RustyBug wrote:
If the jump to M11 is too far ... there's always the M10-R, an M10 or go on the wild side and get an M246 (M240 - Monochrome), depending on the (think tiers) level of spend someone is comfortable with. Other variant possibilities, too ... just pointing out that there's "something" for different budgets.
If I considered an upgrade and with cost not being an issue, I would opt for the M10-R instead of the M11. Mainly due to the fact that the M11 renders too purple for my taste - the M10-R also never had any potential manufacturing faults.
dalegaspi wrote:
i've been a user of M's since the Leica M6-TTL and have owned M8, M9 and M240 ..i have the M11 since shortly after launch and i honestly don't particularly love the shutter action since it's now ...just like any other mirrorless camera which measures exposure from sensor and therefore has to close it first before making an actual exposure and the sound/feedback feels "wrong" and i still haven't gotten used to it. this could be mitigated if the camera has EFCS but it has been speculated that its shutter design (just like the SL series) cannot support EFCS otherwise we would have gotten a firmware update already.
and call me a luddite but i very much prefer the pre-M11's removable bottom to change battery and SD card. the M11 mechanism while convenient feels cheap and fragile with that plastic battery cover and the way SD card is slotted in the area where you can see the battery compartment.
i also particularly annoyed that i needed to go with a silver finish to get the brass body (well, at least the top anyway) because i normally buy black finish which is made of aluminum...and can't help but roll my eyes whenever a YouTuber/reviewer mentions this talking point about the black being "lighter" by some ridiculously small relatively-insignificant amount. the newer silver lenses that used to be brass are also now anodized aluminum...i don't like where this is going because as long time users will point out that having brass material now becomes a reason for Leica to only use them exclusively in special edition cameras in the future....Show more →
OK you are a Luddite.
Looks like Leica is moving away from your preferences and you will need to pony up for the more expensive special additions. The good news is that you still have the choice to do that.
Looks like Leica is moving away from your preferences and you will need to pony up for the more expensive special additions. The good news is that you still have the choice to do that.
Is having a brass top plate an option? I mean, "brassing" looks best when it's ... ummm, uhh, ummm ... oh yeah, brass.
I remember an "old timer", long ago ... telling me to look for bodies that were nicely brassed, but no dings. The take away was that it was a well-loved (i.e. used reliably and extensively), and well cared for (no dings / damage). Of course, with today's anodized aluminum, and high-tech paint ... the concept of meaningful brassing is about to be lost to history and the memories of old farts.
That, and the fact that ... unlike film cameras where you can keep the same body for years / decades ... digital bodies get turned over far faster than film cameras, not really ample time for "good brassing" to occur. At least, I haven't seen any good brassing for quite a while (and fake repaint jobs, don't count).
Or someone who complains a lot about things that have nothing to do with shooting pictures. Complaining about the SD card in the same compartment as the battery? WTF?
I'm a much longer user than he is, have used more M variants and I'm glad they got rid of the infamous removable bottom plate, that the M11 is lighter and that the shutter is quieter than a film M, even the M5 and M7 I still use, own and love.
But in the end, it is just a tool to create pictures.
RustyBug wrote:
Is having a brass top plate an option? I mean, "brassing" looks best when it's ... ummm, uhh, ummm ... oh yeah, brass.
I remember an "old timer", long ago ... telling me to look for bodies that were nicely brassed, but no dings. The take away was that it was a well-loved (i.e. used reliably and extensively), and well cared for (no dings / damage). Of course, with today's anodized aluminum, and high-tech paint ... the concept of meaningful brassing is about to be lost to history and the memories of old farts.
That, and the fact that ... unlike film cameras where you can keep the same body for years / decades ... digital bodies get turned over far faster than film cameras, not really ample time for "good brassing" to occur. At least, I haven't seen any good brassing for quite a while (and fake repaint jobs, don't count)....Show more →
Yes, it is but on the Back Paint editions it appears. I agree, nothing replaces the natural brassing that takes place from years of use.
It looks like Leica has decided that this is a premium finish option, but it is available.
1bwana1 wrote:
Yes, it is but on the Back Paint editions it appears. I agree, nothing replaces the natural brassing that takes place from years of use.
It looks like Leica has decided that this is a premium finish option, but it is available.
