p.2 #1 · Light Lens Lab 50mm f/1.5 S21 and APO 35mm f/2 ASPH
aaronquo wrote:
I don't think it's wrong because Leica isn't currently producing the lens anymore. Even if Leica were still producing the lens designs, I still don't think it's wrong. Things get copied all the time. It's the nature of business and art. Knock offs are fine as long as they aren't trying to impersonate the original.
for those who think copying the old Leica design by virtue of no patent laws are violated...well, i guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this.
"Knock offs are fine as long as they aren't trying to impersonate the original."
...except LLL _is_ trying to impersonate the original. look at the 28 9-element, the Elcan, the Rigid 50, and so on. they deliberately copied even the barrel design. from a distance, you will mistake them for the original. and they are well aware of what they're doing because they don't even mention Leica in any of the product catalog in their website.
and finally what baffles me is the very price they command for them...it's not their design...it's Leica's. but hey people are paying for them...so good for them, i guess.
p.2 #2 · Light Lens Lab 50mm f/1.5 S21 and APO 35mm f/2 ASPH
I’m really curious to see how the new Light Lens Lab 35mm f/2 APO-ASPH performs. So far, there's the Leica 35/2 APO and the Voigtlander 35/2 APO. I’ve tested and reviewed the Voigtlander, and while it’s absolutely outstanding, its size is a drawback. I never had the chance to test the Leica, but from what I can tell, the Light Lens Lab version closely matches its size and the aesthetics of its barrel and hood.
I could be wrong, but I don't expect it to be a direct replica of the current Leica 35/2 APO. Instead, it looks like a tweaked optical design. Whether it ends up being similar with some alterations or completely different remains to be seen. I'll hold off on any conclusions until I can test it myself..
p.2 #3 · Light Lens Lab 50mm f/1.5 S21 and APO 35mm f/2 ASPH
dalegaspi wrote:
...except LLL _is_ trying to impersonate the original.
I think the word he was looking for might be “counterfeit.” LLL has riddled their lenses with design features to purposely make them different from the originals and impossible to mistake: different engraving font, different lens element diameters, different markings, different materials, etc. That’s what you’d call integrity and respect.
p.2 #4 · Light Lens Lab 50mm f/1.5 S21 and APO 35mm f/2 ASPH
dalegaspi wrote:
for those who think copying the old Leica design by virtue of no patent laws are violated...well, i guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this.
"Knock offs are fine as long as they aren't trying to impersonate the original."
...except LLL _is_ trying to impersonate the original. look at the 28 9-element, the Elcan, the Rigid 50, and so on. they deliberately copied even the barrel design. from a distance, you will mistake them for the original. and they are well aware of what they're doing because they don't even mention Leica in any of the product catalog in their website.
and finally what baffles me is the very price they command for them...it's not their design...it's Leica's. but hey people are paying for them...so good for them, i guess. ...Show more →
I have signaled the same thing a couple of months back here and everybody was all over me. People will always find ways to justify whatever floats their boat, so I found no reason to debate more. I have even tried to delete my posts, but they are still there as "previous version".
And copying a current lens/design is just the next, logical step for LLL (or whoever). After all, they'll soon become an "established lens manufacturer" (despite not having produced even one original lens designed by themselves) and their prices will continue to raise for this very good reason
p.2 #5 · Light Lens Lab 50mm f/1.5 S21 and APO 35mm f/2 ASPH
raizans wrote:
I think the word he was looking for might be “counterfeit.” LLL has riddled their lenses with design features to purposely make them different from the originals and impossible to mistake: different engraving font, different lens element diameters, different markings, different materials, etc. That’s what you’d call integrity and respect.
i agree...it's not technically counterfeit...but they might as well be...as they definitely try to copy as much as they could but put their own name on them. but the basic shape and forms of their lenses are so similar to the Leica designs they "borrowed" from that it's enough to make you do a double take on it. FFS just look at their Rigid 50 here and the Leica Rigid that it copied from 50 here...it's unmistakable carbon copy other than the LLL marking on the front.
but again, the 35 APO ..in my mind is a defining moment for them.. if it's an original design, would not be as hard on them...otherwise, my overall negative perception on them as a brand remains.
p.2 #6 · Light Lens Lab 50mm f/1.5 S21 and APO 35mm f/2 ASPH
The exterior styling on their 35mm apo prototype looks like it’s a copy of the Leica version. Maybe they’ll tweak the optical design a bit but it’s still very much a knock off.
