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Small Compact Camera A7C2 vs A7CR vs others

  
 
aCuria
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p.4 #1 · Small Compact Camera A7C2 vs A7CR vs others


ruthenium wrote:
As I suspected, you hadn't expressed your thoughts well. We need to be careful about things we say, because when taken out of the context of your particular usage (always wide open at f/1.4, at high ISO), then what you said is LITERALLY incorrect: ""Larger sensors simply collect more photons, has better SNR... One stop more dynamic range means the light has to be twice as bright before clipping highlights, which can save real-world shots... especially at high ISO where dynamic range collapses."

Note that it is the "light-gathering" ability of an f/1.4 lens that allows the sensor to "collect more
...Show more

ruthenium wrote:
I came to think about cropped-sensor cameras and FF cameras as complimentary, rather than competing systems.


This is true, I too shoot APSC and FF. If someone asks for a camera at the $500, 600, 700 price point I would recommend apsc.

ruthenium wrote:
IBIS of A1 allowed me to use the longest SS at about 1/4s in the wide-to-normal range (20 - 40 mm), whereas the IBIS of the OM-1 II allows shooting hand-held with SS as long as 2s


You like those slow shutter speeds huh. For me, slow shutter usually doesn't work out so well because my subjects move, but here is one that did work. 600mm, 1.6s, SOOC

If the OM2 can do this handheld I would be astounded.

7IV00239 by acurian, on Flickr

For what its worth I can shoot a 2s exposure handheld with IBIS on full frame. On a wide lens though, not 600mm. I fired a 5 frame burst, the first and last shots did not work out but the middle 3 looked ok. Here is a 100% crop.

93_04068 by acurian, on Flickr




Nov 06, 2025 at 09:27 PM
ruthenium
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p.4 #2 · Small Compact Camera A7C2 vs A7CR vs others




aCuria wrote:
This is true, I too shoot APSC and FF. If someone asks for a camera at the $500, 600, 700 price point I would recommend apsc.

You like those slow shutter speeds huh. For me, slow shutter usually doesn't work out so well because my subjects move, but here is one that did work. 600mm, 1.6s, SOOC

If the OM2 can do this handheld I would be astounded.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54907215735_25c0033127_b.jpg7IV00239 by acurian, on Flickr

For what its worth I can shoot a 2s exposure handheld with IBIS on full frame. On a wide lens though, not 600mm. I fired a 5 frame burst, the
...Show more
If the final image is from A9iii, then the IBIS of this camera is rated at 8 vs 5.5 for my A1. The IBIS of OM-1 II is rated at 8.5 that is similar to that of A9iii, if the ratings are taken at the face value.
Long shutter speeds are of little value for bird photography, but they can be very useful, and can be used creatively, for landscapes, architecture, street, etc. With moving subjects, long shutter speeds can create interesting visual effects.



Nov 06, 2025 at 09:41 PM
aCuria
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p.4 #3 · Small Compact Camera A7C2 vs A7CR vs others


ruthenium wrote:
If the final image is from A9iii, then the IBIS of this camera is rated at 8 vs 5.5 for my A1. The IBIS of OM-1 II is rated at 8.5 that is similar to that of A9iii, if the ratings are taken at the face value.
Long shutter speeds are of little value for bird photography, but they can be very useful, and can be used creatively, for landscapes, architecture, street, etc. With moving subjects, long shutter speeds can create interesting visual effects.


Yes the shot is from the A9iii.

Stabilization is a separate and valid consideration.

Is having f/2 on the 50-150GM better, or is having f/2.8 & OSS on the 70-200GMii better? Its not that straight forward.



Nov 07, 2025 at 12:58 AM
aCuria
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p.4 #4 · Small Compact Camera A7C2 vs A7CR vs others


j4nu wrote:
Well, it's not my intent to prove you wrong as there's nothing to prove anymore. Any comparison, including at least one thread in this forum, shows that there's extra detail when using pixelshift (16x, as we're talking about resolution). I just want others not to be mislead into thinking that using higher res sensor with their current (good) lenses will not bring any benefits...
All the other stuff is completely personal, so no point in arguing about shooting landscapes wide open or what "considerably more detail" actually means .
The thing that matters in real life is that you can get
...Show more

Maybe you can show the pixelshift 16x sample against the 4x sample? I'm not sure what thread you are talking about. Personally I don't see much gain between pixelshift x4 and 16.

