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Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!

  
 
flash
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p.10 #1 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!


Wel I'll have mine in hand tomorrow. K picked it up from Sydney for me and she flies into Perth tomorrow after I drove across the country for a bit of fun. So far 6600kms. 1 photo I'm happy with. Starting a Leica Academie trip with Nick Rains and Christian Fletcher here tomorrow.

Then I have to drive home.

Gordon



Oct 02, 2024 at 05:40 AM
RustyBug
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p.10 #2 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!


flash wrote:
Wel I'll have mine in hand tomorrow. K picked it up from Sydney for me and she flies into Perth tomorrow after I drove across the country for a bit of fun. So far 6600kms. 1 photo I'm happy with. Starting a Leica Academie trip with Nick Rains and Christian Fletcher here tomorrow.

Then I have to drive home.

Gordon


Perth ... that struck a chord. Been 40 years since I was there ('83). Looking forward to seeing what you do with the Q43 on your trip. Sounds epic.



Oct 02, 2024 at 06:54 AM
1bwana1
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p.10 #3 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!


rollei35_warton wrote:
In Ontario, there are only handful authorized Leica dealers, among which Downtown Camera and Vistek are the biggest ones.
They both called me asking if I want to pick one, I said No unless you throw in a free dual-charger and a battery.
Of course they refused.
And of course I got it from somewhere else much cheaper.
Canada just sucks.


Interesting that you bought the Q3 43 when you were so down on the D-Lux 8 because it was so closely related to Panasonic. It seems you may have ended up with a camera which also has a Panasonic lens.

https://leicarumors.com/2024/10/02/leica-q3-43-camera-additional-coverage-more-reviews-lens-patented-by-panasonic.aspx/

Not to worry though. The Panasonic Yamagata lens factory may produce the best small aspherical lens elements in the World.

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/2764178778/a-focus-on-aspherics-panasonic-lens-factory-tour






Oct 02, 2024 at 06:32 PM
tzhang4284
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p.10 #4 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!


Even if they're both designed by Panasonic, one camera has a newly designed lens on a large sensor and uses the latest available technology from Panasonic while the other is a 6 year old design with a 10 year old lens and an outdated AF system but got a facelift. It's like comparing Apples and grapes

As an aside before the back and forth start, I got my Q3 43mm a couple of days ago, would highly recommend it if you like the focal length. The image quality in my opinion is much better than when I had the Q3 28mm from my limited uses so far and significantly better rendering than something like the Fuji X100VI. 43mm f2 also provides plenty of bokeh.

I don't think it displaces my Leica M11 however my 50mm f1.4 might be looking for a new home. With this camera, I see the appeal of the SL APO lenses but don't think I would ever want to carry anything bigger than the Q3 to get that benefit.



Oct 02, 2024 at 07:03 PM
rsolti13
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p.10 #5 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!


tzhang4284 wrote:
Even if they're both designed by Panasonic, one camera has a newly designed lens on a large sensor and uses the latest available technology from Panasonic while the other is a 6 year old design with a 10 year old lens and an outdated AF system but got a facelift. It's like comparing Apples and grapes

As an aside before the back and forth start, I got my Q3 43mm a couple of days ago, would highly recommend it if you like the focal length. The image quality in my opinion is much better than when I had the Q3 28mm
...Show more

agreed, after using this Q3 43 I'm trying to figure out how to wiggle a 35 APO into my lineup



Oct 02, 2024 at 08:36 PM
1bwana1
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p.10 #6 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!




tzhang4284 wrote:
Even if they're both designed by Panasonic, one camera has a newly designed lens on a large sensor and uses the latest available technology from Panasonic while the other is a 6 year old design with a 10 year old lens and an outdated AF system but got a facelift. It's like comparing Apples and grapes

As an aside before the back and forth start, I got my Q3 43mm a couple of days ago, would highly recommend it if you like the focal length. The image quality in my opinion is much better than when I had the Q3 28mm
...Show more

Just like the lens on the 28mm Q, Leica has not changed the lens during the last ten years. Leica gives the same reason for both. They don't feel that they can improve on the original even with new technology.

But welcome to your new Leica/Panasonic hybrid it is likely a very good camera and should produce excellent images for many years.



Oct 02, 2024 at 08:56 PM
tzhang4284
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p.10 #7 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!


