Fred Miranda wrote:
Sure, but Leica needs to implement this. Currently, the existing Leica adapter doesn't provide auto magnification with the SL. Hopefully, this feature will be included in the new camera, as many users value auto magnification. Even better would be if new, faster, and more accurate focusing aids replace the need for magnification altogether.
Canon has done that....I have been using the Zeiss 50 ML on a Canon R5mk2. I have yet to even want magnification
I have almost perfect accuracy with it. I can focus just as fast and more accurately then I can my M11P. I see no reason why Leica won't be able to achieve something similar. If it involves magnification, its already a lost cause.
After many pages of conjecture regarding Leica’s new EVF based “M’ camera, I noticed that there seems to be three camps. When I think of a technological hare in camera manufacturing I think of Sony’s rise from early APSC days built on previous Minolta tech to their global shutter and amazing autofocus of today. When I think of tortoise, I imagine the slow innovation of 35mm over Leica’s last one-hundred years.
Now we are considering an EVF based ‘M’ camera. I think most have settled on an ‘M’ form factor. The jury is out regarding inclusion of video, but the make, or break feature is manual focus without electrical contacts on the lenses. Many of us manually focus lenses with cameras possessing more advanced autofocus capability. Leica will need to be that third option of resting somewhere between the tortoise and the hare in order to find the secret manual focus EVF sauce that provides an alternative to the camera systems that we already own. Technological innovation.. That is what it will take to have me looking at this camera. I’m suspecting that I should start to follow the M12, or whatever the next generation will be called, rumor thread that will start shortly after this camera cycle.
I think where Leica can find the 'secret EVF sauce' is in how it is implemented. Camera UI/UX has generally been a Leica strength, so there is IMO reason for optimism that they will indeed bring something unique for M users and manual focus aficionados.
As already discussed, others, such as Canon, already offer very good manual focus assist features, but at least with Canon, it's dependent on RF or EF chipped lenses. If Leica does this without restrictions, such as requiring 6-bit coded lenses, for example, it will be a boon for use of any lens that will physically mount on the camera.
I wouldn't consider Leica a tortoise since the M9. Leica today is a much different company than it was 15 years ago. The in-house improvements they made between the M9, which was mostly outsourced, to the M240, were substantial. The further refinement of the M10 was also notable. Meanwhile they've certainly learned plenty from their cooperation with Panasonic as evidenced in the Q series, which in some respects is unmatched by any other brand.
Instead I'd say Leica has been balanced. They recognize that a huge portion of their brand is built around tradition, so have to be cautious about that aspect. But they've also been pretty darn impressive when it comes to lens design, for example. I think they can be cutting edge, but there is obviously risk with going all-in, in that direction. Like all the other camera brands, I think future products will be measured responses to what otherwise might be wholesale technically possible because they also know what makes an M, an M. Transitioning the M to electronic focusing aids IMO will require honoring the M's rangefinder ancestry, to some degree.
rscheffler wrote:
I think where Leica can find the 'secret EVF sauce' is in how it is implemented. Camera UI/UX has generally been a Leica strength, so there is IMO reason for optimism that they will indeed bring something unique for M users and manual focus aficionados.
As already discussed, others, such as Canon, already offer very good manual focus assist features, but at least with Canon, it's dependent on RF or EF chipped lenses. If Leica does this without restrictions, such as requiring 6-bit coded lenses, for example, it will be a boon for use of any lens that will physically mount on the camera.
I wouldn't consider Leica a tortoise since the M9. Leica today is a much different company than it was 15 years ago. The in-house improvements they made between the M9, which was mostly outsourced, to the M240, were substantial. The further refinement of the M10 was also notable. Meanwhile they've certainly learned plenty from their cooperation with Panasonic as evidenced in the Q series, which in some respects is unmatched by any other brand.
Instead I'd say Leica has been balanced. They recognize that a huge portion of their brand is built around tradition, so have to be cautious about that aspect. But they've also been pretty darn impressive when it comes to lens design, for example. I think they can be cutting edge, but there is obviously risk with going all-in, in that direction. Like all the other camera brands, I think future products will be measured responses to what otherwise might be wholesale technically possible because they also know what makes an M, an M. Transitioning the M to electronic focusing aids IMO will require honoring the M's rangefinder ancestry, to some degree. ...Show more →
I think Leica's strength lies in its purist approach to menus and features. They excel at creating a visually appealing and simple shooting experience, even with their EVF models like the Q and SL. However, when it comes to algorithm innovation and advanced features, they might need some help...maybe Panasonic will come to the rescue. These rumors have been around for a while (about more advanced focusing aids), so they've probably been working on this for some time.
Fred Miranda wrote:
However, when it comes to algorithm innovation and advanced features, they might need some help...
