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Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?

  
 
DWOfPaul
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p.4 #1 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?


A74me wrote:
you quoted all the features that degrade image quality and video quality. i just compared the new R5ii for video and even the a6700 walks all over it, and so does the a7iv, its why sony just bought out the FX2 as the top hybrid camera.


It really depends on your needs. Stacked sensors hurt dynamic range from about iso 200-640. At base ISO stacked and non stacked sensors are very close, and by ISO 800, pretty much all differences disappear.

Take a look at the comparison below:
https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Sony-A1-versus-Sony-A7IV-versus-Sony-A7R-V___1365_1376_1385

Stacked sensors are often used in high ISO environments, but even if you happen to be in the ISO range where stacked sensors are at a disadvantage, they can still enable you to get photos you would have otherwise not gotten at all. Such as if you are in a situation that does not allow you to use a camera that makes any sound, due to audio recording being in progress.

Admittedly, I know considerably less about Canon than I do Sony and Nikon, but on the surface, I think it once again comes down to the video content you are trying to record. If your needs require 8k or internal Raw video, the R5 II is the only camera on your list that has those requirements. If 10bit 4k is all you need, I agree that the Sony cameras are probably better for your needs.

If the video content you are filming is affected by rolling shutter through a stacked sensor may offer you a great benefit. Let's take the a1 vs the a7IV, since that's a comparison that is readily available. At 4k 30p the a1 has a rolling shutter of 1/125, the a7IV has a rolling shutter of 1/37. That means the a1 will have about 1/3 the rolling shutter artifacts of the a7IV.

If you want to see more data you can dig in here:
https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/

At the end of the day, people are trying to create photos and videos in a vast number of different conditions. So it's great that we are getting a larger range of tools at our disposal. I personally don't have a need for an a9III, but I definitely see how a global shutter sensor can be game changing to some.



Jul 10, 2025 at 12:53 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.4 #2 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?


No, I don't think I'm missing the mark. I started looking at these comparisons years ago. While the Sony inflation adjusted price in this case is pretty constant over time, quite a few other cameras I have looked at have actually gotten less expensive in those terms.

Look into it — there are tons of examples. You can easily find inflation calculators online that let you plug in the list price at the time an earlier model was released and find out what the equivalent cost would be today.

As to the situation with young people, I understand, though I don't think it is as different as you think. Both of my sons do photography, one as part of his job. They both started with thrift store cameras and lenses that they picked up on the cheap — and they were thrilled to have them. They've since moved on to more modern stuff.

To a young buyer who wants to consider staring out with top end equipment — camera, lenses, tripod, bags/packs and all the rest of it — that has always been a very big lift, I'm afraid.

There are less-expensive new options, too. I'm not up enough on the Sony line-up to say what they are. (I'm mainly here to learn more about Sony in anticipation of a possible future move to the brand.) I'm more familiar with Canon, and that brand does have a bunch of less-expensive, entry-level bodies, just as in the past. You can get a FF RP for $799. (Back when I got my first FF body, the Canon 5D, shortly after it came out it was the least expensive FF body available... with a list price of $3300! In 2025 funds that would be $5,431.)

Again, I don't mean to lessen difficulties and costs of getting into photography with new equipment, but the truth is that if you follow any of the paths we followed back in the day and compare inflation adjusted prices between current and earlier options... I think you'll be surprised to find that things aren't more expensive today.

Dave Sanders wrote:
Your points are all well made - but it's still missing the mark. It's great that expensive cameras are costing the same or less, adjusted for inflation, but the price of the latest 'R' is irrelevant as it is not a low end, entry level camera. Young people cannot walk in to, say, Best Buy and buy Sony cameras that are cost competitive, and certainly not a FF camera.

An A7RII (my current camera, yikes!) may have cost $3200 in 2015, which was a lot...but there were a ton of options in the DSLR world for young people or
...Show more




Jul 10, 2025 at 01:49 PM
Dave Sanders
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p.4 #3 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?


Dan, you did indeed miss the mark, missed it again, then proved my point.

