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Archive 2024 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

  
 
madNbad
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p.12 #1 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


Much of the appeal of a M body is its size. After the M5, Leica went back to the traditional size body. The M240 was a digital version of the M5. A lot of good ideas and trying to expand the M cameras versatility. The M10 loops back around to a traditional size body.
I can understand IBIS in cameras designed for much longer focal lengths that lenses normally used with a Leica M. There are plenty of fast lenses in the 21 to 90mm range. With the latest M's ability to use high ISO it doesn't seem that IBIS would be a priority.
Kent is right that IBIS in a M240 size body is feasible. It would be interesting to see the reaction from Leica buyers.



Dec 30, 2024 at 08:47 PM
RustyBug
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p.12 #2 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


madNbad wrote:
Much of the appeal of a M body is its size. After the M5, Leica went back to the traditional size body. The M240 was a digital version of the M5. A lot of good ideas and trying to expand the M cameras versatility. The M10 loops back around to a traditional size body.
I can understand IBIS in cameras designed for much longer focal lengths that lenses normally used with a Leica M. There are plenty of fast lenses in the 21 to 90mm range. With the latest M's ability to use high ISO it doesn't seem that IBIS would
...Show more

+1 that the lenses for the M's ... and today's ISO capabilities ... make IBIS in an M, well, let's just say it's not a "must have" for most seasoned M shooters. It's not like you're shooting a 500/5.6 or a 100-400 5-6.3 on an M. That's what I've got my SL2-S for to pair with my Siggy 500/5.6. The M is a "built for purpose" camera. Not a camera that does everything that other cameras do. I think Leica is very keen to understanding what changes impact that "built for purpose" ethos ... never trying to make it be everything, to everyone.

I mean, I was just shooting INDOOR handball with the M10R ... ummm, without IBIS.

Ironically, there was a shooter there with a Canon and 24-70. He couldn't get any isolation shots ... just everything set to 24mm and a wide view of the court. You could see his brain trying to figure out how I was working it with Leica / M glass. Kinda neat to see him "scratchin' his head" as he kept looking at my setup. He never asked, though ...

I did switch out to my SL2-S (24MP BSI) with M glass on the last day. I wanted to raise the ISO even more to get some higher SS speeds. The games picked up speed, as the tournament progressed. Too fast for AF. I know, sounds kinda bass-ackwards, huh.





Kent Southers 2024

  LEICA M10-R    Summicron-M 1:2/35 ASPH. lens    35mm    f/4.8    1/350s    1600 ISO    +0.3 EV  





Kent Southers 2024

  LEICA M10-R    Summicron-M 1:2/35 ASPH. lens    35mm    f/5.6    1/350s    1600 ISO    +0.3 EV  





Kent Southers 2024

  LEICA M10-R    Summicron-M 1:2/35 ASPH. lens    35mm    f/4.8    1/350s    1600 ISO    +0.3 EV  



Edited on Dec 30, 2024 at 10:35 PM · View previous versions



Dec 30, 2024 at 10:07 PM
RexGig0
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p.12 #3 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


The size of the M Type 240/246/262 does not bother me. I started with a new Leica M10 in April 2018, but after a mishap necessitated its return to Leica USA in NJ, for repair, I bought a pre-owned M Type 246 Monochrom, by mid-summer 2018. Having been using semi-pro and pro DSLR cameras, before adding the M system, all Leica M cameras seemed compact. The shape of integral thumb rest area usually better enables me to tell which M camera I am holding, rather than the fore-and-aft thickness.

I have no hard and fast red line, in determining which changes would compel me to reject buying a newer M camera. Budget would be my chief constraint. I know that I prefer to look though optical glass, while shooting.




Dec 30, 2024 at 10:12 PM
Desmolicious
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p.12 #4 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


RustyBug wrote:
+1 that the lenses for the M's ... and today's ISO capabilities ... make IBIS in an M, well, let's just say it's not a "must have" for most seasoned M shooters. It's not like you're shooting a 500/5.6 or a 100-400 5-6.3 on an M. That's what I've got my SL2-S for to pair with my Siggy 500/5.6. The M is a "built for purpose" camera. Not a camera that does everything that other cameras do. I think Leica is very keen to understanding what changes impact that "built for purpose" ethos ... never trying to make it be
...Show more

First pic is sweet.



