p.10 #1 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
If we end up getting Ottus level performance from the DSLR days in smaller and lighter lenses for around 2k I can definitely see the 50mm in my future. Hopefully, Zeiss will also make wider lenses too in the 20-50mm range.
p.10 #2 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
I feel like the CV 50 APO, 50/1.4GM, 50/1.2GM and Sigma 50/1.2A have all approached or exceeded Otus performance, no? I only know of one comparison, though.
DWOfPaul wrote:
If we end up getting Ottus level performance from the DSLR days in smaller and lighter lenses for around 2k I can definitely see the 50mm in my future. Hopefully, Zeiss will also make wider lenses too in the 20-50mm range.
p.10 #3 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
Dave Sanders wrote:
I feel like the CV 50 APO, 50/1.4GM, 50/1.2GM and Sigma 50/1.2A have all approached or exceeded Otus performance, no? I only know of one comparison, though.
They will really have to make their case with this new Otus line-up because yes there are a lot of excellent lenses out there on E, RF and Z mount. Even more so with E and Z sharing lenses directly through adapters.
p.10 #4 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
I agree several years ago Otis may have had the edge in IQ today given new glass from several companies I’m not so sure Otis still would have the edge. Second part would it be worth it and I tend to think not so much. Will see just all talk right now. But glad to see them get back in.
p.10 #5 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
If the rumoured price is correct, I anticipate that the used prices on the dslr Otus's will start to plummet(at least on the 55 and 85).
Don't have an Otus 85 and have thought about it a few times and although I am quite happy with my Otus dslr trinity I see myself on board for the 85RF and although 50 is close to 55, 50 is a favourite focal length for me so I am likely on board for the 50RF. Likely keep the dslr's as I could use them on a future GFX purchase.
Hopefully there will not be a long wait for a wider offering.
p.10 #6 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
Dave Sanders wrote:
The new Otus 85/1.4 is only 1cm shorter, 1cm narrower and less than 100g lighter than the old Otus 85. It's still a very large lens.
Yes, it is still a very large lens, but does this comparison already account for the adapter that is needed to use the old Otus with the Sony?
p.10 #7 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
Dave Sanders wrote:
I feel like the CV 50 APO, 50/1.4GM, 50/1.2GM and Sigma 50/1.2A have all approached or exceeded Otus performance, no? I only know of one comparison, though.
I have the CV 50mm APO, and it's an awesome lens. It is f2, though, instead of f1.4. An f1.4 lens will be about double as large as an f2 lens. Each larger f stop also makes it harder for lens designers to keep lens aberrations under control. Based on general market trends, that will cause an f1.4 lens to be about 30-50% more than an f2 lens. As much as I like CV lenses I do feel there is something to Zeiss rendering that is different to CV and that I prefer the Zeiss rendering. I also think Zeiss build quality feels a bit better than CV, but I feel that also leads to Zeiss lenses being heavier, so there is a trade off.
When the original Otus 55mm lens came out there was no other 50mm lens that came close, so Zeiss was able to get away with a 4k MF 50mm while most 50mm AF lenses were 1k or less. IDK if in 2025 Zeiss could make a 4k lens that is vastly superior to other available 50mm lenses. Which makes me think their best move is to lower their price point to closer match the market, but it probably also means the new Zeiss 50mm, while having some Zeiss magic, will not be vastly superior to other 50mm options on the market.
The only thing that kind of confuses me is Zeiss relaunching the Otus lineup and not making this a completely new lens lineup since the lens mounts have changed, the design style has changed, and the price point has probably changed. Admittedly, I am much more likely to buy a 2k 50mm lens than a 4k 50mm lens, and I really don't care what the lens lineup is called. I just hope the new lenses live up to the Otus expectations or I see people being very disappointed, especially since it's been years with no new Zeiss lenses.
p.10 #8 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
The point of modern design is to minimize size and weight while using clever design work to deliver high end IQ - it's in all the market sectors - but here we see a another Zeiss monster in the 85/1.4. The 50mm looks more like a needlessy heavy competitor for the AF lenses like the GM 50/1.4 that weighs 150 grams less than this 50mm, with the same level of complexity.
