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After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon

  
 
j4nu
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p.14 #1 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


Well said!
I guess what I'm wondering about is:
if we take 2 imaginary sensors, one with 10EV DR and the other with 8EV DR, will the former show more "tonal gradiatons" in the overlapping range



Sep 26, 2025 at 07:06 AM
ruthenium
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p.14 #2 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


As aCuria noted "as ISO increases DR decreases and tonal gradations get worse."
The increase in ISO is caused by diminishing light. In increasingly diminishing light, the signal to ADC is increasingly populated by the electronic noise. Then the meagre light is squeezed into a smaller and smaller upper area of the ADC DR where the range of numbers for that low light intensity is small. This naturally leads to a very poor PDR (photographic dynamic range) and to a loss of the fine tonal transitions.



Sep 26, 2025 at 07:11 AM
ruthenium
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p.14 #3 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon



j4nu wrote:
Well said!
I guess what I'm wondering about is:
if we take 2 imaginary sensors, one with 10EV DR and the other with 8EV DR, will the former show more "tonal gradiatons" in the overlapping range

There is no "overlapping range"
The difference between the two is (qualitatively, not in the exact numerical sense) like the difference between a ruler with 1 cm between the ticks and another that has 1 mm between the ticks. The two rules have the same length (from pure black to pure white, in the photography sense) but one is (for example) 10cm long while the other is 100mm long.
This example assumes that the noise is negligible and that the ISO gain is set to match the brightest available light to the largest available number in the ADC.



Sep 26, 2025 at 07:21 AM
j4nu
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p.14 #4 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


ruthenium wrote:
There is no "overlapping range"
The difference between the two is (qualitatively, not in the exact numerical sense) like the difference between a ruler with 1 cm between the ticks and another that has 1 mm between the ticks. The two rules have the same length (from pure black to pure white, in the photography sense) but one is (for example) 10cm long while the other is 100mm long.
This example assumes that the noise is negligible and that the ISO gain is set to match the brightest available light to the largest available number in the ADC.


Yes, I think your analogy is better than mine.
Basically, both rulers span the same range but with different number of steps (with a caveat below).
With mine I basically wanted to say what this dpr article does: https://www.dpreview.com/articles/9992168923/more-than-a-number-a-closer-look-at-dynamic-range-part-1

Though, I think what makes this "photo ruler" more complex is that it might have a different number of ticks in different ranges (due to the steepness of the curve, however it's called - the one from the article explaining Sony lossy compression).

But I guess it means both yes and no to my question, which might have been improperly stated from the start ...

Edited on Sep 26, 2025 at 05:51 PM · View previous versions



Sep 26, 2025 at 07:39 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.14 #5 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


ruthenium wrote:
Steve, you make a good point here. Thus, the question is "what does the term 'tonal gradations' mean?"
Chat GPT, conveniently supplies the following:
"👉 Tonal gradations refer to the smooth, gradual transitions between different tones — usually shades of light and dark, or subtle differences in color or brightness.
For example:
In a black-and-white photograph, tonal gradations are the smooth changes from pure black through many shades of gray to pure white.
In a painting or digital image, tonal gradations describe how one color blends gradually into another"

The first of the two meanings is what we normally think of as the Dynamic range.
...Show more

Hi Dimitri,

I am not sure color depth is related to DR directly as it is likely affected by the color filter array and post processing. When DXO measures color depth they no doubt are using their own software for the RAW conversion and I believe they are analyzing the colors that come out of their RAW conversion. It is quite possible that a different RAW converter would get different numbers. So what DXO is measuring as color depth is that light intensity under Red, Green, and Blue pixels as interpreted by their RAW converter. Certainly more light intensity will mean better colors, but the filter array will play a role as will the RAW conversion, I believe. And DR is not simply light intensity.

