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Archive 2024 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

1bwana1
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p.4 #1 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

brick33308 wrote:
I don't agree that every single part of the M11 has nothing to do with the M3. Well okay maybe as to parts, but not as to ethos such as size and simplicity of camera controls.

But, that was my point. Leica has changed every part in order to have thoroughly modern versions that maintain the original Leica esthetics as far as the shooting experience goes. Porsche and Rolex are very similar in that respect as well.

Dec 17, 2024 at 08:47 PM

madNbad
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p.4 #2 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

The M3 has driven M camera design for seventy years. The M5 was one of the most advanced cameras at the time but because it didn�t look or handle like an M3, users rejected it. Same with the M6 TTL and M7, the shutter speed dial turned in the wrong direction. Leica knows the traditionalist are their base and have catered to it. Leica understands that no matter how advanced the electronics are, the body it goes into needs to have the feel of a M3.

Dec 17, 2024 at 09:14 PM

ISO1600
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p.4 #3 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

There is so much good discussion in this thread, regardless of how on or off topic it is haha!

I understand why Leica is expensive, I understand their target market (it's not me!), and if I had the disposable income, I would be shooting a Q3 and/or digital M. Since I cannot come anywhere close to justifying it, I'm constantly chasing "lesser" camera systems to try and get some level of fulfillment that ultimately fades and I move on to the next thing.

The ZF is probably the closest thing to what I want, that I can actually afford. I've been looking real hard at it. Now that used prices are dropping down, it may happen. Classic styling (at the expense of realistic handling), good EVF, good AF when you need it, decent video, and works well enough with adapted manual glass, all without dropping Leica money.
Up until now, the best option that got all that would be the Fuji cameras, but as many have pointed out, the user experience simply is not the same. I've had a few different generations of Fuji X cameras; they can take excellent photos/video, the lenses are stellar, but reliable and consistent are not good ways to describe them.

I went into a Sigma FP very hopeful, but that camera is so flawed I just couldn't love it as a primary/only body.
Canon R is awful for adapting- Canon is so pig-headed in trying to force their shooters into native lenses only... I say this as I'm still shooting a Canon R7 with all native Canon R lenses lol.
Panasonic S9 is more video-focused, and even there it's hobbled to not eat into S1 and S5 sales.
Panasonic S5(II/IIX) looks very interesting as a hybrid camera, but I just have a hard time completely ditching the traditional photography brands, and the L mount is not a perfect solution for me either.

Dec 17, 2024 at 11:19 PM

1bwana1
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p.4 #4 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

Dec 18, 2024 at 03:52 AM

RustyBug
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p.4 #5 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

ISO1600 wrote:
There is so much good discussion in this thread, regardless of how on or off topic it is haha!

I understand why Leica is expensive, I understand their target market (it's not me!), and if I had the disposable income, I would be shooting a Q3 and/or digital M. Since I cannot come anywhere close to justifying it, I'm constantly chasing "lesser" camera systems to try and get some level of fulfillment that ultimately fades and I move on to the next thing.

The ZF is probably the closest thing to what I want, that I can actually afford. I've been looking...Show more →

I cut my teeth on a Yashica rangefinder, then got a techno-marvel Canon A-1 while visiting Hong Kong (Kowloon), circa '83. A few years later, I went back to something much simpler in the Nikon FE (which I still have), so I can appreciate the draw to the ZF.

To Steve's point ... where there's a will, there's a way (M240 or ME, etc. also). Rather than looking for solutions of how NOT to shoot the M ... I think anyone who is considering a lean away from the techno-marvel toward the simpler interactive experience OWES it themselves to experience the M. It may or may not be all things, to all folks. But, to deprive oneself of the experience is a missed opportunity, imo.

Granted ... the matter of how / when will vary for folks, but I highly recommend exploring the M. I'm quite certain there are Leica M's available to be explored (demo / rent / beg / buy / borrow) in Japan. Don't let "sour grapes" keep you "looking away". Find a ladder, and grab some grapes. It might take a minute to seek out "non-committal" opportunities ... if you aren't ready to dive in. But, after getting your hands on one, then when you pick up the ZF (et al), you'll have the experience of the M to reference against. Otherwise, you're only "guessing" how they might compare for you. The tactile experience of the mechanical shutter release (vs. today's electronic releases) ... you gotta feel it, to understand it.