A 1040g 85mm, no doubt with a huge filter thread, that only manages to shave off a few millimetres and 100 grams from the big bad DSLR version of the Otus? It weighs just 90 grams less than the Nano Prime 75mm! Twice the weight of the Loxia 85mm, already too heavy itself. Three times the weight of the VM 75/1.5. So it's a back to the future effort, even down to the silly ring designs. The only thing you save on is the adapter.
This - 88 x 113mm, 1040g - is not many peoples' idea of 'compact and portable form'. With a strong and complex aspherical presence to deal with the angle of incidence issues? Very niche, more of the same, one for the true believers. Good luck to them though, and at $3000 they will be needing it. How many shoot MF portraits with a 1000g lens on 'ML' bodies? Studios..
p.10 #9 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
If I understand it correctly, physically larger designs like these allow larger elements; that results in potentially better bokeh (i.e. less/no cat-eye near frame edges, less 'swirl'). It's not like they are bigger for no good reason.
p.10 #10 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
There's the reality of the physics required to make an f/1.4 lens. 85/1.4 could maybe be shaved down to 67mm filter size, but I can't recall ever seeing this with past designs from anyone. It's been 72mm and larger. On top of that, if you have read some of Dr. Nasse's publications, there's a strong indication that Zeiss's lens design philosophy is to err on the side of more glass than less. So, potentially oversized elements but also more of them so that each one has to do less 'heavy lifting.'
Leica M on the other hand is incentivized by the philosophy of the system to create lenses as small as possible, which also means as few elements as possible. But that puts a lot more demand on each element, on manufacturing and assembly precision, etc. With the 'freedom' of the SL system, one can see that even Leica went bigger with their excellent APO Summicron ASPH primes, which are relatively large (67mm filter size) for f/2 lenses. Meanwhile Canon's new VCM f/1.4 line of primes are nearly identical in size to the Summicrons, but one stop faster. Of course there are tradeoffs. One of which appears to be strong reliance on software-based distortion correction with the wider lenses.
Dare I bring this up about the new Zeiss lenses, given these are strictly mirrorless: any bets on how much reliance on software distortion correction??
p.10 #12 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
I'm not surprised. Cosina/Voigtlander have seriously improved over the past ~10 years (as has everyone else, too) and continued catering to the Sony mirrorless market after Zeiss went AWOL. With the 'vacuum' of Zeiss's absence, someone was bound to take advantage of the opportunity.
But Cosina/Voigtlander can't sit idly content either, considering all the interesting stuff coming out of China recently. Manual focus lenses are technically less complex, low hanging fruit and a foot in the door for the Chinese brands. Though it appears some of them consider manual focus as a stepping stone to build market awareness ahead of the transition to AF models.
Lee Saxon wrote:
In that leaked photo, they don't to me look to really be bigger than Loxias, which is *way* *way* smaller than the SLR Otus. I realize the constrains of SLR vs. mirrorless are different, but you don't see anything close to an Otus[SLR]->Loxia size reduction between similar CaNikon SLR & mirrorless lenses. So it seems hard to believe that these are going to be Otus-level in correction and sharpness. Gotta wonder whether these are really more "Milvus Mirrorless" but using the more-highly-regarded Otus name (and external cosmetic design) for marketing reasons....
I wondered this too - if these are maybe more analogous to Milvus than Otus.
Given how good everyone's lenses are now, how much better can the Zeiss be? Maybe there's room for some Zeiss 'character' lenses, but I suspect for the price point these will be in, buyers will rather have perfection. Or as close to it.
p.10 #13 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
rscheffler wrote:
I'm not surprised. Cosina/Voigtlander have seriously improved over the past ~10 years (as has everyone else, too) and continued catering to the Sony mirrorless market after Zeiss went AWOL. With the 'vacuum' of Zeiss's absence, someone was bound to take advantage of the opportunity.