You're right, Canon does have some great affordable entry level models - so does Nikon. Sony doesn't. Hence the name of this thread: Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?


gdanmitchell wrote:
No, I don't think I'm missing the mark. I started looking at these comparisons years ago. While the Sony inflation adjusted price in this case is pretty constant over time, quite a few other cameras I have looked at have actually gotten less expensive in those terms.

Look into it — there are tons of examples. You can easily find inflation calculators online that let you plug in the list price at the time an earlier model was released and find out what the equivalent cost would be today.

As to the situation with young people, I understand, though I don't
...Show more




Jul 10, 2025 at 02:27 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.4 #4 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?


OK, I see your point about Sony in particular. A quick check showed that their current low price for a FF body (on a discounted model) is $1500. I see a new FF Nikon for $1100, and as I mentioned earlier there are even less expensive FF bodies from Canon — the rather old (released 6 years ago) RP is available for $800 and the more contemporary R8 goes for a (currently discounted) price of $1400.

So…

… if you are looking for the least expensive new FF body from the Big Three, your current least expensive option is that somewhat dated Canon RP. For some users that could be a fine starter camera — though it was one of the very first mirrorless ILC bodies that Canon produced.

… if you are looking for a more contemporary camera, Nikon offers the best price currently on a new FF body at $1100. (The Z5 I think?)

… the current discounted prices for more contemporary Canon and Sony FF bodies are pretty close — $1500 for the least expensive Sony and $1400 for the Canon R8. (The un-discounted price difference will be larger, though with looming tariff confusion, who knows what these things will actually cost?)

I wonder — have. you looked into the full costs of bodies and lenses for a system from the three manufacturers? (Here Sony, I believe, as a bit of an advantage with a lot of third party options. That’s not the case with Canon R-series bodies, and I don’t know about Nikon.)

Added later: Thinking about your point about the subject of the thread… there’s a subtlety you seem to miss: it isn’t just about “low” end cameras but low to “middle” range offerings. Sone clearly doesn’t have anything at the very bottom of the price range like the (very old) Canon RP, but things are a bit more complicated in that middle range, where Sony and Canon are close and Nikon is less expensive.


Dave Sanders wrote:
Dan, you did indeed miss the mark, missed it again, then proved my point.

You're right, Canon does have some great affordable entry level models - so does Nikon. Sony doesn't. Hence the name of this thread: Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?






Edited on Jul 11, 2025 at 07:50 AM · View previous versions



Jul 10, 2025 at 03:17 PM
Dave Sanders
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p.4 #5 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?


In Canada:

Sony A7IV is $2900
Nikon Z5 is $2300
Canon R8 is $1900
Canon RP is $1200

I'm not arguing if things are more expensive today, inflation adjusted or otherwise. I'm deeply acquainted with all of this - that's an unrelated conversation.

The discussion is: is Sony missing out on new users by not having entry or mid level models at a competitive price point, FF or otherwise. The answer, I think, is 'yes', even with the wild success of the ZV-E10 series.

Perhaps the better question: does Sony care?

And maybe even better: will the knock-on effects see Canon and Nikon gain market share as photographers mature, earn more money and step up to mid and high level cameras?

gdanmitchell wrote:
OK, I see your point about Sony in particular. A quick check showed that their current low price for a FF body (on a discounted model) is $1500. I see a new FF Nikon for $1100, and as I mentioned earlier there are even less expensive FF bodies from Canon — the rather old (released 6 years ago) RP is available for $800 and the more contemporary R8 goes for a (currently discounted) price of $1400.

So…

… if you are looking for the least expensive new FF body from the Big Three, your current least expensive option is that somewhat
...Show more




Jul 10, 2025 at 03:52 PM
TheEmrys
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p.4 #6 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?


This is a really hard discussion to have when older, but unused (new) models are still sold by Sony, while Canon and Nikon don't have the multiple generations that Sony does.

