p.8 #1 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
cmm1398 wrote:
It’s fascinating how someone who doesn’t own Nikon equipment feels so compelled to dive headfirst into a conversation about Nikon’s AF performance. I mean, who needs actual firsthand experience when you can just weigh in with secondhand opinions and amplify what’s likely a sock or troll post? Truly groundbreaking stuff.
But really, what’s the motivation here? A deep concern for Nikon users? A sudden passion for debating the nuances of AF systems you don't use? Or is it just a case of wanting to run down other systems to prop up their preferred brand? Hard to say, but it’s quite the commitment to champion a conversation started by someone who probably created the thread just to stir the pot.
If the goal is really to help, wouldn’t it make more sense to contribute to discussions about gear you actually own and use? You know, where you can provide meaningful insights instead of fanning the flames of what might be a troll agenda.
I am motivated by the camera hobby in general. Simple as that. I didn't post any definitive opinions based on my own testing of this issue with the Z systems, and clearly stated that. Since the thread is about the Z system in contrast to other systems, I did posted by on my experience with the other system. Completely on top and constructive to do that.
The concept that someone must be a user of a Nikon Z system to post in this forum has been debunked many times. I don't understand why people post that instead if just dealing with the subject of the thread. Just seems weak to me.
p.8 #2 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
The ol’ “I’m just motivated by the camera hobby” excuse. Because clearly, being a hobbyist means spending a time in Nikon threads knocking down a system you don’t use. Is there an award for "Most Posts Criticizing Nikon While not Actually Owning One"? If so, congrats—you’re in the running.
And sure, nobody’s saying you have to own a Nikon Z to post, but come on—when you’re constantly showing up just to repeat the same “Nikon’s isn’t great, but Sony is soooo good” spiel, it’s hard not to wonder what’s really driving all this. “Constructive”? Yeah, okay. It’s about as constructive as me reviewing a movie I didn’t watch because someone on the internet told me the plot.
Look, if you’re so fascinated by Nikon’s issues, maybe buy one and actually use it instead of turning every thread into a soapbox for secondhand opinions. Otherwise, it just feels like you’re here for the same reason a troll or sock would be: to stir the pot. Maybe thats your "Hobby".
1bwana1 wrote:
I am motivated by the camera hobby in general. Simple as that. I didn't post any definitive opinions based on my own testing of this issue with the Z systems, and clearly stated that. Since the thread is about the Z system in contrast to other systems, I did posted by on my experience with the other system. Completely on top and constructive to do that.
The concept that someone must be a user of a Nikon Z system to post in this forum has been debunked many times. I don't understand why people post that instead if just dealing with the subject of the thread. Just seems weak to me. ...Show more →
p.8 #3 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
I'm only recently a Nikon user but I always spend many months in various system's forums that I'm interested in adding to my kit or switching to. I don't think it's that weird for someone to be in here who doesn't shoot the system. Unless they truly have no interest in potentially purchasing that brand.
This drama is silly. All this back and forth about trolls without addressing what is the reasoning for the eyelash AF discussion across many sites and forums. I can understand the frustration in trolls trashing a brand but I also wish there was more insight on what is going on that makes this a discussion across multiple years and sites in the first place. I keep seeing it pop up. Maybe it's a nothingburger but it sure seems like something is going on that makes Nikon's focus system exhibit some behavior that doesn't occur on Sony or Canon. Or that makes Nikon not quite as easy to just pickup and use with wide AF-C eye-AF. If someone has any real input on the nuance or settings changes to avoid the issue it'd probably be helpful to some newer Z shooters like myself.
p.8 #5 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
Is there a thread where they were discussed? What was the issue in his testing? Or is it just that he used a mannequin which doesn't translate to real portraits?
RoamingScott wrote:
lol at linking snapsy’s mannequin tests, those were a fun laugh here too.
p.8 #6 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
AlphaPhotography wrote:
I'm only recently a Nikon user but I always spend many months in various system's forums that I'm interested in adding to my kit or switching to. I don't think it's that weird for someone to be in here who doesn't shoot the system. Unless they truly have no interest in potentially purchasing that brand.