I agree there is a non-zero amount of extra detail mind you

However I also think the amount of extra detail is not enough to be significant, especially on more average lenses. This is probably where you disagree?

Personally if i can go up one paper size that's significant. 8x12 to 12x18" needs 50% more vertical resolution, and 12x18" to 16x24" requires 33%.

Doubling the sensor area (M43 -> aspc) or (apsc -> FF) will give you this 50% more vertical resolution.

The image resolution can be approximated with the transfer fn: 1/(image_lp/mm)^x = 1/(lens_lp/mm)^x + 1/(sensor_lp/mm)^x

I have used real-world experimental data (testing 24MP against 50) to approximate x as about 3.04

Using the data I got AI to plot the table for me, and it looks like this

Screenshot 2025-11-07 135006 by acurian, on Flickr

I believe we should get better lenses over time, a decade ago we had primes that only produced 20lp/mm at f/1.4. Optical performance has already doubled or tripled in the last 10 years, maybe it would double again in 2035. This is where we will really need the higher res sensors.



Nov 07, 2025 at 01:30 AM
Jonas B
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p.4 #5 · Small Compact Camera A7C2 vs A7CR vs others


aCuria wrote:
Using the data I got AI to plot the table for me, and it looks like this

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54907381849_b156a68060_b.jpgScreenshot 2025-11-07 135006 by acurian, on Flickr

I believe we should get better lenses over time, a decade ago we had primes that only produced 20lp/mm at f/1.4. Optical performance has already doubled or tripled in the last 10 years, maybe it would double again in 2035. This is where we will really need the higher res sensors.


We certainly had some lenses doing better than 20 lp/mm at ƒ1.4 10 years ago. Today it's not higher resolution that's needed but rather all other parameters that need to be looked at.

There are some obvious errors in the table. I had a quick look at it only and obviously the APS-C numbers are not right. The AI missed something there, in several cells.



Nov 07, 2025 at 06:51 AM
j4nu
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p.4 #6 · Small Compact Camera A7C2 vs A7CR vs others


aCuria wrote:
Maybe you can show the pixelshift 16x sample against the 4x sample? I'm not sure what thread you are talking about. Personally I don't see much gain between pixelshift x4 and 16.

I agree there is a non-zero amount of extra detail mind you

However I also think the amount of extra detail is not enough to be significant, especially on more average lenses. This is probably where you disagree?

Personally if i can go up one paper size that's significant. 8x12 to 12x18" needs 50% more vertical resolution, and 12x18" to 16x24" requires 33%.

Doubling the sensor area (M43 -> aspc) or
...Show more

Yes, I didn't measure the improvement in going from 50mpx to pixelshift 200mpx, but it is there.
That was my whole point .



Nov 07, 2025 at 06:51 AM
Jonas B
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p.4 #7 · Small Compact Camera A7C2 vs A7CR vs others


aCuria wrote:
[...]
However I also think the amount of extra detail is not enough to be significant, especially on more average lenses. This is probably where you disagree?
[...]


I measured the combo A7CR and FE50/1.4 GM (and a couple of other lenses). This "measurment" was only about how I could see the line pairs when shooting a USAF test chart so the contrast is a question mark.
In the center of the image the resolution increased from around 100 lp/mm to around 160 lp/mm. That's 60%. Towards the edges the values were lower. Here:






I tried a couple of other lenses as well. The results were not as good as with the very sharp 50/1.4. I recall I once could see no improvement at the edges and only minor improvement in the center.



