there is significant commitment to the line at this time.
In 2017 Leica released 2 APS-C cameras (CL and TL2) and a new APS-C lens.
It was the last thing Leica ever did in the APS-C world, they released what was in the pipeline, flushed their supply chain over a period of 5 years, and exited the market.
Especially with potentially new ownership coming in, the fact that Leica now releases a new body and 2 lenses really means very little in my opinion.
p.5 #19 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
SlowDriver wrote:
In 2017 Leica released 2 APS-C cameras (CL and TL2) and a new APS-C lens.
It was the last thing Leica ever did in the APS-C world, they released what was in the pipeline, flushed their supply chain over a period of 5 years, and exited the market.
Especially with new ownership coming in, the fact that Leica now releases a new body and 2 lenses really means very little in my opinion.
Except that APS-C didn't fit in Leica's core lineup of full frame cameras focused on image quality, using the same sensor, but with different form factors, and use cases.
In London in May, I had a specific conversation with Dr Kaufmann and some LSI members who were advocating for a new APS-C camera. He was adamant that they had never made a profit with an APS-C product, that they saw no way to ever do so in the future. It is Leica managements position that APS-C is best relegated to low priced markets. Leica has no interest at all in competing in that market. I think that is the proper approach for them. The reasons that the APS-C line was dropped is entirely different than with the SL product line. There is no equivalence there.
p.5 #20 · Could the rumored Leica SL 50 Lux II be M-like in rendering?
retrofocus wrote:
+1. I admit that I likely would have never gone with Leica if Fuji made at least one FF-based MLC with manual camera options. It remains still a mystery to me why Fuji let this market niche with full-frame go untapped to date. If Fuji made such FF based MLC with exchangeable lens mount plus offering some high quality smaller lenses, I am convinced many more would stick with Fuji instead of Leica.
Fujifilm making APS-C and medium format while ignoring full frame is one of the few smart moves they've made in photography right alongside taking a retro, film-based approach to their products – and Instax of course.