From a causal modeling point of view, I suspect that light intensity leads to DR and light intensity also leads to color depth, so DR and color depth will be correlated with each other but not causal related and I further suspect that a given color array may have to make tradeoffs between DR and color depth. Increasing DR by lightening the intensity of the color filtration might well lead to less color depth. So, it is possible that even though DR and color depth are correlated increasing one from an engineering standpoint can come at the cost of increasing the other. Some things like increasing light intensity will improve both, but that doesn't mean they are causally related.



Sep 26, 2025 at 09:18 AM
Ripolini
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p.14 #6 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


aCuria wrote:
This one has less to do with DR.
- EOS R autofocus was not good enough yet, for example there's no eye-AF in AF-C and AF was not very reliable. I tried it and figured it was better to use a DSLR like the D750
- The EOS R competed directly with the A7III, the A7III is a better camera and not by a small margin.

Regarding DR the Z6iii sets a very low bar and did not even exist back then. If you want to compare DR use the D750 as a baseline... It beats the Z6iii by a stop or
...Show more

OK. You were referring to EOS R autofocus. Anyway, a friend of mine owns the EOS R and has never complained about the autofocus. Probably his more than thirty years of experience help. He doesn't photograph neither BIF nor sport though.

Anyway, as for the Z6III and D750, I wonder how important the difference in DR (10.44 and 11.48 EV at ISO 100, respectively) really is from a "practical" (i.e., photographic) point of view. I use a Z6, and when I had to pull up the shadows, I encountered banding issues in maybe 1 or 2 photos out of over 21,000 shots.



Sep 26, 2025 at 11:00 AM
aCuria
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p.14 #7 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


j4nu wrote:
Well said!
I guess what I'm wondering about is:
if we take 2 imaginary sensors, one with 10EV DR and the other with 8EV DR, will the former show more "tonal gradiatons" in the overlapping range



Greg did claim his A7RV @ISO1000 shows more "tonal gradations" than his Nikon Z8 @ISO720



Sep 26, 2025 at 11:20 AM
old-gregg
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p.14 #8 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


Steve Spencer wrote:
I am not sure color depth is related to DR directly...


Steve, not only they are related, but in a way color depth is exactly the same thing as DR. Again, people often make the mistake of treating dynamic range as some kind of "lightness corridor" with lower and upper bounds.

Instead, a much broader and accurate way to think about DR is number of photons captured. This is why large format delivered better results than medium format, and even better than 35mm format. And this is why bigger sensors are better: bigger surface area = more photons. And this is why dynamic range doesn't depend on the ISO setting of a camera, you are not changing the number of captured photons, that's just digital gain (multiplication).

More photons per unit area = more accurate color. Fewer photons means fewer datapoints to extrapolate and recostruct color from. This is why in the samples I posted you can see the RAW converter dropping saturation in the shadows from the Z8 sensor.



Sep 26, 2025 at 11:31 AM
aCuria
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p.14 #9 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


Ripolini wrote:
OK. You were referring to EOS R autofocus. Anyway, a friend of mine owns the EOS R and has never complained about the autofocus. Probably his more than thirty years of experience help. He doesn't photograph neither BIF nor sport though.

Anyway, as for the Z6III and D750, I wonder how important the difference in DR (10.44 and 11.48 EV at ISO 100, respectively) really is from a "practical" (i.e., photographic) point of view. I use a Z6, and when I had to pull up the shadows, I encountered banding issues in maybe 1 or 2 photos out of over 21,000
...Show more

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-r/11

This is what DPR has to say about the EOS R.

  1. Dynamic range and noise performance lag behind the competition
  2. Very difficult to follow moving subjects while shooting bursts
  3. Dual Pixel AF is surprisingly unreliable in video shooting
  4. AF struggles in back-lit scenarios
  5. 4K video comes with substantial 1.8x crop


If the EOS R were better maybe I would be still shooting Canon.

You can try turning on zebras set to 100% on your camera. Shots where you see zebras on the review screen is where you would benefit from more DR for sure.

Insufficient "color depth" (Using Steve's terminology) is not just banding, it could show up as a “flat” look in the skin tones compared to images shot with a different sensor.