But, the only way you'll understand how well it suits your palette is to take a bite.

Dec 18, 2024 at 09:55 AM

1bwana1
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p.4 #6 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

RustyBug wrote:
I cut my teeth on a Yashica rangefinder, then got a techno-marvel Canon A-1 while visiting Hong Kong (Kowloon), circa '83. A few years later, I went back to something much simpler in the Nikon FE (which I still have), so I can appreciate the draw to the ZF.

To Steve's point ... where there's a will, there's a way (M240 or ME, etc. also). Rather than looking for solutions of how NOT to shoot the M ... I think anyone who is considering a lean away from the techno-marvel toward the simpler interactive experience OWES it themselves to experience the...Show more →

Keep in mind that every Leica Store Worldwide (company owned stores) will loan you an M body and lens to go out and shoot for a few hours free. Imagine you are on a visit to NYC, London, Paris, Rome, or some other amazing street shooting destination and you want to spend an afternoon with a Leica. You can do that free. Or, just go to your nearest city that has a Leica Store. I am not aware of any other brand that does this. So, there is no barrier to getting one to try out. Just call ahead to make a reservation.

Dec 18, 2024 at 10:49 AM

brick33308
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p.4 #7 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

1bwana1 wrote:
Keep in mind that every Leica Store Worldwide (company owned stores) will loan you an M body and lens to go out and shoot for a few hours free. Imagine you are on a visit to NYC, London, Paris, Rome, or some other amazing street shooting destination and you want to spend an afternoon with a Leica. You can do that free. Or, just go to your nearest city that has a Leica Store. I am not aware of any other brand that does this. So, there is no barrier to getting one to try out. Just call ahead to...Show more →

Good luck with that - that's like going to a puppy breeder just to "look" at puppies. Once you hold one, no way are you walking out of that house without one of them

Dec 18, 2024 at 12:46 PM

brick33308
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p.4 #8 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

Dec 18, 2024 at 12:49 PM

rscheffler
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p.4 #9 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

IMO the Leica stores are one of the best things they did to help the brand survive. I've so far always had a good experience at whichever one I have visited on travels (so far only in US and Germany). They've helped with service related issues, trying out various lenses, kicking tires, etc. One of the guys in LA outright said take as much time as you want and buy wherever you want because it's still a sale for Leica in the end. Granted, the LA store is corporate run/owned, but not all are, AFAIK.

Anyway, this serves Leica much better than sharing shelf space in a potentially cluttered camera store with staff likely unversed in the Leica line and apt to steer customers over to systems they either understand better, like better or get better spiffs/commissions from... For many of the higher end customer Leica pursues, the traditional camera store experience is probably not enjoyable. It's kind of like going to a low-mid range car dealership to haggle.

Edited on Dec 18, 2024 at 12:58 PM · View previous versions

Dec 18, 2024 at 12:56 PM

DonaldM
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p.4 #10 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

Leica is so expensive while:
1. They use top notch materials
2. Partly those materials are made specifically for them
3. Partly they have to be bought in from Panasonic
4. They have their machines specifically build for them
5. German wages don�t also help
6. They (can) address a specific market segment of well to do photographers

They have currently two lines of lenses (M and SL), and maybe the S line is still to come, which would make three lines for a relatively small company. Plus the Q line of cameras and lenses.
Another line with small AF lenses (M or SL) would be probably very stressful. They already have too few competent people to manage it all: R&D, Sales, Production and After Sales Service.

On the long term they have to find ways for their target customers that are not too easy to copy and not too difficult to make and add to their current market position. Lenses are Leica�s perceived unique strength and the M camera of course.
With computerised lens development and China�s strength in copying and improving lenses and possibly cameras the position of Leica will never be certain on the long run. People tend to get the quite excellent copies for rather less money and only the happy few can afford the original, be it M or SL. Even Leica make already use of rebuilt copies of Sigma and Panasonic.

As long as people keep on in believing the perceived unique quality and are willing to pay the prices Leica is safe. But if this group of people is large enough for Leica to survive only time will tell. Until now they did well, with some dips, as the only surviving and very profitable European/German camera brand.