Press release from 2019: "Leica Wetzlar job cuts were mainly in traditional development and marketing departments, while new positions were created for software engineering and digital image processing"
Panasonic is certainly in close collaboration with Leica, but we don't know to which degree - if just mostly for L-based camera technology as part of the L alliance, or if it goes even deeper affecting both M- and Q series.
retrofocus wrote:
Press release from 2019: "Leica Wetzlar job cuts were mainly in traditional development and marketing departments, while new positions were created for software engineering and digital image processing"
Panasonic is certainly in close collaboration with Leica, but we don't know to which degree - if just mostly for L-based camera technology as part of the L alliance, or if it goes even deeper affecting both M- and Q series.
I think the collaboration goes very deep. Leica currently has the M, Q, SL, and D-Lux camera lines. Panasonic seems to be deeply involved in 3 of the four at a minimum. So a collaboration with the EV-1 seems possible.
1bwana1 wrote:
I think the collaboration goes very deep. Leica currently has the M, Q, SL, and D-Lux camera lines. Panasonic seems to be deeply involved in 3 of the four at a minimum. So a collaboration with the EV-1 seems possible.
What technology does Panasonic have that might take this camera to the next level?
bwcolor wrote:
What technology does Panasonic have that might take this camera to the next level?
Panasonic has experience with on sensor focus technology and software. This includes Phase Detection enabled sensors. It is widely believed that this was deployed in the recent SL3-S resulting in much improved focus performance. This could also serve as the base for focus aids on the new EV-1 camera.
bwcolor wrote:
What technology does Panasonic have that might take this camera to the next level?
Compare the SL3-S with the S1II :
LUMIX is a generation ahead, with semi-stacked sensor and more powerful processing ASIC.
This should trickle down to Leica. If they clock it a bit slower to reduce power, that would be far more suited to M body than the current Maestro processor and slow readout sensors.
The Nikon ZR uses similar technology in a body only a little bit bigger than a M - thermals and processing power, along with subject detection are amazing.
FrozenInTime wrote:
LUMIX is a generation ahead, with semi-stacked sensor and more powerful processing ASIC.
This should trickle down to Leica.
Maybe but for a while now, I've been wondering what progress is really useful and for the moment, I do not feel the need for any sensor better than the M11. In fact, I was perfectly happy with the M10.
So I would give half of the 60 Mpix for IBIS, an hybrid viewfinder or at least a rangefinder with an optional electronic focusing help. If no IBIS, even cleaner high iso to always have a high shutter speed, something I find useful when shooting streets anyhow.
1bwana1 wrote:
Panasonic has experience with on sensor focus technology and software. This includes Phase Detection enabled sensors. It is widely believed that this was deployed in the recent SL3-S resulting in much improved focus performance. This could also serve as the base for focus aids on the new EV-1 camera.
All correct - but I still believe that Leica's first rule of engagement (so to speak) is to avoid in-house competition with the SL series regarding the EV1 camera. Therefore I doubt they will use the same level of focus technology as seen in the SL3-S for example - call it crippling if you like, but it is certainly done to distinguish the EV1 enough from any other SL series camera to avoid to lose even more customers from the SL series.
I expect that the EV1 has a focus system one or two generations behind the latest SL series.
retrofocus wrote:
I expect that the EV1 has a focus system one or two generations behind the latest SL series.
Because a small manual focus only camera supporting small M lenses would compete with one of the biggest AF full-frame camera and system on the market?
pmeheut wrote:
Because a small manual focus only camera supporting small M lenses would compete with one of the biggest AF full-frame camera and system on the market?
Yes. Even the EV1 has no AF capability, it can be regarded as in-house threat for Leica with the much more bulky SL camera series and larger lenses. Many users seem to have a smaller powerful EV-based camera instead of the larger SL camera. I can clearly see that some (maybe many?) SL users would jump ship to the EV1 to do potentially do video with smaller M lenses and good manual focus aids since the EV1 also offers exchangeable lenses in opposite to the Q series where this is not possible. Therefore Leica already kept video function out of the EV1 - same strategy in place starting from the M10 until now.
So yes, the EV1 is kind of crippled with lack of video and likely less high end focusing aids to avoid in-house competition with the SL series. Meaning customers who need video and best possible focus/AF will be forced to continue to use the SL series. The way the EV1 specs look like focus on a different group of users with this camera: some who enjoy EVF more than OVF due to their vision for example, others who already have Leica M cameras with traditional rangefinder and are not too thrilled about using the external EVF and prefer to have it in camera instead, others who use the EV1 for more special applications where the rangefinder is a culprit for example for close-ups. The EV1 might also attract new customers switching from other mirrorless camera brands to enjoy EVF-based camera with smaller M lenses.
I'm always impressed by how much you know about Leica marketing.
For instance you " can clearly see that some (maybe many?) SL users would jump ship to the EV1" and that is impressive
retrofocus wrote:
Yes. Even the EV1 has no AF capability, it can be regarded as in-house threat for Leica with the much more bulky SL camera series and larger lenses. Many users seem to have a smaller powerful EV-based camera instead of the larger SL camera. I can clearly see that some (maybe many?) SL users would jump ship to the EV1 to do potentially do video with smaller M lenses and good manual focus aids since the EV1 also offers exchangeable lenses in opposite to the Q series where this is not possible. Therefore Leica already kept video function out of the EV1 - same strategy in place starting from the M10 until now.