Sep 26, 2025 at 11:49 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.14 #10 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


old-gregg wrote:
Steve, not only they are related, but in a way color depth is exactly the same thing as DR. Again, people often make the mistake of treating dynamic range as some kind of "lightness corridor" with lower and upper bounds.

Instead, a much broader and accurate way to think about DR is number of photons captured. This is why large format delivered better results than medium format, and even better than 35mm format. And this is why bigger sensors are better: bigger surface area = more photons. And this is why dynamic range doesn't depend on the ISO setting of a
...Show more

Greg, I think you aren't appreciating the effect of the Bayer color filter array. It is absolutely true that the more photons that hit the sensor the more DR you will have and the more color depth you will have, but DR and color depth can and should be distinguished and I do not believe they are causally related and here is how I think it works:

As the photons hit the sensor, they hit one of three types of pixels (Red, Green, or Blue). Now those photons move at a particular wavelength. The don't hit the sensor if the Red, Green, or Blue color filter blocks them. These color filters are not so precise that they block all wavelengths save one, but rather the red pixels block few photons with wavelengths in the red spectrum and most photons with wavelengths in the green and blue spectrum. Likewise the green pixels block few photons in the green spectrum and most photons in the blue and red spectrums. DR is determined by how many photons actually hit the sensor and are not blocked by the filter array. Color depth, however, is improved the more the filter array blocks photons from the non-targeted wavelengths. If you do really good color filtration then fewer photons will hit the sensor and you will have a little less DR, but better color depth because the individual pixels will respond better to the appropriate wavelengths of light. More light (i.e., more photons) means each pixel has more data to work with and responds better. More light (i.e., more photons) means more photons hit the sensor, so more DR as well. Both go up with more photons, but they are not causally related and there is a tradeoff between color depth and DR based on how much the filter array blocks photons from non-targeted wavelengths.

At least that is the way I think it works.



Sep 26, 2025 at 12:46 PM
 


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j4nu
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p.14 #11 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


aCuria wrote:
Greg did claim his A7RV @ISO1000 shows more "tonal gradations" than his Nikon Z8 @ISO720


Yes, but to be honest I don't see anything conclusive in those 2 pictures.

I think I'm with @Steve Spencer on this DR vs "tonal gradiations" topic, there is a correlation between them but it's not that simplistic...



Sep 26, 2025 at 01:05 PM
old-gregg
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p.14 #12 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


Steve Spencer wrote:
At least that is the way I think it works.


Steve, you are correct. In that sense, a color filter array, because it's job is to filter things out, acts as an additional restrictor to both DR and color depth. I've looked at spectral spikes of films and sensors. On film, the CMY emulsion layers act very much in a similar way to the Bayer array, each layer responding to specific wavelength, but it's not a clean spike, it's a hump which overlaps with other layers when C bleeds to M, and M bleeds to Y, just like color filter array's RGB humps bleed into each other. But we have learned and know how to deal with those impurities a long time ago, both chemically (masks) and digitally (DSP), so there's not much to innovate or discuss. When folks sometimes claim that brand X delivers better color due to some "secret sauce" in their Bayer array, I call BS. As long as you have enough photons (data), modern algorithms deliver color accuracy exceeding the reproduction mediums (monitors, paper, etc) on any 3, even impure, primaries. In other words, in practice color filter arrays don't really matter anymore. In a sense that it's a commondity technology.



Sep 26, 2025 at 01:22 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.14 #13 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


old-gregg wrote:
Steve, you are correct. In that sense, a color filter array, because it's job is to filter things out, acts as an additional restrictor to both DR and color depth. I've looked at spectral spikes of films and sensors. On film, the CMY emulsion layers act very much in a similar way to the Bayer array, each layer responding to specific wavelength, but it's not a clean spike, it's a hump which overlaps with other layers when C bleeds to M, and M bleeds to Y, just like color filter array's RGB humps bleed into each other. But we have
...Show more

Sony makes so many of the sensors I am not even sure that the filter arrays are different at all in the cameras we are discussing. Only Sony knows and they probably aren't going to tell us. Still it is important to keep different consequences from the same cause separate even though they are correlated and we shouldn't conflate such different consequences as if they are the same thing.