This drama is silly. All this back and forth about trolls without addressing what is the reasoning for the eyelash AF discussion across many sites and forums. I can understand the frustration in trolls trashing a brand but I also wish there was more insight on what is going on that makes this a discussion across multiple years and sites in the first place. I keep seeing it pop up. Maybe it's a nothingburger but it sure seems like something is going on that makes Nikon's focus system exhibit some behavior that doesn't occur on Sony or Canon. Or that makes Nikon not quite as easy to just pickup and use with wide AF-C eye-AF. If someone has any real input on the nuance or settings changes to avoid the issue it'd probably be helpful to some newer Z shooters like myself.
It has been extensively canvassed and IIRC there is an issue under certain conditions. I cannot recall the exact circumstances where it arises. This thread traversed the whole thing pretty well, particularly the work done by poster Snapsy https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1855768/18/
Frankly, there are probably better cameras than the Z8/9 if certain types of portraiture are a big part of your work and I am relieved that the OP, if he exists, has taken the advice given to him early in this thread before it went sideways to stick with the Sony ecosystem he is already in and order the A7rV.
p.8 #7 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
Thanks for the link. I'll take a look.
Alistair1 wrote:
It has been extensively canvassed and IIRC there is an issue under certain conditions. I cannot recall the exact circumstances where it arises. This thread traversed the whole thing pretty well, particularly the work done by poster Snapsy https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1855768/18/
Frankly, there are probably better cameras than the Z8/9 if certain types of portraiture are a big part of your work and I am relieved that the OP, if he exists, has taken the advice given to him early in this thread before it went sideways to stick with the Sony ecosystem he is already in and order the A7rV.
"These were both shot using subject detect - full area with subject detect. I believe I had some with a custom 1x1 box that showed the same thing.
The issue is that the focus seems to be on the flowers on top of the head rather than the eye. This is in spite of the fact that the AF box is clearly not on top of the flowers, so we can't blame closest subject priority - at least not directly.
User-supplied image
What I mean in saying "at least not directly" is that this seems to suggest that whatever the AF system is actually doing is not what the viewfinder shows - as if there is actually some sort of "hidden" AF process going on and the system just shows us something for show. It's interesting to think of all of those comments/experiences where people say with the Z8/9 that they're shooting birds or whatever and the AF box is bouncing around to all sorts of places but the shots are all somehow still in focus, not to mention the fact that as we all know the recorded/displayed AF point is not necessarily where the actual AF point was.
Maybe there's something else going on here, but it sure seems like the system is almost "pretending" about what its focusing on and not displaying whatever it's really doing.
My initial reaction, by the way, way much more harsh because at first I thought that every shot all day had this issue. As it turns out, that wasn't the case and most shots didn't do this - but there was certainly a distinct group of shots that did. The light level was obviously fine, too.
There is a clear difference in brightness and contrast between the eye of the subject and the crown of flowers that is shading it. The system appears to be favoring the brighter, contrastier flowers. Zs have been criticized for leaping to a busy, bright background instead of staying on subject…This appears to be an example of it jumping forward.
Yeah, this is what a few people said about the AF going for the pizza instead of the eye in the post I first made a week or so ago to start this discussion and the thing is that even if this is true... I think that actually makes it worse, not better. The reason is that the flowers (and the pizza) aren't in the AF box. They're not even on the edge of it.
It would be one thing if this was for instance the wide area large box without subject detection and the flowers were in the box and the eye was in the box and so the system chose the more contrasty object, because then the system would have been given two targets within the area the AF is supposed to be working with and chosen the one the user didn't want.