Dec 30, 2024 at 10:51 PM
1bwana1
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p.12 #5 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


RustyBug wrote:
+1 that the lenses for the M's ... and today's ISO capabilities ... make IBIS in an M, well, let's just say it's not a "must have" for most seasoned M shooters. It's not like you're shooting a 500/5.6 or a 100-400 5-6.3 on an M. That's what I've got my SL2-S for to pair with my Siggy 500/5.6. The M is a "built for purpose" camera. Not a camera that does everything that other cameras do. I think Leica is very keen to understanding what changes impact that "built for purpose" ethos ... never trying to make it be
...Show more


True, we are shooting mostly 50mm and under focal lengths. Now that I had my brain surgery that fixed my shaky hands it is less important for me too.



Dec 30, 2024 at 11:04 PM
RustyBug
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p.12 #6 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


Desmolicious wrote:
First pic is sweet.


Thanks, Huss.
My first time shooting indoors (no sunlight, small glass door). We've got half walls at the park (3-wall), so my angles are much easier to get, outside. Sunlight is kinda nice, too.

Here's another. I'd like to get out to VB and shoot out there one day, too.
Not sure when that might be, but I've got some folks out here that make the trip to play VB from time to time. I might tag along someday.




  LEICA M10-R    Summicron-M 1:2/35 ASPH. lens    35mm    f/2.4    1/350s    1600 ISO    +0.3 EV  




Dec 31, 2024 at 12:01 AM
flash
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p.12 #7 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


Sports photography isn’t really the *need* area for image stabilisation. You’re generally more concerned with subject movement and speed. It’s nice for framing but not really for the image. Same for a lot of wildlife. I start at 1/500 for sport and wildlife, generally.

For me IS is for dragging the shutter. For low light street photography. Handheld landscapes and architecture. Travel photography.

It’s one of the big reasons I use the SL3 over the M11. And more so the X2D over either. When you can reliably handhold 100MP at close to 1/2 a second a whole bunch of creative possibilities open up. Pushing the camera against a tree and I’m working in multiple seconds easily.

I’d give up the rear screen on an M happily if I could have IBIS.

Gordon



Dec 31, 2024 at 12:58 AM
Desmolicious
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p.12 #8 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


RustyBug wrote:
Thanks, Huss.
My first time shooting indoors (no sunlight, small glass door). We've got half walls at the park (3-wall), so my angles are much easier to get, outside. Sunlight is kinda nice, too.

Here's another. I'd like to get out to VB and shoot out there one day, too.
Not sure when that might be, but I've got some folks out here that make the trip to play VB from time to time. I might tag along someday.


That is a great shot! Love the composition.



Dec 31, 2024 at 02:43 AM
johnvanr
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p.12 #9 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


RexGig0 wrote:
The size of the M Type 240/246/262 does not bother me. I started with a new Leica M10 in April 2018, but after a mishap necessitated its return to Leica USA in NJ, for repair, I bought a pre-owned M Type 246 Monochrom, by mid-summer 2018. Having been using semi-pro and pro DSLR cameras, before adding the M system, all Leica M cameras seemed compact. The shape of integral thumb rest area usually better enables me to tell which M camera I am holding, rather than the fore-and-aft thickness.

I have no hard and fast red line, in determining which
...Show more

I’m the opposite on size. I didn’t seriously consider a digital M until the M10. The previous generations were too fat for me to have any attraction.



Dec 31, 2024 at 03:25 AM
catacore
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p.12 #10 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


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Edited on Jan 13, 2025 at 07:37 AM · View previous versions



Dec 31, 2024 at 04:31 AM
catacore
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p.12 #11 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


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Edited on Jan 13, 2025 at 07:36 AM · View previous versions



Dec 31, 2024 at 04:34 AM
RustyBug
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p.12 #12 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


The point was ... a lot of handheld shooting can be done without IBIS ... but, it generally means you will need to raise the ISO, rather than drag the shutter.