Dec 18, 2024 at 12:56 PM

Desmolicious
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p.4 #11 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

rscheffler wrote:
IMO the Leica stores are one of the best things they did to help the brand survive. I've so far always had a good experience at whichever one I have visited on travels (so far only in US and Germany). They've helped with service related issues, trying out various lenses, kicking tires, etc. One of the guys in LA outright said take as much time as you want and buy wherever you want because it's still a sale for Leica in the end. Granted, the LA store is corporate run/owned, but not all are, AFAIK.

Anyway, this serves Leica much...Show more →

The Leica stores are fantastic, and all the people I have met there have been super nice.

The Los Angeles one has a gallery upstairs, really worth the visit.

Dec 18, 2024 at 01:12 PM

1bwana1
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p.4 #12 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

brick33308 wrote:
I hope you're not looking for anyone here to tell you "wise choice, save your money, don't get the Leica when you can get the ZF"

My way of justifying my Leica purchases is asking myself: if I buy that gear today, then fast forward to the end of my life, will that purchase have changed anything in my life versus having not bought it? The answer is always no. As someone else said, where there's a will there's a way. The enjoyment you get from photography in general and gear that you lust for specifically is priceless.

I have shot the Zf, and I regularly shoot with some friends that own one for the very same reason of looking for an inexpensive way to get to the Leica experience. Trust me, as nice a camera that the Zf is, it is not close to the Leica experience. One of these friends bought an M, the other a Q3-43. Both have basically stopped shooting with their Zfs and are looking to sell them.

If Leica intrigues you, save the money, and try that first. I tried many ways to get close, but it never worked out.

Dec 18, 2024 at 01:17 PM

bjhurley
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p.4 #13 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

1bwana1 wrote:
If Leica intrigues you, save the money, and try that first. I tried many ways to get close, but it never worked out.

I definitely agree that trying one at a Leica dealer is a good idea. I was intrigued by Leica for years but never tried one until last year and realized that for digital, at least, I'm much happier with my Sony (and I'd be happier still with a Zf for the better manual focusing aids). I have a film Leica and enjoy using it, but it's not my favorite film camera either. Whether you take to Leica depends on the kinds of photography you do and your specific needs.

Dec 18, 2024 at 01:25 PM

rscheffler
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p.4 #14 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

DonaldM wrote:
Leica is so expensive while:
1. They use top notch materials
2. Partly those materials are made specifically for them
3. Partly they have to be bought in from Panasonic
4. They have their machines specifically build for them
5. German wages don�t also help
6. They (can) address a specific market segment of well to do photographers

They have currently two lines of lenses (M and SL), and maybe the S line is still to come, which would make three lines for a relatively small company. Plus the Q line of cameras and lenses.
Another line with small AF lenses (M or SL) would be probably...Show more →

There are apparently enough people who want to pay for something perceived as exclusive. Not a revelation of course, considering the proliferation of luxury brands. These people want to pay more because it means most others won't buy it.

I think Leica is somewhat unique in the photo world in that they have a product line such as the M that is unique and of true interest to photographers purely based on photographic merit. Meanwhile they have also cultivated the Leica brand to cater to people who want high-priced, elitist photography 'lifestyle' items. Naturally there is tension between these two groups that we see somewhat here in the discussion. From the 'real photographer' point of view, the efforts Leica puts towards the 'lifestyle' group seem like a waste and an embarrassment. But the two need each other. The 'real photographer' group needs the 'lifestyle' people to keep spending the $$$$ to keep Leica rolling and to keep pumping product in to the second hand market at more attainable prices for 'mere mortals' photographers. The 'lifesytyle' people need the credibility 'real photographers' working with Leica gear contribute to the legitimacy and reputation of the Leica brand; it's proof there is real photographic substance under the Leica hood. It's high quality photographic equipment and not just a smoke and mirrors puffery money grab.

Sure, the 'real photographers' grumble about paying a huge exclusivity premium that keeps the collectors/lifestyle people happy, but YOLO and there's nothing else like it (M) available. So if you want it, you suck it up, pay the cost of entry and move on.