For example, we know that an f/1.4 lens shot with a 1/500 second shutter speed will have about the same number of photons hitting the sensor on a Sony A7r V as on a Nikon Z6 III. Yet, at the same ISO the A7r V will have more photographic DR than the Nikon Z6 III. Why? Is it partially the filter array? Perhaps, but like you I doubt that as I expect very similar filter arrays. Is it because the Sony camera is more efficient at converting photons to electric signals, what is often call quantum efficiency? I suspect that is it, but that quantum efficiency may or may not be related to color depth. That is a separate issue. Just because it affects DR does not necessarily mean it will also affect color depth.



Sep 26, 2025 at 03:08 PM
old-gregg
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p.14 #14 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


Steve Spencer wrote:
we know that an f/1.4 lens shot with a 1/500 second shutter speed will have about the same number of photons hitting the sensor on a Sony A7r V as on a Nikon Z6 III. Yet, at the same ISO the A7r V will have more photographic DR than the Nikon Z6 III. Why?


Noise caused by heat caused by the extra speed of the Z8 sensor. To be able to read the entire sensor under 1/270 of a second, Nikon had to push more logic (transistors) onto the chip, and clock it higher. This results in extra noise, which means the S/N floor is higher, which means some of the photons captured by photosites are wasted.



Sep 26, 2025 at 04:44 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.14 #15 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


old-gregg wrote:
Noise caused by heat caused by the extra speed of the Z8 sensor. To be able to read the entire sensor under 1/270 of a second, Nikon had to push more logic (transistors) onto the chip, and clock it higher. This results in extra noise, which means the S/N floor is higher, which means some of the photons captured by photosites are wasted.


I think that is one possibility, but I think it may not be the only or perhaps even the primary reason and whatever is affecting DR may not be affecting color depth.



Sep 26, 2025 at 04:49 PM
j4nu
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p.14 #16 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


Well, I've seen here the Nikonians claim the better "color science" on the Nikon is due different CFA, at the cost of DR...
Who know, who knows .

+ Z8/Z9 has fewer pixels, which explains a bit the slightly higher readout speed compared to A1/A1II .



Sep 26, 2025 at 05:56 PM
MikeEvangelist
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p.14 #17 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


RoamingScott wrote:
Oof, hope you don't get slapped with those fees I keep hearing about. I've stopped buying Japanese for a bit just to hedge my bets even though list prices are cheaper.


The lens arrived via DHL and as far as I'm aware no tariff was charged. There was a brief 'your shipment requires special clearance' message on the tracking site a few days ago, but from then everything appears to have proceeded normally. I'm happy.



Sep 29, 2025 at 02:36 PM
mojoh
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p.14 #18 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


Wow Mike, that will be your 4th Nikkor lens?
Things are moving warp speed in Nikland
Soon u won't need the Megadap anymore..

Nice lens choice..
https://photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-z-180-600mm-f-5-6-6-3-vr/5

Hope to see your shots soon..



Oct 01, 2025 at 02:23 PM
MikeEvangelist
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p.14 #19 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon


mojoh wrote:
Wow Mike, that will be your 4th Nikkor lens?
Things are moving warp speed in Nikland
Soon u won't need the Megadap anymore..

Nice lens choice..


Yes, 14-30mm, 24-120mm, 180-600mm, plus a 40mm SE for laughs.

My only remaining Sony mount lenses are a couple A-mounts, which I'm thinking of selling, so the Megadap will be extraneous.



Oct 01, 2025 at 02:26 PM
RoamingScott
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p.14 #20 · After 13 years of all Sony, I'm trying Nikon









Oct 01, 2025 at 02:27 PM
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