p.11 #1 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
Picture This! wrote:
Question is, I purchased an Otus 55 for $1700 used in LN condition and its still within the return window. Thinking I should return it and reconsider the new lenses or other excellent 50 choices in the market.
If your return window ends after the announcement date I'd wait to see the complete details of the lens and offcial price. Rumors don't always match an official announcement. The price could be higher or lower.
On the other hand if you prefer a native mount, the latest offering or something else then send it back.
One other consideration assuming rumoured price is correct the resale price of an Otus 55 will drop once the new Otus 50 hits the street as the demand for a 55 drops as most will go for the new over the old.
p.11 #2 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
As much as I'm intrigued by the leaked specs (like everyone else here), in general, I don't like leaks. It's like knowing the end result of a movie, without knowing anything about the plot. So, now we know focal lengths, dimensions, max apertures etc., but we don't have any info about the concept behind these new Otus lenses. I'm a kind of guy that's more interested about the concept than the actual specs (that's just me and I can definitely understand the opposite views). So I'm hoping to see some interesting concept behind these lenses at 25th. And I'm hoping Zeiss see's there's something groundbreaking with these new designs, whether it's the 'compact' size, rendering aesthetics, or something else that justifies the Otus naming. If it's just new fast lenses for the already pretty saturated market, then I don't see so much interest in these. But I'm pretty optimistic that their marketing team will be able to charm me in any case...
p.11 #3 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
Kalainen wrote:
[...] But I'm pretty optimistic that their marketing team will be able to charm me in any case...
So am I. Or maybe not really optimistic but I have some hopes. When peeping:
From the leaked material it seems as Zeiss mainly pushes manual focusing as an advantage over other lenses. Among a total of six points we can read things like these:
▪ In a low-light conditions by manually adjusting the focus one can have more control over challenging lighting situations and achieve sharpness exactly where they want
▪ For portraits, especially with a wide aperture depth of field is very shallow, manual focus allows greater control in focusing
▪ Otus ML lenses can offer an advantage in controlling the depth of field, as the photographer has full control over the focus point By manually focusing on a specific area in the frame, the photographer can choose the exact point of focus and control the depth of field accordingly.
OK... Well, they also mention APO (good) and portability (?). There is nothing about rendering, style, the Zeiss look, classic or other more imaginative values.
So, when thinking about it. my expectations are on the low side. Also, I already have the CV 50/2 APO.
p.11 #4 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
Jonas B wrote:
From the leaked material it seems as Zeiss mainly pushes manual focusing as an advantage over other lenses. [...]
There is nothing about rendering, style, the Zeiss look, classic or other more imaginative values.
That was my observation too, but I'm thinking (hoping) that these leaks coming from the retailers don't necessarily include everything Zeiss would communicate themselve. Regarding cine-lenses Zeiss has had a lot of ambitious forward thinking projects (gentle sharpness, radiance lenses, emphasis on skin rendering, integration with data-technologies, etc.). I'm hoping (expecting) some of this cutting edge in-house knowledge is transferred to photo lenses also.
One thing why I some chinese manufacturers leave me cold, is that they never seem to have some sort of bigger strategy/concept behind their lenses. It's just 'more sharpness and bokeh with less money' type of approach. With Zeiss I expect more than just a bunch of fast lenses.
p.11 #5 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
The Chinese are just not good at marketing to an international audience. A lot more intelligence and intent go into their products than they communicate.
I have both Viltrox Pros and they are breathtaking. To me they exhibit extremely high design maturity. I doubt they were designed in-house by Viltrox. There are lots of design consultancies around the world, like the one that designed the Signature and Enso for Arri.
The guy who designed the Sony 1,8/55 is now working for DJI in… Japan, for instance.
Kalainen wrote:
That was my observation too, but I'm thinking (hoping) that these leaks coming from the retailers don't necessarily include everything Zeiss would communicate themselve. Regarding cine-lenses Zeiss has had a lot of ambitious forward thinking projects (gentle sharpness, radiance lenses, emphasis on skin rendering, integration with data-technologies, etc.). I'm hoping (expecting) some of this cutting edge in-house knowledge is transferred to photo lenses also.
One thing why I some chinese manufacturers leave me cold, is that they never seem to have some sort of bigger strategy/concept behind their lenses. It's just 'more sharpness and bokeh with less money' type of approach. With Zeiss I expect more than just a bunch of fast lenses. ...Show more →
p.11 #6 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
Also retired lens designers tend to freelance. They also move around. You should read up (if you can find on the net) about the career of the designer of the Contax Zeiss 35-70/3,4. He was prolific.
p.11 #7 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
The Leitz Cine Primes were designed by a former Panavision lens designer for instance. He’s British. He also designed various lens families for Cooke, and still consults for Cooke, or for that matter anyone who pays him. I forgot his name.