If it's jumping to those flowers because they're a better target, though, when the flowers aren't in the box at all, I think that's an enormous problem. One of the fundamental requirements of an AF system is that it can be directed to focus on the thing you want it to. If it can't, then it's essentially worthless. If I put an AF box on a target and the system just can't get focus there because it lacks the necessary illumination or contrast so the AF hunts or misfocuses, that's a little disappointing or frustrating but ultimately it's still a meaningfully useful system: I tell the system to focus in a place and it tries and if it can it does and if it can't it misses. That's very different from if I tell it to focus in a place and it is able to just decide to focus somewhere else because it's easier for it.
In other words, this all raises the fundamental question of whether or not the AF system is, on a very basic level, actually controllable and directable by the user or not. Clearly there's enough contrast and light on the eye to get focus. In fact the system did get focus in plenty of photos in the same location/roughly the same pose/etc., so there's no question it's a viable target for the AF. Yet if what the AF presents to the user is not what it's actually doing - e.g., it tells the user it's working on the eye whereas in reality it's actually working on the flowers because they're easier - that's just such a problem because it means that the user control of the system is essentially an illusion and the system is actually doing some other thing on its own."
RoamingScott wrote:
lol at linking snapsy’s mannequin test (half of your links), those were a fun laugh here too.
p.8 #9 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
I don’t spend my time worrying about what other people of questionable skill and ability see on their cameras. I’ve been using the cameras in question for years without these issues (and without the best lenses available), so logic determines that it’s down to the user.
p.8 #10 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
cmm1398 wrote:
The ol’ “I’m just motivated by the camera hobby” excuse. Because clearly, being a hobbyist means spending a time in Nikon threads knocking down a system you don’t use. Is there an award for "Most Posts Criticizing Nikon While not Actually Owning One"? If so, congrats—you’re in the running.
And sure, nobody’s saying you have to own a Nikon Z to post, but come on—when you’re constantly showing up just to repeat the same “Nikon’s isn’t great, but Sony is soooo good” spiel, it’s hard not to wonder what’s really driving all this. “Constructive”? Yeah, okay. It’s about as constructive as me reviewing a movie I didn’t watch because someone on the internet told me the plot.
Look, if you’re so fascinated by Nikon’s issues, maybe buy one and actually use it instead of turning every thread into a soapbox for secondhand opinions. Otherwise, it just feels like you’re here for the same reason a troll or sock would be: to stir the pot. Maybe thats your "Hobby".
I've actually owned a number of Nikons since 2011 and still own one. It was my primary camera system for many years. I also bought he first Z7 in my town. Returned it when it turned out to be so far behind in mirrorless. I probably shot the Z9 before anyone else on this forum. A few members here could confirm that. So, yes I have a hobbyist interest in Nikon.
I never said anything negative about Nikon in this thread, unless you consider agreeing with a number of Nikon users that he AF system has a slightly more difficult workflow that some others a negative.
Still wonder why you focus on stuff like that instead of the subject of the thread. Others are seemingly noticing that as well...
p.8 #11 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
As a Nikon user I can't get a straight answer from a single Nikon user here. I apparently missed all the drama with regards to this subject that led to people being unwilling to respond with real advice. I've seen a few half answers in other threads but nothing that points to this as being a non-issue. It seems like a very real (albeit rare) issue that I haven't seen any sort of fix on, and one that doesn't seem to occur on Sony or Canon. Apparently the fix is "just learn to use the camera you moron."
1bwana1 wrote:
I've actually owned a number of Nikons since 2011 and still own one. It was my primary camera system for many years. I also bought he first Z7 in my town. Returned it when it turned out to be so far behind in mirrorless. I probably shot the Z9 before anyone else on this forum. A few members here could confirm that. So, yes I have a hobbyist interest in Nikon.
I never said anything negative about Nikon in this thread, unless you consider agreeing with a number of Nikon users that he AF system has a slightly more difficult workflow that some others a negative.
Still wonder why you focus on stuff like that instead of the subject of the thread. Others are seemingly noticing that as well...
p.8 #12 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
AlphaPhotography wrote:
As a Nikon user I can't get a straight answer from a single Nikon user here. I apparently missed all the drama with regards to this subject that led to people being unwilling to respond with real advice. I've seen a few half answers in other threads but nothing that points to this as being a non-issue. It seems like a very real (albeit rare) issue that I haven't seen any sort of fix on, and one that doesn't seem to occur on Sony or Canon. Apparently the fix is "just learn to use the camera you moron."