1bwana1 wrote:
Just like the lens on the 28mm Q, Leica has not changed the lens during the last ten years. Leica gives the same reason for both. They don't feel that they can improve on the original even with new technology.

But welcome to your new Leica/Panasonic hybrid it is likely a very good camera and should produce excellent images for many years.


Don't confuse marketing speak with product strategy - looking at the amount of innovation in the past 10 years, there's definitely an opportunity to improve on both lenses, it's just not Leica's strategy to do a wholesale upgrade in one cycle. And again, you neglected to acknowledge how dated the sensor and AF system is, which Leica did upgrade on the Q3 but not the D-Lux 8.



Oct 02, 2024 at 09:33 PM
1bwana1
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p.10 #8 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!




tzhang4284 wrote:
Don't confuse marketing speak with product strategy - looking at the amount of innovation in the past 10 years, there's definitely an opportunity to improve on both lenses, it's just not Leica's strategy to do a wholesale upgrade in one cycle. And again, you neglected to acknowledge how dated the sensor and AF system is, which Leica did upgrade on the Q3 but not the D-Lux 8.


Do you know that to be a fact? No, only the Leica engineers do. But something accounts for the better DR and better energy efficiency. I never owned the previous generation D-Lux models, but I am not having AF problems in the D-Lux 8. The only thing we know about that is that they didn't include dual AF modes. But there are other ways to improve AF.

None of that is really my point. It is only that there were some here who criticized the D-Lux 8 because it is manufactured by Panasonic but raved about the Q3 43 which turns out to also be partialy Panasonic. I find that somewhat humorous.





Oct 02, 2024 at 09:50 PM
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p.10 #9 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!


tzhang4284 wrote:
looking at the amount of innovation in the past 10 years, there's definitely an opportunity to improve on both lenses.


"improve" ... given how much optics is a series of quid pro quo design elements, I'd suggest that "improve" is a bit of a misnomer. They have the opportunity to make changes, but those changes always come with some form of a tradeoff. With that in mind ... if they designed it the way they wanted it, then change might "improve" one aspect, but at the expense of another. For instance, sharper, but now with different bokeh, etc. Less distortion, but reduced corner sharpness, faster or slower zone transitions, etc.

One thing about Leica's optical design (wish I could find the article of yore), is that they design to achieve a goal for a lens. With fixed lenses, I'd think this would be even more the case, rather than chasing new design iterations, once they achieved what it was they wanted to begin with.

Case in point ... the new Q 43 has been designed with a degree of distortion (and computational correction). IMO, that was totally by intent of what they wanted to achieve, and that happened to be where they landed it. I don't expect them to update the Q43 lens to something else. Their knowledge of optics is so vast, the "opportunity to improve" isn't something that I ascribe to being a condition of innovation in the past 10 years. Rather, they made design choices, to achieve their goals ... and those are likely to be something they have no desire to change ... because they got it where they wanted it in their original iteration.

My .02 on it is that there is a difference between not making a change for the sake of change vs. not making a design change because you got it exactly where you wanted it (knowing that other changes could shift the undesirable tradeoffs), for a given size / performance.

I took a look at the Sigma 40 Art recently (the size of it is monstrous), and the size of the Q43 is vastly smaller. The choices to achieve the form factor that Leica desired is a key aspect of things when they desire a smaller form factor (Q / M / D-Lux / etc.). Developing their goals for optics and size ... I figure they landed the D-Lux optic exactly where they wanted it. Thus, no need to change ... as a testament to the original, rather than needing a change as a testament to the original not being where they wanted it.

A bit circular, but hopefully you get the gist. Sometimes there is a reason why things don't get changed. It's because they already have them, right where they want them. Personally, I wouldn't read too much into the "lack of change" when it comes to Leica optics. They have a long history of designing optics that endure the test of time. I would think no less of the D-Lux optic (assuming they landed it where they wanted it to begin with), wrt to Leica optic design philosophy (even if mfr'd by Panny to Lecia design).




Oct 02, 2024 at 10:25 PM
Lukacs
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p.10 #10 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!


