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Archive 2024 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

  
 
1bwana1
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p.5 #1 · Why are Leicas so expensive?




johnvanr wrote:
My experience and feelings don’t match yours. I have a M11 and I’m trying out a Zf. My feelings for the Leica aren’t so strong that I cannot imagine getting rid of it. The camera I have that I like the most just holding it, is actually my Olympus OM-1. Fits me like a glove. I’ve tried Leica M in the film days and ditched it. I like its focus on what matters, but don’t buy the rest of the mystique. Actually, this talk of being top-notch and having top build quality, while we all know about its weaknesses actually
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Like I said not for everyone.



Dec 18, 2024 at 04:41 PM
rscheffler
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p.5 #2 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


johnvanr wrote:
My experience and feelings don’t match yours. I have a M11 and I’m trying out a Zf. My feelings for the Leica aren’t so strong that I cannot imagine getting rid of it.

Actually, this talk of being top-notch and having top build quality, while we all know about its weaknesses actually annoys me.

I’ve given up on BMW for similar reasons, not to speak of Boss suits. All German brands that don’t live up to the hype.


Actually that's all part of the 'Leica experience.'

There are the theoretical maximums of performance that the equipment can achieve. Whether you're actually able to get those results somewhat depends on what you get out of the box and/or how well you're able to manage and work around the system's 'quirks.'

It isn't a system that rewards operating it on autopilot. It constantly demands attention. Sometimes it's fun, other times, not so much. IMO the real letdown of Leica is after sales support/service. Most of the quirks/weaknesses I've encountered with the M system I can work with or around. But when it needs to go in, it's not the fast and frictionless experience it should be.



Dec 18, 2024 at 04:50 PM
itai195
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p.5 #3 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


I do echo the sentiment others have expressed that the shooting experience on an M is fairly unique and enjoyable. To me, what stands out the most is that the capabilities and limitations of the camera are so explicitly baked into its design. I am never surprised by what it can or can't do, and that really does simplify my experience using it because I rarely have to question if I've configured some obscure setting incorrectly or am holding it wrong.


Dec 18, 2024 at 04:57 PM
ISO1600
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p.5 #4 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


1bwana1 wrote:
If you can afford those cameras and lenses you can surely afford a reconditioned M9 with a new sensor from Kolari and some used Voigtlander lenses. You get the real Leica experience this way.
https://kolarivision.com/


I'll be honest, I didn't know Kolari did this mod on the M9, and yeah those prices are more reasonable than I expected.
However- I can afford one system, not two, and the M9 would not be a suitable nature/critter camera. I do a lot of nature (macro, freediving, etc) photography here in Okinawa, and a Leica simply would not be ideal for that.

As for others saying to pop into a Leica store and borrow one, etc- Okinawa is not blessed with a Leica shop. Nor do we have rental options here locally. I would need to bounce up to Osaka or Kyoto I would think. Not impossible, but a bit of a hassle.

I've shot Leica M in the past, had a pair of M2s over a decade ago and really enjoyed the experience.



Dec 18, 2024 at 05:02 PM
retrofocus
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p.5 #5 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


DonaldM wrote:
Leica is so expensive while:
1. They use top notch materials
2. Partly those materials are made specifically for them
3. Partly they have to be bought in from Panasonic
4. They have their machines specifically build for them
5. German wages don’t also help
6. They (can) address a specific market segment of well to do photographers

They have currently two lines of lenses (M and SL), and maybe the S line is still to come, which would make three lines for a relatively small company. Plus the Q line of cameras and lenses.
Another line with small AF lenses (M or SL) would be probably
...Show more

Sounds a bit like defending a belief that woodchucks chuck wood and missing in your list is assembly by virgin hands . I am native German but don't believe anything in your above mentioned list other than the salaries give a logic explanation to the pricing. It is much more simple: because Leica can. They have a huge profit margin on each item for sure.



Dec 18, 2024 at 05:51 PM
retrofocus
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p.5 #6 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


johnvanr wrote:
I have a M11 and I’m trying out a Zf. My feelings for the Leica aren’t so strong that I cannot imagine getting rid of it. Actually, this talk of being top-notch and having top build quality, while we all know about its weaknesses actually annoys me. I’ve given up on BMW for similar reasons, not to speak of Boss suits. All German brands that don’t live up to the hype.


I am native German as mentioned above but I kind of agree with you. I have Leica cameras and lenses, but it is just one brand of several ones I am using. To me all the hype around Leica which is well marketed is not working. I would feel uncomfortable being surrounded in a meeting only by Leica enthusiasts. I personally believe that Leica made the best rigid and reliable gear in the 50s with the M3 followed by M2 and M4 - and the decay kind of started when they ventured using cheaper parts causing rangefinder flare etc. This whole luxury brand and collector thingy is just mind-boggling to me. I appreciate Leica's important history for photography and the quality it started off with.