Entry level and full frame are not easy to do an apples to apples comparison. For heaven's sake, you can still by a brand new a7II at Best Buy. It's an 11 year old body with the 28-70 for $1600. Ridiculous. They sell the a7III with the same kit lens for $1700. Still not terribly reasonable.

Sony has such a backlog of unsold bodies, they have little incentive to create a new entry level when their old models are still sitting on shelves.

Sony needs to fire sale their old bodies, then we may see a new entry level body.



Jul 10, 2025 at 04:11 PM
chez
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p.4 #7 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?


TheEmrys wrote:
This is a really hard discussion to have when older, but unused (new) models are still sold by Sony, while Canon and Nikon don't have the multiple generations that Sony does.

Entry level and full frame are not easy to do an apples to apples comparison. For heaven's sake, you can still by a brand new a7II at Best Buy. It's an 11 year old body with the 28-70 for $1600. Ridiculous. They sell the a7III with the same kit lens for $1700. Still not terribly reasonable.

Sony has such a backlog of unsold bodies, they have little incentive to
...Show more

6 out of the top 10 mirrorless cameras sold on Amazon are Sony. Sony leads in market share of mirrorless cameras as surveyed on BCN and has increased that share in 2024.

Until sales drop I don’t see Sony doing anything different.



Jul 10, 2025 at 08:15 PM
A74me
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p.4 #8 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?


DWOfPaul wrote:
It really depends on your needs. Stacked sensors hurt dynamic range from about iso 200-640. At base ISO stacked and non stacked sensors are very close, and by ISO 800, pretty much all differences disappear.

Take a look at the comparison below:
https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Sony-A1-versus-Sony-A7IV-versus-Sony-A7R-V___1365_1376_1385

Stacked sensors are often used in high ISO environments, but even if you happen to be in the ISO range where stacked sensors are at a disadvantage, they can still enable you to get photos you would have otherwise not gotten at all. Such as if you are in a situation that does not allow you to use
...Show more






Jul 11, 2025 at 04:44 AM
Dave Sanders
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p.4 #9 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?


chez wrote:
6 out of the top 10 mirrorless cameras sold on Amazon are Sony. Sony leads in market share of mirrorless cameras as surveyed on BCN and has increased that share in 2024.

Until sales drop I don’t see Sony doing anything different.


Most of those sales are related to the EV-10 series, especially in Japan. In the US they seem driven by not just the EV10 but older APS-C and FF models. 4 of the top 6 on Amazon are cheaper Canon R series models.

That said, you're likely right: I doubt Sony sees a need to add a competing model when selling excess stock of older models at a discount is working well.



Jul 11, 2025 at 01:04 PM
pjmsj21
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p.4 #10 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?


I would think that Sony has the A7V sitting in boxes, while waiting to finalize pricing in light of these crazy tariff gyrations. I’m pretty confident that Sony will always be a major player in photography, because of their technology resources.


Jul 11, 2025 at 01:37 PM
 


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DWOfPaul
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p.4 #11 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?


A74me wrote:




That's definitely an insightful video into the market they were going for with the fx2. Years ago, I filmed a lot of interview style content, which it sounds like the fx2 would be great for that type of content. They specifically talk a lot about targeting content creators, who now make a lot of interview style content for podcasts / vlogs / reviews / how to's. I am sure the fx2 will also work well for content with moderate action too. But personally, if I were going to jump back into video, I am looking for mostly 8k and probably 8k raw. Granted, the type of content I have in mind is very different then the above. What's amazing to me is that video specs that 10 years ago required 10s of thousands of dollars can now be had in camera for a few thousand dollars. The bar for entry to creating quality content has never been so low. We now have very successful YouTubers who started by filming videos on their phones. It's a great time to be a creator, no matter what type of content you are aiming for.



Jul 11, 2025 at 01:48 PM
Craig Gillette
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p.4 #12 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?


