olegkin wrote:
M lenses do not open apertures for focusing is another problem. Even if camera is able to focus with sensor only, it will run out of acceptable amount of light quickly. I learned it with CV lenses on Z8. Focus confirmation stops working at about f/5.6 in somewhat dim light, like cloudy end of day, rooms with no direct sun light, etc. Or when you need to use flash. You can still focus in "natural view/no exposure preview" mode but so far both gfx and nikon are less than impressive in those modes - grainy low resolution evf with super low refresh rate. Maybe Leica will figure it out, but if not, one will have to open and close aperture manually....Show more →
Yep, that’s a limitation. It will be tricky to focus a lens that’s stopped down to f/8-ish or beyond in low light.
fjablo wrote:
The sensor has phase detection pixels. They “see” the scene from slightly different angles, like two eyes or the optical rangefinder in an M. When the image is in focus, their views line up; when it’s out of focus, they shift apart. By measuring that shift, the camera knows both how far and in which direction focus is off (front or back focus).
This is all that is needed and almost all modern cameras have this. Different manufacturers have created different user interfaces to display that information to the user, from those „electronic rangefinders“ in SLRs, the focus confirmation box on Nikon Z cameras or Canon‘s focus guide feature.
The question is what kind of user interface will Leica come up with (so far they don’t have one, I think, even though the SL cameras could already do this).
And yes obviously still manual focus, just a user interface tool that tells you if you’re in focus, how far off and front or back focused. Same type of information that the rangefinder patch provides....Show more →
Ah, that makes perfect sense and thanks for clarifying. I was focusing too much on the lack of electronic communication from M lenses and overlooked that the camera's phase-detect pixels can still analyze focus directly from the image. So it's really just a matter of Leica implementing the right visual interface, not a hardware limitation from the lens side. Appreciate the correction.
As a Canon user, their implementation of this is really good except that they've artificially limited it, disappointingly (otherwise I would enjoy this with adapted M lenses), to only work with lenses capable of electronic communication, such as native RF and adapted EF.
olegkin wrote:
M lenses do not open apertures for focusing is another problem. Even if camera is able to focus with sensor only, it will run out of acceptable amount of light quickly. I learned it with CV lenses on Z8. Focus confirmation stops working at about f/5.6 in somewhat dim light, like cloudy end of day, rooms with no direct sun light, etc. Or when you need to use flash. You can still focus in "natural view/no exposure preview" mode but so far both gfx and nikon are less than impressive in those modes - grainy low resolution evf with super low refresh rate. Maybe Leica will figure it out, but if not, one will have to open and close aperture manually....Show more →
This is irrelevant because Peter Karbe has repeatedly stated that there is no need to stop down modern M lenses. They are design to perform optimally wide open.
Besides, Leica M is only used by photographers working hand held and wide open in low ambient light, so the problem of being stopped down in darkness will never happen.
Fred Miranda wrote:
I'm not so sure, guys. It feels like Leica might be underestimating how much pushback they'll get for releasing a true mirrorless camera without IBIS, especially at a premium price. If this were a rangefinder, most shooters would accept that trade-off since it has never been part of the design. But this isn't one. It's a modern digital body, and expectations are different now.
With an M-mount, photographers will naturally use standard and longer lenses or adapt just about anything to it. In today's mirrorless market, IBIS is expected, and leaving it out could be a serious mistake Leica isn’t anticipating.
From what's been rumored, it seems more like a variation of the Q series in both size and shape, but with an M-mount instead. The Q line, however, has mainly centered on wide-angle lenses until the recent 43mm, which is still wider than a true normal lens. Both of those lenses also feature built-in optical stabilization..
That said, maybe Leica is targeting M shooters who rely on the Visoflex most of the time, either due to eyesight limitations or simply because they prefer not to focus with the rangefinder. They're already used to shooting without IBIS and might actually appreciate a built-in Visoflex body that suits the way they already work. It will be interesting to see what happens....Show more →
43mm is the true normal lens. A 50 is a short tele, technically. 43mm is the diagonal of a 24x36mm frame. I’d kill for a 90mm though.