German work stood in the past for high quality and precision. This time is long gone. Now all is globalized, parts come from all over the world and are pre-assembled at all kind of places. Leica still makes excellent stuff and markets it at such, but I don't see this balanced anymore with the asking price especially of new gear. Leica was expensive in the past also but the price-performance gap has significantly widened since. No matter how much money I have, I will never ever purchase a camera for about $9K. Maybe that's because Germans are also often - cheap



Dec 18, 2024 at 06:06 PM
1bwana1
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p.5 #7 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


retrofocus wrote:
I am native German as mentioned above but I kind of agree with you. I have Leica cameras and lenses, but it is just one brand of several ones I am using. To me all the hype around Leica which is well marketed is not working. I would feel uncomfortable being surrounded in a meeting only by Leica enthusiasts. I personally believe that Leica made the best rigid and reliable gear in the 50s with the M3 followed by M2 and M4 - and the decay kind of started when they ventured using cheaper parts causing rangefinder flare etc. This
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People can speculate all they want about Leica pricing. But I have yet to hear anyone make a compelling case that Leica cameras and lenses, particularly the D-Lux 8, The M(x), or the Q(x) are over priced.

Anyone care to take a stab at that?



Dec 18, 2024 at 06:35 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.5 #8 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


The way I look at is Leica's are expensive. They always have been. All this digital stuff costs to much. With Leica, when you're pretty much the only game in town (digital rangefinder), they can set their own price. They are one of the few camera companies that are doing really well financially. So they must be doing something right. When they come out with a new camera, in the past in some cases, there has been long waiting lists. I waited 6 months for the first M9 Monochrom. How many other companies san say that? They cost what the market allows them to cost.


Dec 18, 2024 at 09:58 PM
RustyBug
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p.5 #9 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


ISO1600 wrote:
I've shot Leica M in the past, had a pair of M2s over a decade ago and really enjoyed the experience.


It's those last four words ... so, since you're familiar with it already ... your call if you want that enjoyment again, or not.

Enjoy, or not enjoy.



Dec 18, 2024 at 10:03 PM
chiron
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p.5 #10 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


1bwana1 wrote:
People can speculate all they want about Leica pricing. But I have yet to hear anyone make a compelling case that Leica cameras and lenses, particularly the D-Lux 8, The M(x), or the Q(x) are over priced.

Anyone care to take a stab at that?


The right price for something is what a reasonably well-informed person will pay for it. So, in that sense, Leicas are priced right. In terms of functionality as cameras, they significantly underperform their price point in terms of what similarly priced cameras can do and how well they do it.

Of course, someone may strongly value some aspect or feature of an item that underperforms its competition in other ways--for example, its scarcity value or its manual rangefinder focusing--and the exclusive availability of that feature on a particular product then properly overrides other comparative financial considerations.

It is also the case that items can have narrative or symbolic value that exceeds their functional value, like a baseball glove once used by Willie Mays. Leicas certainly participate in a strong narrative and symbolic context. In this sense, while underperforming in functional and technical terms, as jewelry they are priced about right.



Dec 18, 2024 at 10:12 PM
OregonSun
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p.5 #11 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


Leicas are expensive because they are a Veblen good, i.e., some of their value comes from their perceived exclusivity.

This does not preclude them from also being unique, high quality cameras.



Dec 18, 2024 at 10:24 PM
1bwana1
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p.5 #12 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


airfrogusmc wrote:
The way I look at is Leica's are expensive. They always have been. All this digital stuff costs to much. With Leica, when you're pretty much the only game in town (digital rangefinder), they can set their own price. They are one of the few camera companies that are doing really well financially. So they must be doing something right. When they come out with a new camera, in the past in some cases, there has been long waiting lists. I waited 6 months for the first M9 Monochrom. How many other companies san say that? They cost what the
...Show more

So, expensive, but the market says not overpriced. Which is my point.

If the market demand is greater than Leica can keep up with, they can sell all they make without all the discounts and promotions we see in other brands, then by definition they are not overpriced. The resale market also supports Leicas pricing model.

The exception in Leicas product lineup smay be the SL cameras, and L mount lenses. Inventory always seems to be overstocked, and deals/discounts are frequently used to move product. Personally I see why. Form factor and performance doesn't compete well against other brands, and it doesn't offer a strong enough unique user experience to overcome those deficits.



Dec 18, 2024 at 10:31 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.5 #13 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


chiron wrote:
The right price for something is what a reasonably well-informed person will pay for it. So, in that sense, Leicas are priced right. In terms of functionality as cameras, they significantly underperform their price point in terms of what similarly priced cameras can do and how well they do it.

