fjablo wrote:
He's talking about the depth of the camera which is certainly one issue. But all those recent IBIS units with 6-8 stops of compensation also shift the sensor around significantly to achieve that, so I'm still not convinced that there wouldn't be compatibility issues with the lenses in many cases. Of course they might implement a less effective IBIS unit (like 2-3 stops maybe?) but not sure if those who demand IBIS right now would be happy with that either..
I don't know, but I think current IBIS technology applied in digital cameras is a combination of both the physical IBIS mech and software. Perhaps, in an extreme installation as the M11 form factor might present, perhaps software could be used to make up some of the differences of a more robust/capable IBIS mechanism that might require more space.
With the newer developments of the rumors, especially the price point, I am thinking that I am more likely to be eventually opting for an SL camera body, and an M Adapter L. The APO Summicron-SL 35mm ASPH lens is part of that equation. (That one lens, alone, has been tempting me to want to try the SL system, with adapting my M lenses being a “value added” factor.)
A smaller form factor than an SL body would be nice to have, but, probably not worth multiple thousands more USD. (My wife and I are retired local government employees.) I am accustomed to using “pro-sized” DSLRs, so, an SL body is “not really all that large.”
RexGig0 wrote:
With the newer developments of the rumors, especially the price point, I am thinking that I am more likely to be eventually opting for an SL camera body, and an M Adapter L. The APO Summicron-SL 35mm ASPH lens is part of that equation. (That one lens, alone, has been tempting me to want to try the SL system, with adapting my M lenses being a “value added” factor.)
A smaller form factor than an SL body would be nice to have, but, probably not worth multiple thousands more USD. (My wife and I are retired local government employees.) I am accustomed to using “pro-sized” DSLRs, so, an SL body is “not really all that large.”...Show more →
I think you will like the SL3 APO_SL combo. Exceptional IQ and wonderful work flow. If you don't need stacked sensor type AF and speed, that combo likely produces the best results on the FF market. Used prices make it a reasonable purchase option value wise.
LBJ2 wrote:
I don't know, but I think current IBIS technology applied in digital cameras is a combination of both the physical IBIS mech and software. Perhaps, in an extreme installation as the M11 form factor might present, perhaps maybe could be used to make up some of the differences of a more robust/capable IBIS mechanism that might require more space.
Apparently the IBIS unit in the Pentax K1 shifts the sensor by up to +/-1.5mm offering 5 stops of stabilization. Early Sony A7‘s apparently closer to +/-1mm and latest cameras like the Nikon Zf more like +/-2mm with 7-8 stops stabilization. I think in a Leica M, you’d be closer to the earlier Sonys with maybe up to 4 stops or so.
fjablo wrote:
Regarding lack of IBIS in the M EV1: wondering how much of a challenge it is to build IBIS for M mount. It is quite a narrow mount and with many lenses the light already hits the sensor at steep angles.. we‘ve seen some vignetting based on lens rear baffle design on the Nikon Zf and that’s with the massive Z mount. I imagine there would be a lot of compatibility issues with M mount lenses, where IBIS works well for some, but hard-vignettes with others.
I appreciate where you're coming from about mount diameter. It likely is a factor combined with usable lens image circle/covering power. But I think the bigger challenge is the fact that the M mount flange distance is comparatively long for a mirrorless camera. All the mainstream systems are in the 20mm range while IIRC the M mount is ~28mm. That additional 8-10mm is directly consequential for the thickness of the body. IBIS would have to be added to the thickness of the camera behind the sensor surface and would therefore make the camera probably ~5mm thicker than without. Given how much M users complain about 'fat' cameras like the M240, adding more body thickness would be a no-go. The only other solution, and easier for an EVF-only camera, is to extend the mount 5-10mm from the front of the body to basically move the sensor forward relative to all other internal components. The downside is you'd have a relatively unsightly lens mount 'tube' permanently protruding from the front of the camera, unless Leica designed the body to mask this, or engineered a way to make it collapsible but also reliably maintain precise mount to sensor surface alignment with repeated use.