As far as I can see, your concern is video, so I'm wondering, what particular video you have on your mind, that eye in perfect focus is so critical.
I can think of only head shot in slow motion, otherwise, who can even notice in a moving scene, if eye isn't perfectly in focus.
Sorry on my ignorance, but I'm just curious..
p.8 #13 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
I'm equally concerned with video AF as photo. Video AF is just much harder to find insight about. I usually try to learn as much as I can on it when it comes up in discussion since so few people seem to shoot video here (compared to photos). Even fewer discuss or even care about autofocus in video.
My use cases are walking and talking clients on a gimbal, sports including football, baseball, and soccer, family videos of my nephews running around or playing, videos of my very fast Australian shepherd running around (they can hit 35mph), our cats, lots of birds in flight and other fast moving wildlife. And then all those same examples in low light, high fps burst photos, and general portraiture.
cvrle59 wrote:
As far as I can see, your concern is video, so I'm wondering, what particular video you have on your mind, that eye in perfect focus is so critical.
I can think of only head shot in slow motion, otherwise, who can even notice in a moving scene, if eye isn't perfectly in focus.
Sorry on my ignorance, but I'm just curious..
p.8 #14 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
AlphaPhotography wrote:
I'm equally concerned with video AF as photo. Video AF is just much harder to find insight about. I usually try to learn as much as I can on it when it comes up in discussion since so few people seem to shoot video here (compared to photos). Even fewer discuss or even care about autofocus in video.
My use cases are walking and talking clients on a gimbal, sports including football, baseball, and soccer, family videos of my nephews running around or playing, videos of my very fast Australian shepherd running around (they can hit 35mph), our cats, lots of birds in flight and other fast moving wildlife. And then all those same examples in low light, high fps burst photos, and general portraiture.
If I were you, and it's so important to me, I would either buy used equipment, or I would rent it, then test it on my own.
You will never get unified feed back on internet, it doesn't matter where you go.
I've been reading forums for so long to learn, that you're gonna get completely opposite opinion on pretty much anything.
I don't shoot portraits, except casually, but my Z8/400f4.5 has excellent eye AF tracking on birds, as long as they're big enough in the frame, and no heavy obstructions, like branches, or so.
The only weak situation is on the water surface, during "landings" or take offs, it will miss sometimes.
p.8 #15 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
AlphaPhotography wrote:
As a Nikon user I can't get a straight answer from a single Nikon user here. I apparently missed all the drama with regards to this subject that led to people being unwilling to respond with real advice. I've seen a few half answers in other threads but nothing that points to this as being a non-issue. It seems like a very real (albeit rare) issue that I haven't seen any sort of fix on, and one that doesn't seem to occur on Sony or Canon. Apparently the fix is "just learn to use the camera you moron."
I agree with your observation on this. Unfortunately, it is a pattern repeated by the same few members here.
p.8 #16 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
Of course and that's mainly what I did as I recently picked up a Z8 to test against my R5II. The problem is I don't have access to all lenses or any fast primes currently. One user mentioned this issue is lens dependent and that the 85mm f1.8 performs worse than the 85mm f1.2. I don't know if that's true.
I also don't know what potential workarounds or fixes there are if/when I encounter these issues, whether in photo or video. Nobody seems to be willing to offer any settings to try out or ones to avoid, or ways to work with the autofocus system differently than with Canon or Sony. I keep seeing along the lines of "Sony and Canon work with less fuss but Nikon needs more tweaking to achieve critical focus". Well what are these needed tweaks I keep seeing mentioned? There must be some insight into the focus system or settings that would be helpful to new Nikon users that apparently must learn a "more complex" system. But the responses (not yours) I keep seeing saying "just learn the camera" aren't all that helpful. Sure I can go out and purchase a $2800 85mm f1.2 Z and then through trial and error figure out what works better in every situation. Or if it doesn't work for my use at all. But are there not some general guidelines or settings with Nikon that would help mitigate any issues? Settings to use or avoid? Situations to watch out for?
cvrle59 wrote:
If I were you, and it's so important to me, I would either buy used equipment, or I would rent it, then test it on my own.