Gotcha ... Black Paint version. Too much premium for me. And, since it's got a "collectors" tag to it, what's the likelihood that very many folks are actually gonna use it as a daily carry for years to get the brassing patina. Almost antithetical, of sorts ... i.e. heavy use wore off the paint. But, the Black Paint edition looks like its lacquered to last for eons.
pmeheut wrote:
Or someone who complains a lot about things that have nothing to do with shooting pictures. Complaining about the SD card in the same compartment as the battery? WTF?
I'm a much longer user than he is, have used more M variants and I'm glad they got rid of the infamous removable bottom plate, that the M11 is lighter and that the shutter is quieter than a film M, even the M5 and M7 I still use, own and love.
But in the end, it is just a tool to create pictures.
This guy is much more into gear than photography. But he seems to not be very "self aware" in that regard.
I am with you on the bottom plate design. I currently own an M11, M10-M, and M10-P. I much prefer the M11 way of handling the battery and card slot. On the M10(x) cameras I am forced to go through the PIA removal of the bottom plate to download my images, and charge the battery. On the M11 I never have to remove either the SD Card or battery. Everything through USB-C. The good news is that we can all have mostly what we like with a few small compromises.
RustyBug wrote:
Gotcha ... Black Paint version. Too much premium for me. And, since it's got a "collectors" tag to it, what's the likelihood that very many folks are actually gonna use it as a daily carry for years to get the brassing patina.
I get what you mean Rusty. I am not one to buy style either. My cameras are just tools as you say. But if it is important to you, you gotta pay up it seems.
1bwana1 wrote:
I get what you mean Rusty. I am not one to buy style either. My cameras are just tools as you say. But if it is important to you, you gotta pay up it seems.
Preference, yes ... important, no.
Although, I really don't like the high gloss black paint. I just dig on brass. Both for its aesthetic ... but, also for its classic metallurgy as a soft metal (i.e. designed to absorb, dissipate and disseminate impact vs. transmit force into more sensitive interior components).
Although, with today's sensors (vs. film), the issue of heat buildup ... and heat dissipation is an engineering concern. Not sure how much that plays into Leica's decision to move away from brass to other materials for legitimate engineering reasons. The weight differential may just be a "side benefit" of using materials that make better heat dissipating sinks.
Although, for marketing purposes, I'm sure more folks understand "it's lighter", than better heat dissipation. Good engineering is rarely a strong marketing proposition, even though it often is a reason for change ... and costs ... that most folks never really understand / appreciate. Although, the video guys might appreciate the longer video times, as a benefit of better heat dissipation.
I can't say for sure that this is the case ... but, I do wonder.
I'm sure its more fodder for folks to just say it's Leica "jackin' with us". Surely, engineering wouldn't have anything to do with it. I mean, not from a German company, anyway.
raizans wrote:
Check it out! I typed up a spreadsheet of historical camera prices. I plugged in a formula for automatically calculating the price adjusted for inflation.
Doesn't this illustrate that current digital M-body pricing is significantly higher than average? E.g. the M11 has an MSRP of $8995 today. The M11-P is $9195.
Sure one can rebute that those are digital bodies, and we should be looking at the 2022 M6 reissue, but film bodies are arguably a niche in 2024.
Steve Spencer wrote:
Or inflation was higher in Germany than region raizans used for to set the inflation rate. Inflation rates do vary substantially between regions at times. Notably over the last 25 years inflation has been very low in Japan. Part of lower Japanese prices than German prices over that period could simply be that in Japan there was much lower inflation, while in Germany the inflation was higher. I haven't looked at the numbers to see if that is true, but it wouldn't surprise me.
I just asked Chatgpt:
"Inflation in Japan (2018-2023)
Japan's inflation rate has traditionally been low compared to other major economies. For much of the last few decades, Japan experienced very low inflation or even deflation. However, since 2021, inflation in Japan has started to rise but remained relatively modest compared to many other countries.
Inflation figures for Japan (2018-2023):
2018: ~0.9%
2019: ~0.3%
2020: ~0.0% (deflationary)
2021: ~0.8%
2022: ~2.3% (starting to increase due to global factors)
2023: ~3.0% (inflation peaked, but still relatively low by international standards)
Japan's inflation in recent years has been influenced by factors like global supply chain issues, rising commodity prices, and the yen's depreciation. However, it has remained much lower than the inflation seen in many other advanced economies.