One option to mask the additional thickness is to implement a deeper, more aggressive grip 'groove' cutout on the front of the camera, similar in concept to what has already been done for the thumb grip at the back of Q bodies. So while the body would be relatively thick, it wouldn't necessarily feel that way. Body thickness could also taper from thickest around the mount area to thinnest at the edges.
LBJ2 wrote:
There was a statement some time ago from Leica something along the lines of... if Leica were able to remove the mechanical shutter in the current M camera form factor there could be room for an IBIS mechanism.
After the hybrid M EV1 camera is released, I think a mechanical shutterless M camera with IBIS could be the next big change/update coming to perhaps to one of the next-gen M12 camera models.
Leica could remove the mechanical shutter from this M-EVF camera if they weren't so stubbornly attached to the awfully slow Sony 60MP sensor. Yes, I will harp on this again without knowing all the behind the scenes details, that Leica should instead use Sony's 50MP stacked sensor. Looks like another missed opportunity! I wonder if it will even have EFCS?
Given the high MP count of the camera, implementation of electronic stabilization that crops into the sensor area somewhat, could also be an option. I don't know what the image quality implications of this would be, though there would likely be image interpolation to provide users with consistent final image dimensions regardless of the degree of stabilization required from image to image.
As far as I'm aware Sony hasn't licenced the flagship sensors (a1, A9iii) to anybody. And as good as it is, from a pure IQ perspective the 61MP sensor does offer more. The S1Rii is there if you want something more performance orientated.
flash wrote:
As far as I'm aware Sony hasn't licenced the flagship sensors (a1, A9iii) to anybody. And as good as it is, from a pure IQ perspective the 61MP sensor does offer more. The S1Rii is there if you want something more performance orientated.
Gordon
At this point Sony is holding the global shutter camera sensor for its own exclusive use. Now that it is older, Sony has made the A1 stacked sensor technology available to a number of brands. Although only allowing slightly smaller and only 20fps RAW. Notably Nikon. This is consistant with Sony's stated approach to sharing advanced sensor technology.
Even Sony uses the relatively slow 60mpx sensor for its high resolution high DR cameras. Since this is Leicas orientation I do not expect to see a stacked sensor in an M camera in the near future. Leica will have mechanical shutter camera for a long time going forward.
rscheffler wrote:
I appreciate where you're coming from about mount diameter. It likely is a factor combined with usable lens image circle/covering power. But I think the bigger challenge is the fact that the M mount flange distance is comparatively long for a mirrorless camera. All the mainstream systems are in the 20mm range while IIRC the M mount is ~28mm. That additional 8-10mm is directly consequential for the thickness of the body. IBIS would have to be added to the thickness of the camera behind the sensor surface and would therefore make the camera probably ~5mm thicker than without. Given how much M users complain about 'fat' cameras like the M240, adding more body thickness would be a no-go. The only other solution, and easier for an EVF-only camera, is to extend the mount 5-10mm from the front of the body to basically move the sensor forward relative to all other internal components. The downside is you'd have a relatively unsightly lens mount 'tube' permanently protruding from the front of the camera, unless Leica designed the body to mask this, or engineered a way to make it collapsible but also reliably maintain precise mount to sensor surface alignment with repeated use.
One option to mask the additional thickness is to implement a deeper, more aggressive grip 'groove' cutout on the front of the camera, similar in concept to what has already been done for the thumb grip at the back of Q bodies. So while the body would be relatively thick, it wouldn't necessarily feel that way. Body thickness could also taper from thickest around the mount area to thinnest at the edges.
Leica could remove the mechanical shutter from this M-EVF camera if they weren't so stubbornly attached to the awfully slow Sony 60MP sensor. Yes, I will harp on this again without knowing all the behind the scenes details, that Leica should instead use Sony's 50MP stacked sensor. Looks like another missed opportunity! I wonder if it will even have EFCS?
Given the high MP count of the camera, implementation of electronic stabilization that crops into the sensor area somewhat, could also be an option. I don't know what the image quality implications of this would be, though there would likely be image interpolation to provide users with consistent final image dimensions regardless of the degree of stabilization required from image to image. ...Show more →
I think Leica has had great success with this 60MP sensor since 2022.