Feb 20, 2025 at 05:18 AM
Steve Spencer Online • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.11 #8 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
LBJ2 wrote:
"...how much better can the Zeiss be?" Good question IMO, but also looks like we will have that answer on the 25th of this month.
We will see what the performance is like. If the $2,000ish for the 50 and the $2,250ish price for the 85 are correct, then really they are competing with GM type prices on Sony, S series f/1.2 lenses on Nikon, and f/1.2 L prices on Canon. I think they will be better than these lenses in control of CA. I expect with the Otus label and clear APO designation for them to be excellent in that respect.
How can these Otus lenses be better? So far almost all APO lenses have bokeh that is pretty average. They often have very sharp rendering, but with transition zones that can be a little harsh. They also tend to have football shape bokeh balls that extend pretty far into the frame. I love the Voigtlander 50 f/2 APO, but the bokeh is only ok, not excellent. With a Sonnar design (Sonnars are renown for their bokeh), and larger size, the 85 Otus might well be both APO and have excellent bokeh. Imagine a lens with the sharpness of the Sony 85 GM II, the bokeh of the Sony 85 GM OG, and deserving of its APO designation. That is how the Otus 85 ML can be better. I am not saying the lens will necessarily be that good, but people are asking how these lenses can be better and that is how they could be better. No lens has combined excellent control of CA (fully APO), very good sharpness, and excellent bokeh. For me a lens that did all that, I would be happy to manual focus, but YMMV.
Personally, these lenses don't even have to be nearly as sharp as the 50 f/1.4 GM or the 85 GM II, just so it is reasonably sharp, has excellent CA control and excellent bokeh. Even that would be something that I don't see in the market at either 50mm or 85mm and something that would get my money.
p.11 #9 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
Kalainen wrote:
That was my observation too, but I'm thinking (hoping) that these leaks coming from the retailers don't necessarily include everything Zeiss would communicate themselve. [...]
The reseller leaking the info has surely just quoted the marketing material provided by Zeiss. There might be more of course. We'll see.
Steve Spencer wrote:
[...]
Personally, these lenses don't even have to be nearly as sharp as the 50 f/1.4 GM or the 85 GM II, just so it is reasonably sharp, has excellent CA control and excellent bokeh. Even that would be something that I don't see in the market at either 50mm or 85mm and something that would get my money.
I like that. "Sharpness" is very overrated. But, the new Zeiss 50 has to be _very_ special to make me replace the CV 50 APO.Again, we'll see. Now I'll just wait for Juhas observations and then the reviews.
p.11 #10 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
Steve Spencer wrote:
We will see what the performance is like. If the $2,000ish for the 50 and the $2,250ish price for the 85 are correct, then really they are competing with GM type prices on Sony, S series f/1.2 lenses on Nikon, and f/1.2 L prices on Canon. I think they will be better than these lenses in control of CA. I expect with the Otus label and clear APO designation for them to be excellent in that respect.
How can these Otus lenses be better? So far almost all APO lenses have bokeh that is pretty average. They often have very sharp rendering, but with transition zones that can be a little harsh. They also tend to have football shape bokeh balls that extend pretty far into the frame. I love the Voigtlander 50 f/2 APO, but the bokeh is only ok, not excellent. With a Sonnar design (Sonnars are renown for their bokeh), and larger size, the 85 Otus might well be both APO and have excellent bokeh. Imagine a lens with the sharpness of the Sony 85 GM II, the bokeh of the Sony 85 GM OG, and deserving of its APO designation. That is how the Otus 85 ML can be better. I am not saying the lens will necessarily be that good, but people are asking how these lenses can be better and that is how they could be better. No lens has combined excellent control of CA (fully APO), very good sharpness, and excellent bokeh. For me a lens that did all that, I would be happy to manual focus, but YMMV.
Personally, these lenses don't even have to be nearly as sharp as the 50 f/1.4 GM or the 85 GM II, just so it is reasonably sharp, has excellent CA control and excellent bokeh. Even that would be something that I don't see in the market at either 50mm or 85mm and something that would get my money....Show more →
Good first-crack at what the new Otus ML lenses might be IQ wise! I've also been reading up on the Zeiss Cine Nano Primes for some clues on the same, no idea if there might be any IQ relationship. My guess is the new Otus ML photography series would have been designed with the new computer aided process Zeiss used to design the Nano lenses too.