Inflation in Germany (2018-2023)
Germany, being part of the Eurozone, has seen higher inflation rates, especially after 2021. The war in Ukraine, energy price hikes, and supply chain disruptions led to significant price increases in Germany.
Inflation figures for Germany (2018-2023):
2018: ~0.9%
2019: ~0.4%
2020: ~0.4%
2021: ~3.1% (rising due to post-pandemic recovery and energy price hikes)
2022: ~8.7% (high inflation driven by energy prices and the war in Ukraine)
2023: ~6.0% (still high, but a decrease from 2022)
Germany's inflation has been significantly higher, especially in 2022 and 2023, driven by the global energy crisis, supply chain disruptions, and the impact of the war in Ukraine.
Key Differences:
Japan's inflation has remained relatively subdued, with a focus on overcoming long-term deflationary pressures, although it saw a sharp increase in 2022 and 2023.
Germany's inflation surged dramatically in 2022, largely due to the impact of the war in Ukraine, energy shortages, and global supply chain problems.
Conclusion:
Yes, inflation in Japan has generally been lower than in Germany over the past five years. While Japan saw a noticeable rise in inflation in 2022-2023, it remained far below the levels seen in Germany during the same period."
pmeheut wrote:
Or someone who complains a lot about things that have nothing to do with shooting pictures. Complaining about the SD card in the same compartment as the battery? WTF?
I'm a much longer user than he is, have used more M variants and I'm glad they got rid of the infamous removable bottom plate, that the M11 is lighter and that the shutter is quieter than a film M, even the M5 and M7 I still use, own and love.
But in the end, it is just a tool to create pictures.
i'm not sure why you have to react so negatively about my personal preference. i'm just saying to me that using the M is more of a journey, not just a "tool for taking pictures" otherwise i would not put up with using the rangefinder. i have other cameras, as well, that are regarded as tools. it's just how i use the M differently. that's all.
Looks like Leica is moving away from your preferences and you will need to pony up for the more expensive special additions. The good news is that you still have the choice to do that.
yeah with the M range i suppose i am a luddite.
"you will need to pony up for the more expensive special additions. The good news is that you still have the choice to do that."
unfortunately, that is the case. but even with the more expensive special additions of M11 it's still not really what i prefer (except for the black paint with brass top)... but hey i suppose Leica needs to push the envelope with the M range, and i respect that.
despite all my complaints. IF the future M is finally shutterless i'll probably be more accepting with whatever they try to change with the M...but hopefully they don't get rid of the analog rangefinder.
stgrove wrote:
Here is where I would say some might want to try a PIXII Max. RF, shutterless and takes M lenses. Under $5k with 128GB internal memory.
i looked at the Pixii but it's not my cup of tea; apparently its RF experience is not the same as Leica's. i'm glad it exists, though...it has some really cool features (i like the way it allows users to adjust RF relatively easily) and their dedication to a true upgradable camera is commendable.
dalegaspi wrote:
i looked at the Pixii but it's not my cup of tea; apparently its RF experience is not the same as Leica's. i'm glad it exists, though...it has some really cool features (i like the way it allows users to adjust RF relatively easily) and their dedication to a true upgradable camera is commendable.
After some study and questions, not mine either, but it is an alternative.
dalegaspi wrote:
yeah with the M range i suppose i am a luddite.
"you will need to pony up for the more expensive special additions. The good news is that you still have the choice to do that."
unfortunately, that is the case. but even with the more expensive special additions of M11 it's still not really what i prefer (except for the black paint with brass top)... but hey i suppose Leica needs to push the envelope with the M range, and i respect that.
despite all my complaints. IF the future M is finally shutterless i'll probably be more accepting with whatever they try to change with the M...but hopefully they don't get rid of the analog rangefinder....Show more →
I will be surprised if future M cameras are shutterless in the near term. That would take a fast stacked sensor. It just doesn't seem the direction the M is headed. I am guess they will stay with the current 60mpx for at least another generation. Then bump the resolution, and Dynamic Range if possible, not the speed.
I don't think the M cameras will ever be completely shutterless. Don't forget that Leica has used a shutter to protect the sensor when changing lenses since the first digital M. That is unlikely to change. Digital M cameras have always been mirrorless, despite other brands claiming they came up with that, and using shutters as sensor shields.