That said it’ll be interesting to see how close they can get to the Leicas version performance. The design is probably easy to copy due to reverse engineering (probably fair game since a lot of companies do this for competitive intel) and software to tweak optical design. The special sauce is in glass quality and assembly tolerances to see how close they can get.
p.2 #7 · Light Lens Lab 50mm f/1.5 S21 and APO 35mm f/2 ASPH
dalegaspi wrote:
i agree...it's not technically counterfeit...but they might as well be...as they definitely try to copy as much as they could but put their own name on them. but the basic shape and forms of their lenses are so similar to the Leica designs they "borrowed" from that it's enough to make you do a double take on it. FFS just look at their Rigid 50 here and the Leica Rigid that it copied from 50 here...it's unmistakable carbon copy other than the LLL marking on the front.
but again, the 35 APO ..in my mind is a defining moment for them.. if it's an original design, would not be as hard on them...otherwise, my overall negative perception on them as a brand remains.
tzhang4284 wrote:
The exterior styling on their 35mm apo prototype looks like it’s a copy of the Leica version. Maybe they’ll tweak the optical design a bit but it’s still very much a knock off.
That said it’ll be interesting to see how close they can get to the Leicas version performance. The design is probably easy to copy due to reverse engineering (probably fair game since a lot of companies do this for competitive intel) and software to tweak optical design. The special sauce is in glass quality and assembly tolerances to see how close they can get.
I agree with both of you-
To me it looks like a carbon copy of the Leica 35 APO- I don't care what they do optically. I don't have issue with them re-creating old lenses etc-
Copying a current one that is only 8 years old is starting to get to the point of- OK LLL, do you not have an original thought? Do you really need to copy current lenses to the T just to make a dollar?
Surely there is another vintage lens they can copy or dare I say, have an original lens idea.
p.2 #8 · Light Lens Lab 50mm f/1.5 S21 and APO 35mm f/2 ASPH
In that regard, I feel the Speed Panchro II was their most interesting project and even as now, although maybe not my favorite lens from their line-up, if I had to keep one that I regard as the most unique and treasured, it would be that one.
I wouldn’t mind them continue to reimagine and adapt in that way unique and purposed design and come up with some crazy projects like this one was with the knowledge they acquired along the way.
p.2 #9 · Light Lens Lab 50mm f/1.5 S21 and APO 35mm f/2 ASPH
RustyRus wrote:
Copying a current one that is only 8 years old is starting to get to the point of- OK LLL, do you not have an original thought? Do you really need to copy current lenses to the T just to make a dollar?
Surely there is another vintage lens they can copy or dare I say, have an original lens idea.
RIGHT?! especially if Voigtlander can do it with their APO Lanthar line...at the expense of slightly larger size...but performing awesomely and looking very premium...AND WAAAaayy cheaper?
so yeah, it's already a bit annoying that LLL is copying the external design of the 35 APO...in my mind it should be a complete original LENS (internal) design and not "tweak" an existing Leica copy just to avoid patent infringement.
imagine if it's not an original design _and_ charge more than what Voigtlander offers? that would be.. something.
p.2 #10 · Light Lens Lab 50mm f/1.5 S21 and APO 35mm f/2 ASPH
If you’re hung up about the style of the barrel design, that’s pretty understandable. On the other hand, style for utilitarian products is very hard to get IPR. You will note that the most “expressive” aspect of the Leica barrel design, the slanted tips of the focusing tab, is not present on the LLL, which has straight tips. Another sign of conscientiousness. Hoods might also be construed as expressive, but that’s never held much weight since they’re pretty generic across manufacturers. Third party lens hoods like Squarehood, Haoge, and Tahusa are all kosher.