Having owned the M11 since one of the first batches released...some days I still can't believe I'm shooting a Leica digital rangefinder with 60MPs full frame! I've been very happy with the 60MP sensor in the M11. Very happy. In fact, my M11 Silver is probably the digital rangefinder I will hang on to for the foreseeable future or more. With a couple of fast/Summilux M lenses, I'm just fine without IBIS and I really enjoy using the rangefinder patch even at 0,95. I've been able to get away with plenty at up to 1/4000 for daytime, filter free @ 0,95 and I can get away with more than I had originally anticipated with this "slow" sensor scan all the way up to 1/16,000 electronic for 0,95 if I'm mindful. But there's always a filter in my bag just in case.
I have shot with Sony's 50MP stacked sensor extensively. I am very familiar with what this high performance sensor can do. If Leica decides to put such a high performance sensor in a digital rangefinder, that could be interesting particularly for us Noctilux aficionados. Let's see what Leica brings with their new 2026/2027 M, Q, SL, S product lines. I wouldn't be surprised if some sort of stacked sensor is on the menu.
1bwana1 wrote:
At this point Sony is holding the global shutter camera sensor for its own exclusive use. Now that it is older, Sony has made the A1 stacked sensor technology available to a number of brands. Although only allowing slightly smaller and only 20fps RAW. Notably Nikon. This is consistant with Sony's stated approach to sharing advanced sensor technology.
Even Sony uses the relatively slow 60mpx sensor for its high resolution high DR cameras. Since this is Leicas orientation I do not expect to see a stacked sensor in an M camera in the near future. Leica will have mechanical shutter camera for a long time going forward....Show more →
As far as I'm aware the sensor in the Nikon cameras is not the same as the A1 sensor. The z8/9 sensor is a custom design for Nikon manufactured by Sony Semiconductor. The resolution and readout speeds are different from the A1 sensor. I don't believe the A1 sensor is in use in any other body, currently.
retrofocus wrote:
Nicely worded but it means: the Leica Q3 sales were excellent and the SL system finding usage but to a much lesser amount.
I agree, and the fact (if the rumor turns out to be true) that Leica decided to produce an ICL Q in M-mount and not in L-mount does not exactly bode well for the future of the SL either in my opinion.
About the Leica M EV1, it will sell, but at $10K and without IBIS I would probably not expect it to be a bestseller.
flash wrote:
As far as I'm aware the sensor in the Nikon cameras is not the same as the A1 sensor. The z8/9 sensor is a custom design for Nikon manufactured by Sony Semiconductor. The resolution and readout speeds are different from the A1 sensor. I don't believe the A1 sensor is in use in any other body, currently.
Gordon
I didn't say it was the exact same sensor. I said it was based on Sony’s A1 stacked sensor technology. I also pointed out that it is a slightly lower resolution so scans faster yet is limited to 20fps. Sony has made stacked sensor technology available to other brands but not at a level to match Sony's benchmarks. Sony would be happy to make this available to Leica as well. After all there are now around 30 different cameras from various brands based on Sony’s stacked sensor te hnology. But Leica is probably not interested in pursuing it for the M cameras. Therefore it is my belief that we won't see an M camera without mechanical shutter anytime soon.
If we do see a stacked sensor in an Leica camera it will likely be in an SL2 body first.
In my case, whenever I want EVF or a smaller body, I shoot with the Sony A7CR that has been Kolari-modded to work optimally with my M lenses, and I depend heavily on its 7-stop stabilization.
Fred,
Precisely! If this Leica came out a few years ago, I'd be all over it. I was waiting patiently for them to do something like this and I'd have forgone IBIS. But,I've since moved on to the sony which is exellent for me. It's a case of too little too late for me.
Others may disagree and that's fine.
Joe D
In my case, whenever I want EVF or a smaller body, I shoot with the Sony A7CR that has been Kolari-modded to work optimally with my M lenses, and I depend heavily on its 7-stop stabilization.
How do you manual focus with that small viewfinder? Do you always need to use magnification? If so, how does that work for speed of use?
SlowDriver wrote:
I agree, and the fact (if the rumor turns out to be true) that Leica decided to produce an ICL Q in M-mount and not in L-mount does not exactly bode well for the future of the SL either in my opinion.