But Cosina/Voigtlander can't sit idly content either, considering all the interesting stuff coming out of China recently. Manual focus lenses are technically less complex, low hanging fruit and a foot in the door for the Chinese brands. Though it appears some of them consider manual focus as a stepping stone to build market awareness ahead of the transition to AF models. ...Show more →
Zeiss definitely left a void that other manufacturers have been filling. Voigtlander has taken over for high quality MF lenses. Sigma has kind of taken over from the Otus / Milvus / ZF lines with the Sigma art and I lenses for optical quality, size, and creativity. And the Chinese manufacturers are getting better and better. Venus Optics is making good and unique lenses, Viltrox is starting to look like a Sigma competitor in the making, Thypoch Simera is looking extremely promising, and I am sure there are some I am missing. If Thypoch Simera had electronic couplings, I would definitely have the 28mm and 35mm in my bag. They seem like an ideal mix of what I like about the Zeiss and Voigtlander lenses. The world of lenses is getting more and more competitive by the year.
rscheffler wrote:
I wondered this too - if these are maybe more analogous to Milvus than Otus.
Given how good everyone's lenses are now, how much better can the Zeiss be? Maybe there's room for some Zeiss 'character' lenses, but I suspect for the price point these will be in, buyers will rather have perfection. Or as close to it.
I was thinking that too, that the lenses may be closer to Milvus lenses. But I think at this point, if there 2k lenses that have Milvus level of performance with the Otus branding, they will be a major disappointment.
p.10 #14 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
rscheffler wrote:
I'm not surprised. Cosina/Voigtlander have seriously improved over the past ~10 years (as has everyone else, too) and continued catering to the Sony mirrorless market after Zeiss went AWOL. With the 'vacuum' of Zeiss's absence, someone was bound to take advantage of the opportunity.
But Cosina/Voigtlander can't sit idly content either, considering all the interesting stuff coming out of China recently. Manual focus lenses are technically less complex, low hanging fruit and a foot in the door for the Chinese brands. Though it appears some of them consider manual focus as a stepping stone to build market awareness ahead of the transition to AF models.
I wondered this too - if these are maybe more analogous to Milvus than Otus.
Given how good everyone's lenses are now, how much better can the Zeiss be? Maybe there's room for some Zeiss 'character' lenses, but I suspect for the price point these will be in, buyers will rather have perfection. Or as close to it....Show more →
"...how much better can the Zeiss be?" Good question IMO, but also looks like we will have that answer on the 25th of this month.
p.10 #15 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
The bulk of Canon users are averse to MF lenses, period. So these lenses are targeted at Sony and Nikon users. Sony have not really modernised their MF aids.
Not many photographers have good experiences using a 1000 gram 85/1.4 with a (no doubt) lengthy focus ring rotation. No one buys an 85mm f1.4 to use much at stopped down apertures.
DOF is wafer thin. They don't balance well on 600-750 gram bodies. It's why we see many Voigtlanders do well in the hands of Sony and Nikon MF enthusiasts, they weigh less than half this new Otus 85mm, and they have snappy focusing. And they are designed for human hands, not robots.
The giant heavyweights from Sigma et al are being discontinued or discounted. Sony reduced their 85/1.4 from 820g to 640g, and it is a 14/11 design with fabulous AF. See the picture? Some listen and some do not. C/N's 85s are specialist optics, even with AF. Not much heavier either than this Otus 85mm.
In light of Zeiss's failure to heed the modern imperatives of small to moderate size / weight of both stills and cine lenses, one that has seen all new entry makers respond with a fascinating array of lenses, the bone-headed approach by Zeiss has me thinking the thread we need is the one that really matters:
'Returning to Zeiss?'
What would it take, what would you have to see in the way of image quality and above the old Otus or other options to buy in? Where would you use it?
p.10 #16 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
Dave Sanders wrote:
I feel like the CV 50 APO, 50/1.4GM, 50/1.2GM and Sigma 50/1.2A have all approached or exceeded Otus performance, no? I only know of one comparison, though.
I'm very, very fortunate to own a lot of glass and systems, more fortunate to have also have tested everything essentially across the motion picture lenses and still glass. But, just want to provide some perspective and thoughts.