Of course, someone may strongly value some aspect or feature of an item that underperforms its competition in other ways--for example, its scarcity value or its manual rangefinder focusing--and the exclusive availability of that feature on a particular product then properly overrides other comparative financial considerations.

It is also the case
...Show more

Function? One reason I own Leica digital Ms is the way they function. The M 10s do not have stuff I don't want on a camera. If I wanted all that stuff there are plenty of other options on the market. Leica Ms function perfect for the way I see and work. Just because they aren't gadget heavy, for some like me, means that they function perfectly. Creative tools shouldn't be thrown into the consumer car buying mentality. You know, the more features the better. Some photographers like me want things that function more simply. With less to come between us and the process. A camera, like Leica M, because the way it functions allows me to fully control the process. Less is more kind of approach. Nice to have a true alternative to all the other choices out there.



Edited on Dec 18, 2024 at 11:01 PM · View previous versions



Dec 18, 2024 at 10:40 PM
rscheffler
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p.5 #14 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


1bwana1 wrote:
People can speculate all they want about Leica pricing. But I have yet to hear anyone make a compelling case that Leica cameras and lenses, particularly the D-Lux 8, The M(x), or the Q(x) are over priced.

Anyone care to take a stab at that?


M and Q are quite unique cameras and if you want what they specifically offer, then you don't really have a choice. But if you just need a camera, well then there are a lot of less expensive options with comparable technical image quality. Apparently, many just need a camera.

The D-Lux though, based on common internet wisdom, is 'simply' a Panasonic rebadge. And an old one at that. The age of the tech in that camera only compounds the argument many make that it is severely overpriced. Similar arguments can be made about the L-mount system. Most of it is sourced from other manufacturers, and some also available from those manufacturers' own product lines, albeit not as 'refined' as the Leica versions.

Interestingly the D-Lux 8 was a gear of the year pick for one of the DPR editors. Browse the comments and you will quickly see the many reasons given why at least this Leica is overpriced.




Dec 18, 2024 at 10:51 PM
RustyBug
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p.5 #15 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


1bwana1 wrote:
So, expensive, but the market says not overpriced. Which is my point.

If the market demand is greater than Leica can keep up with, they can sell all they make without all the discounts and promotions we see in other brands, then by definition they are not overpriced. The resale market also supports Leicas pricing model.

The exception in Leicas product lineup smay be the SL cameras, and L mount lenses. Inventory always seems to be overstocked, and deals/discounts are frequently used to move product. Personally I see why. Form factor and performance doesn't compete well against other brands, and it
...Show more

Valuation comes in a variety of forms.

Classically, there is intrinsic value (i.e. the cost to manufacture or the value of its commodity components, etc.) and the extrinsic value (subjective).

A lot of folks "harp" on Leica as being overpriced, as a "luxury" brand, when a zillion others will do the same thing, or better from a technical or features perspective, etc.

But, as a form of extrinsic value ... the experience of shooting with a Leica is something that is not done the same (speaking to the M, mostly) by other brands. For some folks, the experience of their haptics has value. People will pay (i.e. they value) certain experiences. People pay for a vacation to relax on a beach. One could argue that you can just stay at home and relax, instead of spending the money to relax. What, you say it isn't the same thing to sit in your living room, as it is to wiggle your toes in the ocean ... well, they both let you relax, don't they.

For many, the arguments that the Leica experience is only a luxury brand ... it falls short. For them, it is an "experience" brand. The haptic of the size / weight / precision of manual focus, rangefinder, etc. Some folks pay lots of money to go to concert after concert after concert ... in order to enjoy the experience of it. I can dig on a concert, too. But, the amount of money someone spends to go to a dozen concerts a year ... well, that's a luxury, too.

We all have our own sense of valuation when it comes to what we will pay for in terms of an experience. I can take a picture of a lion at the Wild Animal Park for little money. I can take a picture of a lion in Africa for a lot of money. Two different ways to get a picture of a lion. Two different experiences. Two different valuations. Two different costs.

For those folks who are trying to present an objective case against a subjective experience ... it's an illogical rationale (oxymoron) when you try to apply rationale to subjective emotion (i.e. the experience) associated with extrinsic value.

And yet, folks still try to do so ... to eternity and beyond.




Dec 18, 2024 at 11:05 PM
1bwana1
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p.5 #16 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


rscheffler wrote:
The D-Lux though, based on common internet wisdom, is 'simply' a Panasonic rebadge. And an old one at that. The age of the tech in that camera only compounds the argument many make that it is severely overpriced. Similar arguments can be made about the L-mount system. Most of it is sourced from other manufacturers, and some also available from those manufacturers' own product lines, albeit not as 'refined' as the Leica versions.