About the Leica M EV1, it will sell, but at $10K and without IBIS I would probably not expect it to be a bestseller.
Still crossing my fingers that the M11 EV1 comes with an M-mount - I haven't seen any confirmation about it from rumored specs, that's why I didn't reply with the same as you just said. I doubt it comes with L-mount because then it would be in-house competition with the SL series - even if the M11 EV1 doesn't provide AF capabilities, an L-mount will still allow L-lenses to be mounted and to manually focus.
LBJ2 wrote:
I think Leica has had great success with this 60MP sensor since 2022.
Having owned the M11 since one of the first batches released...some days I still can't believe I'm shooting a Leica digital rangefinder with 60MPs full frame! I've been very happy with the 60MP sensor in the M11. Very happy. In fact, my M11 Silver is probably the digital rangefinder I will hang on to for the foreseeable future or more. With a couple of fast/Summilux M lenses, I'm just fine without IBIS and I really enjoy using the rangefinder patch even at 0,95. I've been able to get away with plenty at up to 1/4000 for daytime, filter free @ 0,95 and I can get away with more than I had originally anticipated with this "slow" sensor scan all the way up to 1/16,000 electronic for 0,95 if I'm mindful. But there's always a filter in my bag just in case.
I have shot with Sony's 50MP stacked sensor extensively. I am very familiar with what this high performance sensor can do. If Leica decides to put such a high performance sensor in a digital rangefinder, that could be interesting particularly for us Noctilux aficionados. Let's see what Leica brings with their new 2026/2027 M, Q, SL, S product lines. I wouldn't be surprised if some sort of stacked sensor is on the menu. ...Show more →
The Sony 60MP sensor certainly delivers the goods in respect to resolution and dynamic range. I think half of my 'beef' with Leica's implementation of the M11 would be resolved if they'd at minimum add EFCS to also bypass the current mechanical shutter 'clap-trap' implementation for off-the-sensor metering. But as I've posted previously, the purest manifestation of Leica M would include it being an entirely silent camera. While that's possible in e-shutter with the 60MP sensor, it's hamstrung by that sensor's abysmal readout speed. If Leica can't convince Sony to supply their 50MP stacked sensor for use in an M camera that would absolutely not compete with Sony's a1 series, then IMO Leica can look elsewhere. I'd be perfectly fine with Canon's 45MP stacked sensor in an M camera, even with it being way noisier at lower ISOs. But of course Canon will never share it with another brand...
SlowDriver wrote:
I agree, and the fact (if the rumor turns out to be true) that Leica decided to produce an ICL Q in M-mount and not in L-mount does not exactly bode well for the future of the SL either in my opinion.
About the Leica M EV1, it will sell, but at $10K and without IBIS I would probably not expect it to be a bestseller.
I would expect the Leica M EV1 to be a very popular camera. Leica users don't chase specs like IBIS. If they did they would never buy an M. And Leica users are not that price sensitive either, esp those buying the M series.
Take the popular Q styling and pair it with the M lenses and you have a winner. I would expect this to be sold out for months.
1bwana1 wrote:
I didn't say it was the exact same sensor. I said it was based on Sony’s A1 stacked sensor technology. I also pointed out that it is a slightly lower resolution so scans faster yet is limited to 20fps. Sony has made stacked sensor technology available to other brands but not at a level to match Sony's benchmarks. Sony would be happy to make this available to Leica as well. After all there are now around 30 different cameras from various brands based on Sony’s stacked sensor te hnology. But Leica is probably not interested in pursuing it for the M cameras. Therefore it is my belief that we won't see an M camera without mechanical shutter anytime soon.
If we do see a stacked sensor in an Leica camera it will likely be in an SL2 body first....Show more →
30? Really?
Nikon's Z8/Z9 sensors are proprietary and exclusive. Nikon designed it and Sony Semiconductor manufactures it. The Z6/S1ii sensor is a SC design but it's low resolution. Canon make their own sensors. Are there any high resolution stacked sensors that aren't proprietary?
Both the Z9 and A1 have the same FPS. 20 uncompressed and 30 compressed Nikon's is lossy..