I dig on IBIS as much as the next guy for what it can do for you. I mean, really 500/5.6 at 1/10s is stupid nice.
But, my point about the M having IBIS is that where IBIS is ABSENT, the ISO capabilities still afford the shooter a lot of options to still "capture the moment". The ethos of the being creative with IBIS and dragging the shutter is certain viable, and I can / have / will do so past / present / future.

BUT, when it comes to the choice between a BIGGER body vs. IBIS ... there will be some who will accept the smaller body in exchange for the lack of IBIS. The salient point being, I can't make a bigger body with IBIS smaller (i.e. no workaround for size, once you've sized it up). However, I can raise the ISO as an alternative workaround, instead of lowering the SS ... and still retain the smaller form factor that a non-IBIS body allows.

Whether or not the ethos of the M ... which includes its form factor will embrace IBIS, is yet to be seen. This isn't a point about IBIS. This is a point about the decision process > alternatives to the shooter that the designers / engineers of the M will have to undertake, in their decision making.

And, for those who do want a slower shutter speed without IBIS, there is this thing called a tripod. So, that presents a workaround too. Now, I know there'll be folks who jump on the bandwagon of street and say that a tripod is not an option for the way they work. Maybe not. But, if the way they work won't allow for a tripod ... how many of those are honestly shooting at IBIS oriented speeds of 1sec, and have such a critical shot that they can't raise the ISO. Don't get me wrong ... I can totally dig on the convenience of IBIS. The question isn't whether or not I like or don't like, need or don't need IBIS.

The question becomes whether or not Leica feels that the requisite size differential to engineer IBIS, fits into the M ethos. A size increase to the body is a one-way street, of sorts. The shooter has no alternative. The lack of IBIS, the shooter still has ISO / tripod as options. What one can do with IBIS, is indeed meritable. But, in the similar vein of Leica M engineers regarding where they land readout speed for IQ performance and forego a faster readout capability (hence rolling shutter potential) ... what happens when you mix / match IBIS and one second exposures with readout speeds that are slow for moving subjects. So, even when you put IBIS in ... it isn't the panacea to everything, as it is a piece of the puzzle with readout speeds, too.

In the case of the SL2-S, the readout speed is faster. Flash's X2D has a fairly slow readout speed ... and as the seasoned shooter that he is, likely understands when / where / how / why to contend with it. That can be either conservatively, or creatively.

The question the engineer's will be looking at is not only the size vs. IBIS, but also the benefits of IBIS vs. ISO / SS approach as it pertains to readout speeds. Sometimes folks want the manufacturer to bend to their will. Sometimes the manufacturer shapes things so the user will bend the other way. In the case of the M ethos, Leica has always been keen to how they merge their will with the will of the masses. Imo, it's a fair statement to suggest that Leica hasn't always done what folks clamor for. They have their reasons. And, those reasons may / may not align with the desires for use that others have.

Does Leica think that that IBIS is something they want in the M ... I dunno. I'm just saying that the "thinking" behind what Leica is deciding may include a recognition of philosophical use case vs. existing alternatives. And, to a point ... ISO offers an alternative to IBIS ... while shooting in the ethos of Leica's goals for the small form factor, that still provides superior IQ (think, readout speed decisions). More to the puzzle for whether or not Leica will incorporate IBIS than folks might think at first blush.

Eng #1: "Hey, let's put IBIS in the M. People will love it."
Eng #2: "No, the size will be too big."
Eng #1: "They'll get used to it."
Eng #2: "But, that's going the other direction, away from our mission of combining smallest and best."
Eng #1: "But, it's only a little, "less small"."
Eng #2: "If we do that, then folks will incur rolling shutter effects at such slow SS speeds."
Eng #1: "Then we increase readout speed."
Eng #2: "And decrease IQ, I don't think so."
Eng #1: "Then we program the readout to drop down from 14 bit to 12 bit (increasing readout speed), when using IBIS."
Eng #2: "Maybe ... a little bigger AND a part-time reduction in IQ."
Eng #2: "Still not sure. Let's ask Peter, what he thinks."



I don't think we have to look too far away (i.e. Sony, etc.) to see the number of variants of readout speeds / IQ / rolling shutter matrix. Deciding where to land the M as Leica's flagship (yes, they have the SL / Q series, too for options) ... they won't take this lightly. It won't be like there's a Sony A7R, A7S, A7C, A number of variants for the M. They have to land it in ONE place ... not four. So, there will be decisions to be made that look at the intertwining pieces of the puzzle. Much more so than the scope / breadth of the forum, I'd imagine.