You will never get unified feed back on internet, it doesn't matter where you go.
I've been reading forums for so long to learn, that you're gonna get completely opposite opinion on pretty much anything.
p.8 #17 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
AlphaPhotography wrote:
I'm equally concerned with video AF as photo. Video AF is just much harder to find insight about. I usually try to learn as much as I can on it when it comes up in discussion since so few people seem to shoot video here (compared to photos). Even fewer discuss or even care about autofocus in video.
My use cases are walking and talking clients on a gimbal, sports including football, baseball, and soccer, family videos of my nephews running around or playing, videos of my very fast Australian shepherd running around (they can hit 35mph), our cats, lots of birds in flight and other fast moving wildlife. And then all those same examples in low light, high fps burst photos, and general portraiture.
I'm 80% video, mainly wildlife and mainly small fast shorebirds as close to a long lens as possible. Often in low light. In these circumstances I find the Z9 to be excellent. In fact it will often see the subject in the sand when I cannot. I only know it is there by the movement of the square on the rear screen. The IQ and colour is gorgeous and oversampled 4k goes up to 60fps. I posted this 8k sample earlier in thread. ?si=68vZPM8IP5TFE3Yf&t=69
But I think you will still see some pulsing using AF if the subject is very close, DOF is narrow and you are slowing down from 120fps or perhaps even from 60fps. But I am not sure there is a system yet that solves this. I have briefly tried the R5ii and quickly concluded it was not the answer. Maybe the R1? I haven't use it. I don't thing Sony are very good in this aspect either, from personal experience certainly not the A1.
p.8 #18 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
Thanks for the insight and re-linking that example. Focus looks solid there but those birds are also very light with dark eyes.
When you tried the R5II what differences did you find with regards to AF in photo and video vs the Z9? Did anything stand out? What RF lenses did you try?
Alistair1 wrote:
I'm 80% video, mainly wildlife and mainly small fast shorebirds as close to a long lens as possible. Often in low light. In these circumstances I find the Z9 to be excellent. In fact it will often see the subject in the sand when I cannot. I only know it is there by the movement of the square on the rear screen. The IQ and colour is gorgeous and oversampled 4k goes up to 60fps. I posted this 8k sample earlier in thread. ?si=68vZPM8IP5TFE3Yf&t=69
But I think you will still see some pulsing using AF if the subject is very close, DOF is narrow and you are slowing down from 120fps or perhaps even from 60fps. But I am not sure there is a system yet that solves this. I have briefly tried the R5ii and quickly concluded it was not the answer. Maybe the R1? I haven't use it. I don't thing Sony are very good in this aspect either, from personal experience certainly not the A1.
p.8 #19 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
AlphaPhotography wrote:
Thanks for the insight and re-linking that example. Focus looks solid there but those birds are also very light with dark eyes.
When you tried the R5II what differences did you find with regards to AF in photo and video vs the Z9? Did anything stand out? What RF lenses did you try?
I was using it with the RF 600/4. The R5/ii fine but it was being heavily promoted as the second coming but I could not really tell any difference between it and the Z9/800pf I was shooting it alongside. I actually thought it had bigger problems with long neck avian subjects. But I did not know the system very well and that always puts it at a disadvantage I feel. Have you shot the R1 in video? it looks interesting.
p.8 #20 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
I should add, if you already have the R5/ii, I really do not think you will find improvement or deficit in the Nikon system (or Sony for that matter unless you need to specialist capabilities of the A9/iii). These systems are all so good that getting to know them well and honing the craft yields far greater return than marginal differences between systems.