It might "help" Sony short term to sell obsolescent models to casual, big box, infrequent buyers, who casually want more than a phone or camera but don't have much interest/insight beyond that. Many may go many years before considering another phone or camera. But, Sony should, I'd think, be interested in capturing budding enthusiasts, and if the price competitive models for "entry" sales are 2024, 2025 models or early 2020s or even earlier, who might be more likely to draw the attention and sales? It takes a while for new enthusiasts to grow in actual knowledge and wanting to maybe grow through other lenses and/or bodies, and most are likely to stay in system, not jump.

It may well be that an A6700 could be a "better" camera than a stripper ff, but sony doesn't have a bargain ff to even offer.



Jul 11, 2025 at 03:04 PM
tschopp
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p.4 #13 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?


I have often wondered why Sony didn’t try to compete against the Canon Rebel line. Maybe they ran the numbers and decided it wasn’t really the target audience they were looking for. I know people who have gotten a rebel with a kit lens or maybe 2. Mostly those cameras sit in a closet unused and I think supplanted by cell phones that can be very competitive against a cheap kit lens.

As far as Sony competitiveness, I look at the sensor tech first. It seems like Sony makes the sensor for everyone except Canon. The pixels used in the A7Rv seem like they are the cutting edge for image quality. You find essentially the same pixel in the Fuji GFX100. The Sony stacked and global shutter sensors also seem like cutting edge. If I’m not mistaken it seems like Sony makes most of the stacked sensors going into phones.

If I were the Sony CEO I would offer the following:
Entry aps-c @ 14 MP ( based on crop version of 33MP sensor).
A6700 ( based on crop version of 60MP).
Aps-c stacked 21MP( based on crop version of a1 II).
For FF: stacked 24 & 50, non- stacked 33 & 60, compact versions of the 33 & 60, sharing the same body layout as aps-c if possible.

The aps-c versions could largely share the firmware with the crop mode of the FF versions. The only models missing are the stacked aps-c and the low resolution entry aps-c. I don’t know if Sony worries about cannibalism, that seems like the only reason we don’t have a stacked aps-c.



Jul 11, 2025 at 05:28 PM
wordfool
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p.4 #14 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?


This discussion makes me wonder if we're coming to the end of mirrorless bodies as we know them (ie. essentially a dSLR without a mirror box) and there'll be a paradigm shift in what we think of as a camera body. When I read peoples' lists of potential new cameras that are basically just iterations on the many models that came before I feel like we're going round in circles

How about sticking the A93's global sensor into an actively-cooled body with additional processing power to do some rapid computational image manipulation in-camera with those 120fps? Perhaps boundaries going to become even more blurred between stills and video cameras/functions. If any manufacturer is going to push those boundaries it's probably Sony, or perhaps Nikon now they are in the same stable as Red.

But ultimately the market decides, and if Sony's making plenty of money from its confusingly giant stable of current camera bodies then not much will change. I just hope some of those profits are paying for R&D into the cameras and sensors of the future.



Jul 11, 2025 at 05:52 PM
EB-1
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p.4 #15 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?


Sony won't even make a regular pro camera for people with large hands and you are expecting a body with active cooling and more processing power? That will take more than the 16Wh battery packs everyone is using in the mid-sized bodies. It would be more like what Canon or Nikon uses in the larger bodies.

EBH



Jul 11, 2025 at 06:18 PM
tschopp
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p.4 #16 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?


I like the idea of computational photography based on a global shutter. Seems like we would need significantly more processing power. I wonder if DGI with their acquisition of hassleblad will revolutionize photography. It does raise questions about power, heat, and ultimately size. It seems like maybe trading lens size to capture photons vs cpu and battery. I could see it adding a super “IBIS” that is more effective at fixing camera and subject blur.


Jul 11, 2025 at 06:40 PM
terencepatrick
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p.4 #17 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?


tctmp wrote:
A lot of truths to that, but not completely. Z9 was released almost a year after A1. Did it surpass A1? I think if a company starts leading because it hits the right marks, it usually last more than a generation before competition catches up.