p.2 #11 · Light Lens Lab 50mm f/1.5 S21 and APO 35mm f/2 ASPH
dalegaspi wrote:
i agree...it's not technically counterfeit...but they might as well be...as they definitely try to copy as much as they could but put their own name on them. but the basic shape and forms of their lenses are so similar to the Leica designs they "borrowed" from that it's enough to make you do a double take on it. FFS just look at their Rigid 50 here and the Leica Rigid that it copied from 50 here...it's unmistakable carbon copy other than the LLL marking on the front.
but again, the 35 APO ..in my mind is a defining moment for them.. if it's an original design, would not be as hard on them...otherwise, my overall negative perception on them as a brand remains....Show more →
If you look at the images from my review of the LLL 50/2 Rigid, you'll notice several differences despite the overall similarity of the lens barrel. The font is different, and the exit pupil diameter isn't the same, even though the rendering is nearly identical. It's not a one-to-one copy...Light Lens Lab made changes, even on this discontinued lens. Mechanically, the aperture now clicks in 1/2 stops, and the lens focuses closer at 0.7m. The same applies to their LLL 28/2.8 9-Element and 50/1.2 lenses.
I don't see what all the outrage is about. If any laws had been broken, Leica would have likely sued the company by now. Some posts speculate that LLL copied the current production Leica 35mm f/2 APO, but no official information has been released. Without more details on the optical design, any claims about it being a copy are pure speculation.
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In fact, Light Lens Lab has stated that this is a "NEW" design, as described in their release:
"This lens adopts an entirely new design aimed at achieving performance equal to or greater than Leica-style apochromatic M [2/35mm ASPH.].
By using the highest-grade ultra-low dispersion glass and multiple aspherical elements, it minimizes aberrations to the extreme and enhances contrast reproduction. Additionally, it features a floating focus mechanism, reducing the minimum focusing distance to 0.3m while maintaining exceptional resolution across all distances.
This new-generation high-performance lens achieves superior imaging quality while maintaining a compact size."
p.2 #12 · Light Lens Lab 50mm f/1.5 S21 and APO 35mm f/2 ASPH
with all due respect, Fred...but you can literally insert the The Office "it's the same picture" meme for the 50 Rigid design . but hey yea sure defining "similarity" can be subjective...i still think they borrowed too much, and you and others can argue otherwise...and that's ok.
and yes for the upcoming 35 APO as a copy is purely speculative...and given their history it's not an unfair speculation. BUT since they outright mentioned it's an entirely new design...that's great. it's a good sign they're probably going to evolve past copying other companies' designs. let's see what they can deliver.
p.2 #13 · Light Lens Lab 50mm f/1.5 S21 and APO 35mm f/2 ASPH
dalegaspi wrote:
with all due respect, Fred...but you can literally insert the The Office "it's the same picture" meme for the 50 Rigid design . but hey yea sure defining "similarity" can be subjective...i still think they borrowed too much, and you and others can argue otherwise...and that's ok.
and yes for the upcoming 35 APO as a copy is purely speculative...and given their history it's not an unfair speculation. BUT since they outright mentioned it's an entirely new design...that's great. it's a good sign they're probably going to evolve past copying other companies' designs. let's see what they can deliver.
I get where you are coming from, but my point about these lenses not being exact copies is based on the fact that patent laws exist and companies have to follow them. Light Lens Lab is clearly careful when producing their "replica" versions. If they were violating patents, they would not still be in business. Borrowing design elements from historical lenses is one thing, but outright infringement is another, and I doubt they would take that risk.
As for the upcoming 35 APO, I agree that speculation is fair given their past work, but since they have explicitly stated it is a new design, that suggests they are moving in their own direction. Let us see what they actually deliver.
p.2 #14 · Light Lens Lab 50mm f/1.5 S21 and APO 35mm f/2 ASPH
If you read their press release closely, it's a "new" design meant to achieve identical or better performance to the Leica 35mm APO-M - they make it clear that's what they're replicating. The specs they shared are also identical to the Leica version such as the 0.3m minimum focusing distance.