I also look forward to the initial release to include the official Zeiss marketing description of their new Otus ML lenses. I'm a potential customer for the MF-only Otus ML lens or two. No apologies 😎
@PhilH
I have not been able to find any official Zeiss published MTFs for any of the Zeiss Cine lens series I've checked so far, other than the older Lensrental.com generated MTFs for earlier Zeiss Cine system. I'm not familiar with Cine lenses, so wondering if Cine lens MTF is not something Zeiss would typically release to the public?
p.11 #11 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
Dave Sanders wrote:
I feel like the CV 50 APO, 50/1.4GM, 50/1.2GM and Sigma 50/1.2A have all approached or exceeded Otus performance, no? I only know of one comparison, though.
I'm intrigued by your comment.
I love my CV's and the output, in particular from their APO-Lanthars, which I thought were similar enough to the Zeiss Milvus lenses I owned (3x) that I eventually sold them and invested heavily in CV's. I always thought the financially out-of-reach Otus lenses as a 'holy-grail' and so my question is whether the lenses you mentioned really come close to Otus IQ?
I certainly hope so, so that I can put to rest my compulsion to buy one.
p.11 #12 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
LBJ2 wrote:
@PhilH@
I have not been able to find any official Zeiss published MTFs for any of the Zeiss Cine lens series I've checked so far, other than the older Lensrental.com generated MTFs for earlier Zeiss Cine system. I'm not familiar with Cine lenses, so wondering if Cine lens MTF is not something Zeiss would typically release to the public?
To somewhat defend the other side of that perspective, cinema glass may be chosen because of how funky through clean along with a million other reasons, and MTF charts may not reveal why a DP will choose a lens as it doesn't reveal all characteristics.
Supremes more or less are designed to have a decent resolving power and smoother look. They are pretty good from whereI stand and work well across their focal lengths. Also, mechanics are very good and build is the same. The industry received them more or less pretty well. Pricing is a bit high in their case, but that's a Zeiss decision more than anything about where to place them in the market.
p.11 #14 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
Between the new Sony GM II 50mm/f1.4 and the Voigtländer 50mm/f2 Apo Lanthar, I‘m not really sure a lens can be that much better that it justifies the extra bulk and weight of a Zeiss lens.
But I‘m extremely interested in the upcoming wide angles.
A compact, but better than the Batis 18mm would be very high on my interest list.
p.11 #17 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
If Cosina is developing these lenses, then it's entirely possible that Shimada Hirokazu will be the chief designer for them. In an article that Cosina published to promote the release of the 50mm APO-Lanthar in E-Mount he states that (in addition to designing optics for satellites) he was responsible for designing fast lenses for Zeiss:
Q: "Besides those for satellites, what other interchangeable lenses have you designed?"
A: "For Voigtlander, it's the entire Micro Four Thirds F0.95 series. For VM, it's the 21mm F1.8. The vintage 35mm F1.7. The retractable 40mm F2.8 is one example. For E-mount, the 40mm F1.2 and Macro Apo-Lanthar 65mm F2 are representative. For ZEISS, we have also designed large-aperture lenses, from telephoto to wide-angle."
So, might be a logical leap, but one could infer that he is the designer for Otus line (at least, the previous incarnation).
At any rate, he also points out the APO-Lanthar uses glass types that weren't available 10 years prior. It's entirely possible that the new Otuses will be 'better' than the SLR mount versions. How much better and what that means...we will find out.
p.11 #18 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
Knut. wrote:
Between the new Sony GM II 50mm/f1.4 and the Voigtländer 50mm/f2 Apo Lanthar, I‘m not really sure a lens can be that much better that it justifies the extra bulk and weight of a Zeiss lens.
The dimensions of the Sony 50/1.4 GM and the Zeiss Otus 50/1.4 are almost identical, so you can't really speak of extra bulk.
The Zeiss is slightly narrower, less bulbous in volume, but marginally longer.
Where it gains is in weight, which is not surprising given the high-quality all-metal construction.
p.11 #19 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!
Vento wrote:
The dimensions of the Sony 50/1.4 GM and the Zeiss Otus 50/1.4 are almost identical, so you can't really speak of extra bulk.
The Zeiss is slightly narrower, less bulbous in volume, but marginally longer.
Where it gains is in weight, which is not surprising given the high-quality all-metal construction.
Zeiss Otus 50/1.4: 77 x 100mm, 677g
Sony GM 50/1.4: 81 x 96mm, 516g
I know they were likely working with final IQ in mind rather than form factor, but the new Otus 50mm looks to be about right in terms of maximum size...like a fat version of the Loxia 85/2.4, which I own.
The rumoured specs on the Otus 85 are too big for me, so I hope the rest of the line lands much closer to the 50.
That said, I'm not the target, I'd buy the 1.4 or 1.2 GM instead