I owned the A1, sold it and got the Z9 upon release of that camera because the specs looked amazing. What I didn't give Sony credit for was the engineering to squeeze as much performance in as small of a package (body & lens) as they did. I travel regularly for work and had a very compact kit of two gripped A1s, the 24-70, 100-400, and 50 1.2 lens plus a Profoto flash into a 26L backpack that could fit under a plane seat. Upon owning the Z9 and getting the same lenses, I was no longer able to use any of the bags or cases I previously owned. I had to get a bigger case, could no longer travel with my lenses attached, yada yada yada. Then everything was much heavier - which was felt going up an NYC walk up many floors. The features like RAW N-Log video that I was initially excited for became kind of a headache because I had to change from Final Cut to Davinci Resolve.

So, what I'm getting at is that while other brands come out with specs and features that are basically playing catch up, Sony was already doing much of these technical capabilities and is now working on the physical qualities of their latest generation of lenses and bodies. GM lenses v1 over v2 usually resulted in significant weight savings with improved optics. The latest generation of body design in the A7RV and A1 II is very good ergonomically. The menu is actually pretty easy to navigate now! Heck, the A1 has had 1/400 flash sync and for someone like me, that's an amazing feature that can't easily be found on other bodies. Maybe Sonys are no longer the darlings of the internet photography world any more but in the professional market Sony is still very much in demand where the relative "slowness" of innovation is a positive as massive changes often negatively affect a whole slew of people and businesses from rental houses, camera assistants, photo assistants, repair techs, etc etc. Just look at the Buy & Sell forum. There's people with *hundreds* of transactions. That's a lot of purchasing and selling as new crap comes out. That can't be good.



Jul 11, 2025 at 07:19 PM
chez
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p.4 #18 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?


Craig Gillette wrote:
It might "help" Sony short term to sell obsolescent models to casual, big box, infrequent buyers, who casually want more than a phone or camera but don't have much interest/insight beyond that. Many may go many years before considering another phone or camera. But, Sony should, I'd think, be interested in capturing budding enthusiasts, and if the price competitive models for "entry" sales are 2024, 2025 models or early 2020s or even earlier, who might be more likely to draw the attention and sales? It takes a while for new enthusiasts to grow in actual knowledge and wanting to
...Show more

Where is it written that an entry level needs to be FF. Does someone just getting into photography really need FF and if you think so, where would they benefit from FF.



Jul 11, 2025 at 11:49 PM
A74me
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p.4 #19 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?


DWOfPaul wrote:
That's definitely an insightful video into the market they were going for with the fx2. Years ago, I filmed a lot of interview style content, which it sounds like the fx2 would be great for that type of content. They specifically talk a lot about targeting content creators, who now make a lot of interview style content for podcasts / vlogs / reviews / how to's. I am sure the fx2 will also work well for content with moderate action too. But personally, if I were going to jump back into video, I am looking for mostly 8k and probably
...Show more

the only thing id use 8k video for is live dance concert video extracting stills. last year i did it with my a7iv at 4k30 frames and shutter speed of 1/320 sec the stills were excelent and good to print A4 prints. i gave the dance school the video and said that they can extract the 220,000 images as i wont be for free 🤨to this date not one order, everyone wants everything for nothing.



Jul 11, 2025 at 11:59 PM
Craig Gillette
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p.4 #20 · Do you feel Sony is falling behind on the low to mid range FF market?


chez wrote:
Where is it written that an entry level needs to be FF. Does someone just getting into photography really need FF and if you think so, where would they benefit from FF.


"Lately, people have started asking if Sony is falling behind Nikon and Canon in the low to mid range FF market."

The discussion is about FF, for example, the $2200 A7iv not being refreshed, released in October 2021. The more recent A7Cii is $2200, too. The aps-c A6700, that I clearly mentioned, otoh is $900 less expensive. Aps-c has always been a fine place to be in photography. But one can't suggest the answer to possibly falling behind in FF is to look at how they are doing in aps-c.

The Nikon line has 4, if I counted right, current ff mirrorless bodies from $1500 to $2000.




Jul 12, 2025 at 12:31 AM
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