Nov 07, 2025 at 08:08 AM
aCuria
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p.4 #8 · Small Compact Camera A7C2 vs A7CR vs others


Jonas B wrote:
I measured the combo A7CR and FE50/1.4 GM (and a couple of other lenses). This "measurment" was only about how I could see the line pairs when shooting a USAF test chart so the contrast is a question mark.
In the center of the image the resolution increased from around 100 lp/mm to around 160 lp/mm. That's 60%. Towards the edges the values were lower. Here:
https://photos.imageevent.com/jonas_b/fotoforum2022andfw/A7CR_5014GM_pxl_shift_result.jpg

I tried a couple of other lenses as well. The results were not as good as with the very sharp 50/1.4. I recall I once could see no improvement at the edges and only minor
...Show more

I don't own it, but from reviews the FE50/1.4 GM is probably in the top 3 lenses Sony makes in terms of resolution.

Jonas B wrote:
I tried a couple of other lenses as well. The results were not as good as with the very sharp 50/1.4. I recall I once could see no improvement at the edges and only minor improvement in the center.


This is what I would expect of most lenses.

Did you test the FE50/1.4 GM at f/1.4, and is the 60MP on your chart referring to pixel shift x4 or just a regular shot

We do have the USAF test chart, my understanding from using this is that its very sensitive to setup (how far the chart is from the camera), and the results are in "chart space" (chart_lp/mm). Its not so easy to compare lenses with different focal lengths on this because the tripod has to move with respect to the chart each time and the magnification of the shot is different with different lenses



Nov 07, 2025 at 11:33 AM
Jonas B
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p.4 #9 · Small Compact Camera A7C2 vs A7CR vs others


aCuria wrote:
[...]
Did you test the FE50/1.4 GM at f/1.4, and is the 60MP on your chart referring to pixel shift x4 or just a regular shot

We do have the USAF test chart, my understanding from using this is that its very sensitive to setup (how far the chart is from the camera), and the results are in "chart space" (chart_lp/mm). Its not so easy to compare lenses with different focal lengths on this because the tripod has to move with respect to the chart each time and the magnification of the shot is different with different lenses


• The two rows marked 60MP are measures from images with no pixel shift and the rows marked 241MP are measures from images with 16x pixelshift. The real thing. The x4 is "only" to get a clearly cleaner look with the colors in order.
Back in Mars 2024 I posted this:






• The USAF charts can be evaluated from any distance. It's a bit math involved but you can use any sensible camera-target distance. Thevalues in last post is from a setup with the target 5 meters from the camera. At 1.25 meters the value for ƒ1.4 at 1.25 meter was somewhere about 95 lp/mm.

• The USAF test is great as you know what your target is from time to time. The fact you look at the images yourself ( and not let a software evaluate them) comes with its own set of pros and cons. You get an immediate feel for the quality but your results may differ from day to day depending on your eye-sight and other things. With some experience the results match IMA-test numbers surprisingly good.



Nov 07, 2025 at 01:28 PM
Jonas B
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p.4 #10 · Small Compact Camera A7C2 vs A7CR vs others


aCuria wrote:
[...]
However I also think the amount of extra detail is not enough to be significant, especially on more average lenses. This is probably where you disagree?

Personally if i can go up one paper size that's significant. 8x12 to 12x18" needs 50% more vertical resolution, and 12x18" to 16x24" requires 33%.

Doubling the sensor area (M43 -> aspc) or (apsc -> FF) will give you this 50% more vertical resolution.[...]


The text above is from your recent conversation with j4nu.
Surely you now can agree we can get (have the potential) a significant increase in resolution, clearly enough to buy larger papers.
The FE 50/1.4 GM is a top lens when it comes to resolving power. (I have sold it for other reasons.) I do however have several other lenses as well where the resolution is increased with at least 40-50% when going through the pixel shift 16 process.
I seldom do that as the A1 50MP is good enough for nearly everything. The 4 image process to get rid of false colors is useful more often.

(As usual: All in my opinion and experience. Anyone else should be able to get the same or better results.)



Nov 08, 2025 at 02:41 PM
 


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Lukacs
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p.4 #11 · Small Compact Camera A7C2 vs A7CR vs others


I think 16 image pixel shift is a gimmick, no lens can resolve that small "generated" pixel size.
4 pixel sift may worth it with non moving subjects eliminating color artifacts from Bayer structure, maximising color information. Like photographing fabrics, paintings, museum stuff.