And the GFX RF did OK. No IBIS there either.
I profoundly agree that no IBIS is a miss. I guess we’ll need something to whinge about. It’s a Leica after all. Maybe the V2?
rscheffler wrote:
IMO for it to be an effective 'virtual' M, the EVF software-driven manual focusing experience has to be unique and exceptionally effective. Something like a virtual RF patch. This would differentiate it from any other mirrorless camera and would appeal to M users and manual focus aficionados. It is this point in which I am most interested and apprehensive about this rumored camera, because Leica has a great opportunity here to be class leading, but could also royally f it up.
Fuji can already do this with a small section of the image magnified and the rest visible. A magnified centre patch on half press would be all I’d need.
flash wrote:
43mm is the true normal lens. A 50 is a short tele, technically. 43mm is the diagonal of a 24x36mm frame. I’d kill for a 90mm though.
And the GFX RF did OK. No IBIS there either.
I profoundly agree that no IBIS is a miss. I guess we’ll need something to whinge about. It’s a Leica after all. Maybe the V2?
Gordon
Sure, Gordon, I was just referring to a normal lens in the classic sense, as the 50mm has always been considered since the film days. The main point is that both Q series lenses are stabilized, regardless of their focal length.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Ah, that makes perfect sense and thanks for clarifying. I was focusing too much on the lack of electronic communication from M lenses and overlooked that the camera's phase-detect pixels can still analyze focus directly from the image. So it's really just a matter of Leica implementing the right visual interface, not a hardware limitation from the lens side. Appreciate the correction.
The sensor would have to be a new 60mp variant to support phase detect. The M11 sensor doesn't have phase detect obviously. The SL3 sensor does, but it would need to have its cover glass replaced with the thinner one from the M11.
highdesertmesa wrote:
The sensor would have to be a new 60mp variant to support phase detect. The M11 sensor doesn't have phase detect obviously. The SL3 sensor does, but it would need to have its cover glass replaced with the thinner one from the M11.
Isn't it the case that the SL3 lacks the offset micro lenses as well? Feels like this is something Leica wouldn't compromise on for an "M" camera.
Anyway, have not followed this discussion but I think it will be interesting to see how Leica handles "das Wesentliche" and keeping the EVF nice and clean.
highdesertmesa wrote:
The sensor would have to be a new 60mp variant to support phase detect. The M11 sensor doesn't have phase detect obviously. The SL3 sensor does, but it would need to have its cover glass replaced with the thinner one from the M11.
I’m not too sure that the M11 doesn’t have the PD pixels. They’re certainly not used but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it isn’t physically the exact same sensor.
It seems more economical to me to source the same sensor from Sony for those various models and just change what sits on top. TBH not even sure you can get this sensor without the PD pixels..
fjablo wrote:
I’m not too sure that the M11 doesn’t have the PD pixels. They’re certainly not used but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it isn’t physically the exact same sensor.
It seems more economical to me to source the same sensor from Sony for those various models and just change what sits on top. TBH not even sure you can get this sensor without the PD pixels..
The M11 sensor doesn't have them. Even if you couldn't see the difference between it and any sensor that has them under a scope when cleaning, by now, an M shooter would've seen some sign of the reflections, and all the Leica related forums would be ablaze with talk about the unnecessary PD sensors in their dedicated manual cameras.
The sensor on the M11 seems to have different characteristics from the Q3/SL3 sensor so most likely doesn't have PDAF.
That said, if Leica implements even basic contrast AF for focus confirmation, that would be a huge win. However, judging by the hardware specs in the rumors, if that's true, this is just the M11 re-packaged without the EVF. Good way to test demand on whether to continue to invest in the line in the future or not - I think they probably had similar thinking with the D-Lux 8 judging by what they did there.
I don't think Leica has ever exceeded expectations on hardware so I'd be really surprised if it's more than a repackaged M11.
I think this rumor is based on a misunderstanding, likely referring to the M11. It makes more sense that Leica would use the same sensor as the Q3, which already has all the features relevant to what we're discussing. Essentially, it would be a Q3 variant without a built-in lens, but with the ability to accept any M-mount lens. Even the EVF specs are the same. It would make sense for it to cost less than the latest Q3, but apparently, that's not happening.