"This lens adopts an entirely new design aimed at achieving performance equal to or greater than Leica-style apochromatic M [2/35mm ASPH.].
Not sure what's new when they're targeting the same performance with the same exterior style of lens.
p.2 #15 · Light Lens Lab 50mm f/1.5 S21 and APO 35mm f/2 ASPH
dalegaspi wrote:
imagine if it's not an original design _and_ charge more than what Voigtlander offers? that would be.. something.
If its performance is on-par with the Leica (especially character/rendering), it will be superior to the Voigtlander and thus justify a higher price. But of course it will still be multiples cheaper than the original Leica.
In such a case LLL will be on a very fine line separating originality from blatant copying.
Regarding their clones of older lenses: patents exist to provide the originator of an idea a *limited* period of exclusivity. The thinking being that perpetual exclusivity will stifle innovation and competition. The LLL clones serve a market demand for specific lenses that in their original form are often rare and have become collectibles priced well out of reach of 'regular' photographers who simply just want one to use.
In this respect I feel it's fair game. The original has been long out of production (often 50+ years) and this is generating economic activity/competition that adds value. It's not undercutting a manufacturer like how blatant direct copying of currently available OEM products does. In the photography market, a prime example of this would be Yongnuo and their clones of various Canon products, such as flash units and lenses. And sadly those Yongnuo products have been enthusiastically received precisely because they significantly undercut the 'overpriced' OEM products, which directly impacted the OEM.
I can't draw a parallel with LLL's clones, in respect to how these lenses have damaged Leica's business. Perhaps an exception might be the 50/1.2 Noctilux that Leica also re-released, which maybe ironically was Leica's attempt to undercut LLL's 50/1.2 that was well publicized in advance.
p.2 #17 · Light Lens Lab 50mm f/1.5 S21 and APO 35mm f/2 ASPH
raizans wrote:
A new optical formula, perhaps better performance, and a different focusing tab design?
The focus tab is nearly identical to the one on the Leica one - it’s barely different. As for the optical formula, read their wording again, it’s designed to achieve the same performance as the Leica version. The “or better” is a weird hedge on their part that is vague - maybe someone thought to put it in to try to avoid legal issues - they have not published anything on the optical formula - probably a test to see what they can get away with too.
p.2 #18 · Light Lens Lab 50mm f/1.5 S21 and APO 35mm f/2 ASPH
The tab is different enough to not look “Leicaesque.” The slanted tips are distinctively Leica, so LLL respectfully went with straight tips. Get the difference?
The phrase “same performance or better” is fairly straightforward: they’re ambitiously trying to achieve better performance.
p.2 #19 · Light Lens Lab 50mm f/1.5 S21 and APO 35mm f/2 ASPH
The Leica 35mm apo lens is the most phenomenal lens I ever tried. When I tried it on a M11-p for portrait, I could literally count pores on the face! I have not tried the Voigtlander 35mm apo yet. I have my doubt on LLL's performance. Of course, I will be happy to buy one if it does perform anywhere near the Leica counterpart.
p.2 #20 · Light Lens Lab 50mm f/1.5 S21 and APO 35mm f/2 ASPH
raizans wrote:
The tab is different enough to not look “Leicaesque.” The slanted tips are distinctively Leica, so LLL respectfully went with straight tips. Get the difference?
The phrase “same performance or better” is fairly straightforward: they’re ambitiously trying to achieve better performance.
The focus tab is a minor detail to the overall design - it hardly makes the case its original. It reminds me more of those knock off handbags where the print or some aspect is slightly off so it’s not copy exact. As for optical performance, we’ll see if they dare to release an optical block diagram for the lens.
. but hey yea sure defining "similarity" can be subjective...i still think they borrowed too much, and you and others can argue otherwise...and that's ok.