Nov 08, 2025 at 03:28 PM
Jonas B
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p.4 #12 · Small Compact Camera A7C2 vs A7CR vs others


Lukacs wrote:
I think 16 image pixel shift is a gimmick, no lens can resolve that small "generated" pixel size.[...]


?
What do think about the images of the USAF test chart I provided here?




Nov 08, 2025 at 04:08 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.4 #13 · Small Compact Camera A7C2 vs A7CR vs others


Jonas B wrote:
The text above is from your recent conversation with j4nu.
Surely you now can agree we can get (have the potential) a significant increase in resolution, clearly enough to buy larger papers.
The FE 50/1.4 GM is a top lens when it comes to resolving power. (I have sold it for other reasons.) I do however have several other lenses as well where the resolution is increased with at least 40-50% when going through the pixel shift 16 process.
I seldom do that as the A1 50MP is good enough for nearly everything. The 4 image process to get rid of false
...Show more

At the print sizes mentioned above (18” on the long side) none of this really matters. You can get an exceptionally sharp print from just about any decent camera made in the past decade and with any decent lens, and with formats as small as MFT. (In fact, I’ve seen excellent prints from iPhones on 13” x 19” paper. :-)

No one can deny that things like pixel shift, higher MP sensors, larger sensors, ideal lenses, careful focus, thoughtful aperture selection, great attention to camera stability will generate files that have more image data.

But that doesn’t mean that it will make a difference in all or even most cases. In cases where the reproduction size is very large (with a carefull made exposure and where the post-processing and printing is highly competent), this can make a difference that matters for high-end work. But anyone doing that kind of work probably already understand this.



Nov 08, 2025 at 04:32 PM
Jonas B
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p.4 #14 · Small Compact Camera A7C2 vs A7CR vs others


gdanmitchell wrote:
At the print sizes mentioned above (18” on the long side) none of this really matters. You can get an exceptionally sharp print from just about any decent camera made in the past decade and with any decent lens, and with formats as small as MFT. (In fact, I’ve seen excellent prints from iPhones on 13” x 19” paper. :-)

No one can deny that things like pixel shift, higher MP sensors, larger sensors, ideal lenses, careful focus, thoughtful aperture selection, great attention to camera stability will generate files that have more image data.

But that doesn’t mean that it will
...Show more

I think so to. But it's nice being, potentially, able to make something better than an iPhone, don't you agree?



Nov 08, 2025 at 04:51 PM
Lukacs
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p.4 #15 · Small Compact Camera A7C2 vs A7CR vs others


Jonas B wrote:
?
What do think about the images of the USAF test chart I provided here?



I think this is good for measuring a lens maximum resolving capability. In terms of 50GM maybe over 100-120MP the lens can't resolve more detail at any aperture. On what aperture is even a peak sharpness on a 100MP FF sensor, before diffraction steps in? F3.5 maybe? And on 240MP? F1.8?
The real world usage beyond test charts is quite limited. It takes extremely long time capturing 16 images, so absolute no motion on the scene is required. f2.8-f3.5 aperture demands precise focusing, at landscapes the field curvature also a problem at f2.8-f4, and sharpness at edges rarely peak on this apertures, instead f5.6-f8 but then the problem is diffraction which is reducing sharpness over f5.6, even on 60MP.



Nov 08, 2025 at 05:10 PM
tsdevine
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p.4 #16 · Small Compact Camera A7C2 vs A7CR vs others


I don't know, not sure I get hung up so much on the practicality, When conditions are right, I give them a go. When they aren't, I don't.

Here's a portion of a 16 shot pixelshift with an a7R V and GFX100S II. The Sony was shot at 14mm & f/6.3 and the Fuji at 16mm effective & f/8.







Often when I can shoot 4 shot pixelshift, I can also do 16. So I usually do 16, irrespective of how much of a difference it makes.