Yes, at the time the original Otus were released, they were way ahead of most. It was really a Zeiss Otus and Sigma Art world for a hot minute in terms of modern, clean, well corrected, low CA, and fast primes for Full Frame/135 format.
Now there's about 16X 50mm-ish I'd classify as "in the discussion". Two of which are from middle format/medium format, several of which are from motion picture sets that are likely too expensive to keep in the same conversation.
What is interesting to me is the nuance that separates them. For instance, the best 50mm on the market today that I would rate is followed closely by the second best as that other lens is indeed higher resolving in the center and designed a bit to not have a perfectly even field of focus, which also expresses itself in arguably prettier bokeh and focus roll-off. Both being well corrected, it's a real battle of split hairs.
Zeiss Otus ML will find itself in a field of competition. And I do credit Zeiss for entering a crowded pool of goodness. We'll have to suspect that the f/1.4 aperture will yield a very nice bokeh and subject separation even when stopped down to say f/2 when compared against those primes. You'll be hearing about bokeh, texture, and focus fall-off there. Interestingly, I was expecting more iris blades with these designs, but the iris design themselves has much more to do with bokeh shape and quality than the blade count.
The only miss here at launch is not having a wide. Tough one there. And starting at 50mm inspired a lot of direction they can go for additional focal lengths and they have put a post in the sand with 85mm in there. All fine and good. We just have to wait and see. And as we learned with Otus prior, the wides will likely be the harder glass to design.
I'm here for it. I want to see what they can do in 2025. A lot of advancements since Otus have transpired in lens manufacturing. I hope this is still Zeiss at their best, rather than exploiting the name of a well loved set from not long ago that still is a top performer.
p.10 #17 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
Question is, I purchased an Otus 55 for $1700 used in LN condition and its still within the return window. Thinking I should return it and reconsider the new lenses or other excellent 50 choices in the market.
p.10 #18 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
That’s a huge 85. The 50 is reasonable. APO lenses with sharp corners sounds good. I suspect we’ll get published MTFs shortly too. Will we learn if they are rehoused nano primes? Like others I’d much prefer a wide angle <=28mm in this form factor. Hard to see how the 50 will beat Sony’s 50 1.2. The 85 1.4 may be the toppler given the split personalities of the GM1 and GM2. If it can consolidate the benefits of both lenses into one, maybe folks will look past the missing AF.
p.10 #19 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
I would have loved something like the Milvus 85mm redesigned for mirrorless, but that doesn't seem to be the case considering this is a "Sonnar" design, which makes me raise my brow a bit in suspicion. Both the Milvus and original Otus 85mm were true Zeiss Planar designs (even if I found the bokeh kind of ugly on the Otus). The Batis 85, which is a Tamron design, was branded as Sonnar. So is this going to be an actual Zeiss design with Zeiss rendering? I guess we'll find out. At any rate it's still probably too heavy.
p.10 #20 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
philip_pj wrote:
The bulk of Canon users are averse to MF lenses, period. So these lenses are targeted at Sony and Nikon users. Sony have not really modernised their MF aids.
Sorry, IMO this statement is BS and just an individual opinion. The only reason Sony is dominant in MF discussions here is that they were first to provide a usable FF mirrorless system with easy adaptability of virtually any vintage lens. That was extremely appealing to the very narrow niche of Alt users here and many quickly transitioned to Sony. Had Canon or Nikon been first, it would have been the same thing. But there was no incentive for either of those companies to go whole hog on mirrorless before it was ready for prime time (meaning AF performance with challenging moving subjects at least as good as the high-end DSLRs).
I'd argue that the bulk of all mirrorless/DSLR users are/were averse to MF lenses, period. No matter the brand.
If the new Zeiss is 'only' as good as the Sony 50/1.2 or 50/1.4, but more expensive, how many will pay a premium for MF over AF? Same can be said for Nikon and Canon users vs. their native 50/1.2 models.
I don't really spend much time on the Sony board but wouldn't be surprised if the overall interest and sentiment is pro-AF. How many early Sony users adapted 3rd party MF lenses, or Canon EF, only to drop those in a heartbeat once native AF options became available?