So yes, the EV1 is kind of crippled with lack of video and likely less high end focusing aids to avoid in-house competition with the SL series. Meaning customers who need video and best possible focus/AF will be forced to continue to use the SL series. The way the EV1 specs look like focus on a different group of users with this camera: some who enjoy EVF more than OVF due to their vision for example, others who already have Leica M cameras with traditional rangefinder and are not too thrilled about using the external EVF and prefer to have it in camera instead, others who use the EV1 for more special applications where the rangefinder is a culprit for example for close-ups. The EV1 might also attract new customers switching from other mirrorless camera brands to enjoy EVF-based camera with smaller M lenses. ...Show more →
I think that your points tie into the reason that I chose to go with Hasselblad vs Leica’s SL-3 on one hand and the Sony A7CR for a small travel camera. Pressure is on Leica to make the SL-4 a major upgrade. There should not be an autofocus cross-shopper considering both the SL line and the new EV line of cameras. It is true that users that regularly mount manual lenses on the SL-3 might go for a capable EV camera, but the SL needs to be more competent and better compete with other cameras in the autofocus market segment. I think that posters above provided a key to upgrading the SL line and that is faster, efficient upgrades to the Maestro line of processors.
bwcolor wrote:
but the SL needs to be more competent and better compete with other cameras in the autofocus market segment.
I remember Leica explaining it was not a good idea to compete directly with other cameras in this segment because they had a head start, more money to invest in top of the line AF, etc.
So they designed the SL line and L-Mount to offer something else.
And I would agree. For instance, I like the ergonomics but when I used a SL2 with a 150-600 to shoot wildlife, I found it less convenient that a Canon or Olympus body for instance.
But for landscape, portrait, etc, I would prefer a SL.
bwcolor wrote:
I think that your points tie into the reason that I chose to go with Hasselblad vs Leica’s SL-3 on one hand and the Sony A7CR for a small travel camera. Pressure is on Leica to make the SL-4 a major upgrade. There should not be an autofocus cross-shopper considering both the SL line and the new EV line of cameras. It is true that users that regularly mount manual lenses on the SL-3 might go for a capable EV camera, but the SL needs to be more competent and better compete with other cameras in the autofocus market segment. I think that posters above provided a key to upgrading the SL line and that is faster, efficient upgrades to the Maestro line of processors....Show more →
I see two main issues for customers with the SL line which hasn't changed since it started:
+ Price for what the customer is getting compared to other MLC offerings in the market
+ Bulk/size of the camera itself (lens size is another issue but some of it is unavoidable due to AF. Nevertheless, lens size is similar to DSLR lens size but other MLC manufacturers have the same issue)
Leica had IMO a winner if they made the SL series only slightly bigger than the M or Q series. Reminds me kind of on the Leica R-series: tried to compete at the time with upcoming SLRs on the market, failed because it was too expensive compared to alternatives and didn't have the same options as Japanese manufacturers started offering in their SLRs. And customers preferred the smaller M-series overall to this date.
retrofocus wrote:
All correct - but I still believe that Leica's first rule of engagement (so to speak) is to avoid in-house competition with the SL series regarding the EV1 camera. Therefore I doubt they will use the same level of focus technology as seen in the SL3-S for example - call it crippling if you like, but it is certainly done to distinguish the EV1 enough from any other SL series camera to avoid to lose even more customers from the SL series.
I expect that the EV1 has a focus system one or two generations behind the latest SL series....Show more →
With an M mount and manual focus only, the EV1 will only potentially cannibalize SL sales of those who want to adapt MF lenses. It will primarily be intended as an M alternative for those who want an M but want or need the help of electronic focus assist features. And in this respect I don’t believe it will benefit Leica in any way to cripple focus assist capability simply to protect some other line or model because that will be its big feature (primarily targeting M users). If that was the case, then what would be the point of even releasing an EV1? Just get some other mirrorless camera instead, since they all provide some range of MF assist.
rscheffler wrote:
With an M mount and manual focus only, the EV1 will only potentially cannibalize SL sales of those who want to adapt MF lenses. It will primarily be intended as an M alternative for those who want an M but want or need the help of electronic focus assist features. And in this respect I don’t believe it will benefit Leica in any way to cripple focus assist capability simply to protect some other line or model because that will be its big feature (primarily targeting M users). If that was the case, then what would be the point of even releasing an EV1? Just get some other mirrorless camera instead, since they all provide some range of MF assist. ...Show more →
I elaborated more on this in a later reply to another poster here. In short, I am a firm believer that whatever focus system for manual lenses Leica will implement will purposely remain behind whatever the latest SL series uses. Purely hypothetically spoken, if either the SL series wouldn't exist, or SL sales would be superior that some losses wouldn't matter, the situation would be very different regarding the EV1.