Time will tell.




Dec 31, 2024 at 08:52 AM
airfrogusmc
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p.12 #13 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


I'm sure that Leica understands what keeps them different than all the others out there. And if they start packing all the gadgets on their M they will loose those that go there because they don't have all the stuff the others have. The M 11 has to much stuff for me. I have no desire to upgrade from my M 10s and M 10 mono.


Dec 31, 2024 at 10:18 AM
raizans
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p.12 #14 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


I doubt we’ll get IBIS until it can fit into the M10/M11 body thickness.


Dec 31, 2024 at 10:25 AM
1bwana1
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p.12 #15 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


In a period of relatively flat sensor development as far as Dynamic Range is concerned, IBIS is a way to increase image quality in many circumstances by enabling images to be shot at lower ISOs. Leica's focus is on increasing image quality in the M system. So IBIS may be the low hanging fruit. The question remains whether it can be fit into a form factor that is in keeping with the M esthetics.

Maybe the answer will be some kind of digital IBIS implementation similar to what has been implemented in video stabilization systems. Whatever form it takes, if it improves image quality I am interested. I know I benefit from stabilization in other systems that have it well implemented.

Stabilization is not make of break for me. Neither is a hybrid EVF for that matter. I am very happy with my user experience with the M10 and M11 series of cameras. I have a difficult time envisioning what features would improve this. I guess that is why such speculations about EVFs and Stabilization exist. However, if improvements are made that would enhance my user experience, and deliver better image quality, I am open to an upgrade. I think this is likely true of many current Leica customers. This is the challenge that Leica must meet going forward. How to improve the camera, without diminishing the M esthetic.

Ideas that I often hear:

Hybrid EVF
Stabilization
Titling rear screen
faster sensor
Higher resolution
More digital focus aids
JPEG Emulations
Computational Features
Better Communications
Accessible Operating System for third party apps
More configurable controls

Other ideas?

maybe a better question for us is, what feature added to the next generation of M cameras would be compelling enough for you to speak with your money and upgrade?


Edited on Dec 31, 2024 at 11:58 AM · View previous versions



Dec 31, 2024 at 11:08 AM
stgrove
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p.12 #16 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


If some variant of an M11 or M12 had a 24MP sensor would not that help read out speeds?


Dec 31, 2024 at 11:18 AM
RustyBug
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p.12 #17 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


stgrove wrote:
If some variant of an M11 or M12 had a 24MP sensor would not that help read out speeds?


That takes us back to an M10 (although, BSI would be a bump).
Put in IBIS, and that puts us back to the size of the M240 (also 24MP), but with a BSI sensor bump.

So, the answer (imo) is yes.

Can they ... vs. ... will they. Two different questions.

The first one is pretty easy to answer, I think.
The second one ... anybody's call, since it has such a tremendous subjectivity to their sense of ethos for the M.



Dec 31, 2024 at 11:26 AM
Oscarsmadness
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p.12 #18 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


I stumbled on that video the other day. I remember when James was a part of Donut Media. RIP Donut....
Entertaining video though.
I do not own a Leica, mainly because they are so expensive.



Dec 31, 2024 at 12:05 PM
madNbad
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p.12 #19 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


Leica is more about tradition than innovation. Why else would a digital M camera have a removable baseplate?


Dec 31, 2024 at 12:07 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.12 #20 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


I beleive it's even more than that madNbad. With Leica M, in my opinion, it is not including things that are not nessicary to making great photographs.

What you need is a light tight place to hold light sensitive material. A sensor or film. (A camera) and light sensitive material.

A lens to focus the light. A shutter to control the amount of time the light is allowed to make an exposure.

An aperture to control the amount of light reaching the light sensitive material.

The only other things one really needs is knowledge and experience.

Many phtogrpahers still shoot with 8X10 view cameras and all manual medium and 135 format cameras that are fully manual. Many photogrpahers, like me, prefer something without all the stuff that many photogrpaers can't function without. For us there are few options and Leica M is one of those options.



Dec 31, 2024 at 12:32 PM
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