I expect the M12 will have a dual View Finder allowing both EVF and Range Finder options with the push of a button. This was not confirmed last time I spoke with Stephan Daniel about it but the smile in his face has me convinced.
I am hopeful that we will also get IBIS but this is more speculative rather than likely at this point.
1bwana1 wrote:
I will be surprised if future M cameras are shutterless in the near term. That would take a fast stacked sensor. It just doesn't seem the direction the M is headed. I am guess they will stay with the current 60mpx for at least another generation. Then bump the resolution, and Dynamic Range if possible, not the speed.
I don't think the M cameras will ever be completely shutterless. Don't forget that Leica has used a shutter to protect the sensor when changing lenses since the first digital M. That is unlikely to change. Digital M cameras have always been mirrorless, despite other brands claiming they came up with that, and using shutters as sensor shields.
I expect the M12 will have a dual View Finder allowing both EVF and Range Finder options with the push of a button. This was not confirmed last time I spoke with Stephan Daniel about it but the smile in his face has me convinced.
I am hopeful that we will also get IBIS but this is more speculative rather than likely at this point.
Doing a bit of studying from the Horshack info on readout speeds, I noticed the M11 had the most # of bands being read (39/40), with the SL2 less (14/15) and the Q2 even less (6). Granted the difference between the M11 vs. SL2/Q2 has some diff in pixel rows, but that is a factor of .x%, while the bands being read out is a factor of 2.x% between models. The 14 Bit Hassy is around 68 bands, so it seems that there is a strong correlation between # bands being read vs. readout speed vs. DR, etc.
To that, I'd agree that the ethos for the M series is going to continue to be IQ ... not speed, so I don't thing a shutterless stacked sensor (i.e. reducing DR / IQ, etc.) is in the cards for an M series either. If speed is the desired attribute, the SL / Q models lean that way, and could get a bit quicker for readouts if you drop them to 12 bit (option). I think Leica has very distinctly engineered the way they are processing the different models to what they want them to be ... not for what they aren't (that others, i.e. some Sony models / Canon, etc. are). I think Leica has no interest in ever making readout speeds that are compromising on their sense of requisite IQ. Point being ... I'd be surprised (and I'm personally hoping not) if they went with a stacked sensor.
Although, as I'm looking forward to the announcement of the SL3-S ... IF they were going to incorporate a stacked sensor, that's a case use where they might go "fit for purpose". Personally, I'm hoping it retains the deep well approach of the SL2, just a few more pixels (rather than speed vs. IQ).
As to IBIS ... that would add bulk to the body, so that one's kinda "on the fence" for an M. I think folks would like the dual EVF / RF combo more than a larger body. Now, if the engineering is needed to be a smidge bigger for BOTH, I think folks might be okay with that. Just not sure the body thickness of the current SL (accommodating IBIS) is a keen attractor for M users. But, time will tell.
RustyBug wrote:
Doing a bit of studying from the Horshack info on readout speeds, I noticed the M11 had the most # of bands being read (39/40), with the SL2 less (14/15) and the Q2 even less (6). Granted the difference between the M11 vs. SL2/Q2 has some diff in pixel rows, but that is a factor of .x%, while the bands being read out is a factor of 2.x% between models. The 14 Bit Hassy is around 68 bands, so it seems that there is a strong correlation between # bands being read vs. DR, etc.
To that, I'd agree that the ethos for the M series is going to continue to be IQ ... not speed, so I don't thing a shutterless stacked sensor (i.e. reducing DR / IQ, etc.) is in the cards for an M series either.
As to IBIS ... that would add bulk to the body, so that one's kinda "on the fence" for an M. I think folks would like the dual EVF / RF combo more than a larger body. Now, if the engineering is needed to be a smidge bigger for BOTH, I think folks might be okay with that. Just not sure the body thickness of the current SL (accommodating IBIS) is a keen attractor for M users. But, time will tell....Show more →
I would not be a customer of the M body came even close the SL body in size. Deal killer for me.
1bwana1 wrote:
I would not be a customer of the M body came even close the SL body in size. Deal killer for me.
Understood.
What if the size of the M grew from M10/M11 ... back to the thickness / size of an M240 (but, with IBIS) in the M12 / M13?
I'd bet they could pull that off with recent improvements in IBIS engineering.
But, I wouldn't be holding my breath for IBIS in the same size body as the M10/M11.