Fred Miranda wrote:
I think this rumor is based on a misunderstanding, likely referring to the M11. It makes more sense that Leica would use the same sensor as the Q3, which already has all the features relevant to what we're discussing. Essentially, it would be a Q3 variant without a built-in lens, but with the ability to accept any M-mount lens. Even the EVF specs are the same. It would make sense for it to cost less than the latest Q3, but apparently, that's not happening.
All the specs I've seen says Maestro III processor which means M11. The reference to "Q3 like" might just be the textured exterior (e.g. D-Lux 8) vs any real chassis changes.
I think the question comes to what's easier for them:
1. Take the Q3 and add a M-mount and support 6-bit coding, or
2. Take the M11 and integrate an EVF in.
My take is probably no. 2 since there's already software to support a EVF in the M11.
However, we'll see - if it's actually a Q3 variant...I might buy too but I'm really skeptical based on their past track record.
tzhang4284 wrote:
All the specs I've seen says Maestro III processor which means M11. The reference to "Q3 like" might just be the textured exterior (e.g. D-Lux 8) vs any real chassis changes.
I think the question comes to what's easier for them:
1. Take the Q3 and add a M-mount and support 6-bit coding, or
2. Take the M11 and integrate an EVF in.
My take is probably no. 2 since there's already software to support a EVF in the M11.
However, we'll see - if it's actually a Q3 variant...I might buy too but I'm really skeptical based on their past track record.
+1. Manufacturers try to keep as much as possible from existing manufacturing lines - therefore option #2 is best. Likely this is what will come down to. I suggested months ago that it will be either of these two options but leaning towards #2.
I just received my invite to an event on the 23rd. No photo or video allowed. Phones have to be checked at the door. First time I’ve had that from a Leica event.
tzhang4284 wrote:
I don't think Leica has ever exceeded expectations on hardware so I'd be really surprised if it's more than a repackaged M11.
I can think of…
* First ff mirrorless camera (and only) with an actual IP rating.
* Best in class build quality.
* Best in class IBIS.
* First mirrorless camera with a 4MP EVF.
* Best in class joystick.
* SL APO Summicrons.
* Only ff monochrom cameras.
* Best in class IQ (SL3).
* Best in class menus and app integration.
People get too hung up on AF and then assume that Leica doesn’t lead anywhere else.
* First ff mirrorless camera (and only) with an actual IP rating.
* Best in class build quality.
* Best in class IBIS.
* First mirrorless camera with a 4MP EVF.
* Best in class joystick.
* SL APO Summicrons.
* Only ff monochrom cameras.
* Best in class IQ (SL3).
* Best in class menus and app integration.
People get too hung up on AF and then assume that Leica doesn’t lead anywhere else.
Gordon
This is irrelevant to their product development cycle, which is what we were talking about . All the rumors point this to being a mid cycle refresh of the m11 - the maestro iii processor gives it away.
People get too hung up on defending their brand is good without reading the actual substance of the conversation.
* First ff mirrorless camera (and only) with an actual IP rating.
* Best in class build quality.
* Best in class IBIS.
* First mirrorless camera with a 4MP EVF.
* Best in class joystick.
* SL APO Summicrons.
* Only ff monochrom cameras.
* Best in class IQ (SL3).
* Best in class menus and app integration.
People get too hung up on AF and then assume that Leica doesn’t lead anywhere else.
Gordon
Agreed, the SL3 SL3-S are the two best cameras Leica makes as far as workflow, build, and image quality Leica makes. Certainly, the equal of or the best of any FF camera in the market today in the uses cases it is designed for. The APO-SL lenses are unmatched in the industry for pure optical performance. Leica does do some things better than the rest.
Still, somehow the M is my favorite choice. Primarily because of lense selection and form factor.
I do wish Leica could contribute to getting more industry support from 3rd parties. I am particularly wanting better support for lighting systems.
Camera speed and AF are not the only specs that matter to me. That is not Leica's focus and I use Sony for that.