If Cosina were to release a digital Bessa. Or more likely, one of the Chinese companies like LLL were to release a retro M3 digital, for example, at ~$3K, it would probably attract a lot of people who were just sitting on the sidelines and not already Leica owners. Meaning, Leica wouldn't have sold to them anyway. Chances are, once someone is in the digital rangefinder realm, and if it's with a non-Leica hypothetical camera and they're using it with VM, ZM and other non-Leica glass, if they persist, they're going to get that 'I should try Leica to see what the fuss is about' itch. As we all know, it's a slippery slope that leads directly to Leica.

This would keep the ball rolling and feeding the machine, which would continue to benefit Leica directly and indirectly. Could it be a win-win for Leica either way, with or without competition at the low end? I'd worry more about Leica if somehow a brand swept in and was competitive with them directly at the high end.

Dec 18, 2024 at 01:32 PM

1bwana1
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p.4 #15 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

bjhurley wrote:
I definitely agree that trying one at a Leica dealer is a good idea. I was intrigued by Leica for years but never tried one until last year and realized that for digital, at least, I'm much happier with my Sony (and I'd be happier still with a Zf for the better manual focusing aids). I have a film Leica and enjoy using it, but it's not my favorite film camera either. Whether you take to Leica depends on the kinds of photography you do and your specific needs.

Agree, Leica is not for everyone, maybe even most. Try before you buy!

Dec 18, 2024 at 01:32 PM

rscheffler
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p.4 #16 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

rscheffler wrote:
IMO the Leica stores are one of the best things they did to help the brand survive. I've so far always had a good experience at whichever one I have visited on travels (so far only in US and Germany). They've helped with service related issues, trying out various lenses, kicking tires, etc. One of the guys in LA outright said take as much time as you want and buy wherever you want because it's still a sale for Leica in the end. Granted, the LA store is corporate run/owned, but not all are, AFAIK.

Anyway, this serves Leica much...Show more →
Desmolicious wrote:
The Leica stores are fantastic, and all the people I have met there have been super nice.

The Los Angeles one has a gallery upstairs, really worth the visit.

I've only been to the LA store a few times and on one of those random weekday visits, Nick Ut was upstairs in the gallery section chatting with whoever was there.

That said, I have read complaints about snooty staff at some of the stores, perhaps more so in Asia?

Dec 18, 2024 at 01:34 PM

1bwana1
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p.4 #17 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

rscheffler wrote:
That said, I have read complaints about snooty staff at some of the stores, perhaps more so in Asia?

I have been to Leica Stores in many Countries, and a few Cities here in the U.S.. Always warmly welcomed, and friendly knowledgeable staff.

Dec 18, 2024 at 01:48 PM

johnvanr
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p.4 #18 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

1bwana1 wrote:
I have been to Leica Stores in many Countries, and a few Cities here in the U.S.. Always warmly welcomed, and friendly knowledgeable staff.

Only been in the Amsterdam store. Do not recommend.

Dec 18, 2024 at 02:41 PM

johnvanr
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p.4 #19 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

brick33308 wrote:
I hope you're not looking for anyone here to tell you "wise choice, save your money, don't get the Leica when you can get the ZF"

My way of justifying my Leica purchases is asking myself: if I buy that gear today, then fast forward to the end of my life, will that purchase have changed anything in my life versus having not bought it? The answer is always no. As someone else said, where there's a will there's a way. The enjoyment you get from photography in general and gear that you lust for specifically is priceless.

My experience and feelings don�t match yours. I have a M11 and I�m trying out a Zf. My feelings for the Leica aren�t so strong that I cannot imagine getting rid of it. The camera I have that I like the most just holding it, is actually my Olympus OM-1. Fits me like a glove. I�ve tried Leica M in the film days and ditched it. I like its focus on what matters, but don�t buy the rest of the mystique. Actually, this talk of being top-notch and having top build quality, while we all know about its weaknesses actually annoys me. I�ve given up on BMW for similar reasons, not to speak of Boss suits. All German brands that don�t live up to the hype.

Dec 18, 2024 at 02:53 PM

formula4speed
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p.4 #20 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

My used M-240 cost me about what a mid-range Sony body costs, and I just treat it like a fixed lens camera with a Voigtlander 50mm. I get to pretend to be a real photographer without going broke and I honestly don't feel any strong desire to upgrade to a newer camera.

Dec 18, 2024 at 02:57 PM

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