Interestingly the D-Lux 8 was a gear of the year pick for one of the DPR editors. Browse the comments and you will quickly see the many
...Show more


I don't know that i fully agree with this assessment of the D-Lux 8 Ron. I have one it provides a very Leica user experience unlike the previous versions in the D-Lux line. They were very much rebranded Panasonics. That is no longer the case.

Common internet wisdom is often 100% wrong as the recent poling and election results demonstrated so well. I thinking it likely that those making such posts have no real experience with the D-Lux 8.


Just about every component of the D-Lux 8 is new and different than the D-Lux 7. The body, all controls, all, ports, the wireless components, the USB-C components, are all new. The firmware and user interface is fully new and fully in line with current Leica products. The camera feels and works very much like a Q.

Remember, the Q lenses are Panasonic lenses too. Panasonic has what is often said to be the Worlds most advanced Aspherical lens manufacturing plant. The make the aspherical elements for many of the highest quality brands. The Q lenses have also not changed between different generations of the Q cameras. If Leica doesn't think they can do better than the existing lens, then why change it?

There are some that say that the base sensor is not the same as well. Partially evidenced by improved power efficiency, heat efficiency, and dynamic range. I am not sure about this but these attributes did in fact change.

Can you show me a similar camera quality wise, with this zoom range, and form factor, for significantly less money. I don't know of one. That I think is why there are long wait lists Worldwide for this camera.

When used within its performance range the D-Lux 8 produces excellent quality images.

Edited on Dec 19, 2024 at 12:34 AM · View previous versions



Dec 18, 2024 at 11:22 PM
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p.5 #17 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


This thread is really interesting from a psychological perspective. So many view current-day-Leica through Leica-the-way-it-was lenses.

Being a luxury brand is all fine and good if you're offering a materially better product, materially better support, etc. In the last 12-24 months that entire argument for this particular luxury brand has been completely upended by countless horror stories here and beyond.

It's really, really, REALLY hard for some folks who are deep in a brand's briar patch to see the entire forest.



Dec 19, 2024 at 12:06 AM
johnvanr
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p.5 #18 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


rscheffler wrote:
Actually that's all part of the 'Leica experience.'

There are the theoretical maximums of performance that the equipment can achieve. Whether you're actually able to get those results somewhat depends on what you get out of the box and/or how well you're able to manage and work around the system's 'quirks.'

It isn't a system that rewards operating it on autopilot. It constantly demands attention. Sometimes it's fun, other times, not so much. IMO the real letdown of Leica is after sales support/service. Most of the quirks/weaknesses I've encountered with the M system I can work with or around. But
...Show more

Actually, one of my frustrations is that I tend to use the Leica too much on autopilot because I use it mostly for street photography and use zone focus. That’s not the camera’s fault, but it feels like I’m using a very expensive point and shoot. The other reason I’m not as creative with it, is the precise focusing at smaller apertures. I’m still dealing with that one. That, of course, is the result of my eye sight combined with rangefinder focusing. With the M11, I can’t focus the 75/1.5 wide open, with the Zf I can.

I’m actually in Holland right now, where the sun hasn’t shown itself for 10 days. That reminds me of why I got into Leica, which is the small lenses combined with full frame. My MFT kit shows its weaknesses in the constant grayness and my Canon is too large for my liking to walk around with. The lure of small excellent FF lenses is still as strong as ever.



Dec 19, 2024 at 02:04 AM
johnvanr
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p.5 #19 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


1bwana1 wrote:
People can speculate all they want about Leica pricing. But I have yet to hear anyone make a compelling case that Leica cameras and lenses, particularly the D-Lux 8, The M(x), or the Q(x) are over priced.

Anyone care to take a stab at that?


Well, they’re overpriced for what they are. But so are all luxury goods. As long as they sell, they are priced well.

I think the irony is that if any Chinese company would launch a competitor, it would have to be really cheap to make an impact. Only a rangefinder under the Nikon or Zeiss brands could probably catch some of the brand cachet that Leica has and uses to its full potential, and beyond.



Dec 19, 2024 at 02:12 AM
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p.5 #20 · Why are Leicas so expensive?




johnvanr wrote:
Well, they’re overpriced for what they are. But so are all luxury goods. As long as they sell, they are priced well.

I think the irony is that if any Chinese company would launch a competitor, it would have to be really cheap to make an impact. Only a rangefinder under the Nikon or Zeiss brands could probably catch some of the brand cachet that Leica has and uses to its full potential, and beyond.


Both Nikon and Zeiss brought out new rangefinder cameras at the turn of the century. Sales were not what they expected and both were discontinued. No other camera company is going to invest the time and money to challenge Leica for their small share of the market. They’re too worried about how to survive in the age of the cell phone.



Dec 19, 2024 at 02:28 AM
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