Nov 08, 2025 at 05:30 PM
Jonas B
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p.4 #17 · Small Compact Camera A7C2 vs A7CR vs others


Lukacs wrote:
I think this is good for measuring a lens maximum resolving capability. In terms of 50GM maybe over 100-120MP the lens can't resolve more detail at any aperture. On what aperture is even a peak sharpness on a 100MP FF sensor, before diffraction steps in? F3.5 maybe? And on 240MP? F1.8?
The real world usage beyond test charts is quite limited. It takes extremely long time capturing 16 images, so absolute no motion on the scene is required. f2.8-f3.5 aperture demands precise focusing, at landscapes the field curvature also a problem at f2.8-f4, and sharpness at edges rarely peak on this
...Show more

What you think doesn't work, based on theory, is actually fully possible when the conditions are right. You need a good tripod and a static subject. You can try it and then get back here. I'm the first to admit that the usefulness of this feature is limited but i certainly prefer having the possibility than not.



Nov 08, 2025 at 05:43 PM
Jonas B
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p.4 #18 · Small Compact Camera A7C2 vs A7CR vs others


tsdevine wrote:
I don't know, not sure I get hung up so much on the practicality, When conditions are right, I give them a go. When they aren't, I don't.

Here's a portion of a 16 shot pixelshift with an a7R V and GFX100S II. The Sony was shot at 14mm & f/6.3 and the Fuji at 16mm effective & f/8.







Often when I can shoot 4 shot pixelshift, I can also do 16. So I usually do 16, irrespective of how much of a difference it makes.


Great comparison!
Yes, I often take 16 images as well also when not planning to use more than 4 of them.



Nov 08, 2025 at 05:48 PM
aCuria
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p.4 #19 · Small Compact Camera A7C2 vs A7CR vs others


Jonas B wrote:
The text above is from your recent conversation with j4nu.
Surely you now can agree we can get (have the potential) a significant increase in resolution, clearly enough to buy larger papers.
The FE 50/1.4 GM is a top lens when it comes to resolving power. (I have sold it for other reasons.) I do however have several other lenses as well where the resolution is increased with at least 40-50% when going through the pixel shift 16 process.
I seldom do that as the A1 50MP is good enough for nearly everything. The 4 image process to get rid of false
...Show more

Jonas, the sample shows that with the 50 mm f/1.4 GM stopped down to f/2.8, you can resolve around 160 lp/mm at very low contrast when using pixel shift.

Using the USAF test chart is roughly equivalent to an MTF-5 or MTF-10 measurement.

I still have a few doubts, though:

1) MTF 5 is less meaningful for determining how large we can print. For that, we should look at MTF-50, since improvements at MTF-50 correspond most closely to what the human eye perceives as increased sharpness. I suppose we could run additional tests to determine the MTF-50.

2) It’s not clear to me that the higher resolution seen in pixel shift mode would directly translate to the same results on a higher-MP Bayer sensor. After all, a Bayer sensor effectively discards two-thirds of the incoming light for each color channel, putting it at a relative disadvantage. I do not know how much to discount the results.

3) We should also consider what real-world shooting conditions our tests are meant to represent. For example, when using an f/2.8 zoom, I wouldn’t normally switch to a prime just to shoot at f/2.8 or slower.

So if the advantages of a high-MP sensor only become noticeable when using something like the 50 mm f/1.4 GM at f/2.8 or slower, would you then consider today’s lenses already “good enough”?

I don't really consider this good enough



Nov 09, 2025 at 01:04 AM
j4nu
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p.4 #20 · Small Compact Camera A7C2 vs A7CR vs others


tsdevine wrote:
I don't know, not sure I get hung up so much on the practicality, When conditions are right, I give them a go. When they aren't, I don't.

Here's a portion of a 16 shot pixelshift with an a7R V and GFX100S II. The Sony was shot at 14mm & f/6.3 and the Fuji at 16mm effective & f/8.







Often when I can shoot 4 shot pixelshift, I can also do 16. So I usually do 16, irrespective of how much of a difference it makes.


Is Sony on the left? They are surprisingly close considering one is native 100 mpx with a lens to match...



Nov 09, 2025 at 07:39 AM
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