As I think of it, the Q3 43 check almost every boxes in my dream camera. 40mm is my favourite focal length, I realised when I bought Voigtlander 40 1.2, later Ricoh GR3X. I like the design, rangefinder style, minimalist, high build quality camera. Large EVF on side, tiltable LCD (prefer over foldable) check. Leaf shutter. High resolution sensor, high resolution fixed prime.
Reasons why this camera is not instant buy for me:
1. The price, Leica cameras are extremly expensive compared competition, even used ones. I can get A7RV with 35GM and 50 1.2GM cheaper.
2. However F2 lens is quite fast, and has good DOF control on FF, but I want f1.2. As matter of fact I'd like 50 1.2GM rendering and AF speed at 40mm, I don't know it's possible onnce maybe with curved sensor in the current Q43 lens size.
3. AF speed. As far I know it's still far behind Sony tracking AF capabilities.



Oct 03, 2024 at 01:37 AM
 


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tzhang4284
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p.10 #11 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!


RustyBug wrote:
"improve" ... given how much optics is a series of quid pro quo design elements, I'd suggest that "improve" is a bit of a misnomer. They have the opportunity to make changes, but those changes always come with some form of a tradeoff. With that in mind ... if they designed it the way they wanted it, then change might "improve" one aspect, but at the expense of another. For instance, sharper, but now with different bokeh, etc. Less distortion, but reduced corner sharpness, faster or slower zone transitions, etc.

One thing about Leica's optical design (wish I could find the
...Show more

If you look at leicas apo-m line - there’s been a release every 5 to 10 years and the image quality has gotten better with every release. I think their philosophy has been to build the best lens possible but have a very slow release cycle to drip feed customers.

As for the 28mm q lens, I find it hard to believe they can’t do better without compromises. In the last 10 years, the general sharpness of most camera lenses have gone up. The q lens was literally Leicas first mirrorless effort and I think they had help from Panasonic or minola so I’m sure there’s been learnings since then.

As for the d lux 8, I just think its being a bit overhyped on this thread about the q3 for some reason.i think there’s a lot to like but its a bit of a lazy update. I’m sure if the d lux 8 sells well, the d lux 9 will get a new sensor with af and then the d lux 10 will have a new lens - the drip feed continues



Oct 03, 2024 at 02:13 AM
1bwana1
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p.10 #12 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!


tzhang4284 wrote:
The q lens was literally Leicas first mirrorless effort


This statement is of course false. Leica digital cameras have actually been mirrorless from their very first one. That was many years before the first Q.

I beleive the first Leica mirrorless camera was built in 1999. It was the digilux camera which was also a joint project with Panasonic. So the partnership with Panasonic has been part of Leica from the start of Leica digital.

As for the D-Lux 8 update being lazy, maybe maybe not. Besides the lens can you confidently name a significant component of the D-Lux8 that is the same as the D-Lux 7?



Oct 03, 2024 at 02:49 AM
RustyBug
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p.10 #13 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!


tzhang4284 wrote:
If you look at leicas apo-m line - there’s been a release every 5 to 10 years and the image quality has gotten better with every release.


And, the price point to bring to market is about double for the APO versions. The offering provides options for the consumer in this interchangeable platform. The market for D-Lux may not warrant the development of an APO Zoom beyond the level of optics currently in the D Lux.

The other thing about "image quality" is that those APO M lenses are not being designed as "multi-purpose" ... i.e. read as multi-focal length + Macro. When you have such a lens, the designer must make choices with regard to where / how to optimize / balance the performance across such a range. That decision of design ... likely has more influence on the optic staying the same, than many other things.

Optics are pretty much well known to be a series of compromises in complexity. I recall having various zooms that were optimized differently. Some were optimized toward the shorter end, and were more compromised at the long end. Other designers took the approach that the long end was more optimized and the MFD was compromised. Yet others, took the approach of mid-range was optimized and the bookends were modestly compromised.

Those were design philosophy decisions ... much more so than innovation constraints. The physics of optics presents a variety of quid pro quo factors. I understand that things "improve", but in reality it isn't that they really improve, it is that the designers make different choices, regarding their philosophy for the optic. The physics of optics hasn't changed ... only design decisions of what / where to optimize the quid pro quo factors.

How much use of ASPH glass vs. correction / under correction of SA ... that's a designer choice. Some folks tend to prefer the use of ASPH, but the quid pro quo of doing so comes in the onion rings and transitions. Some folks prefer more SA, others less SA. So, which camp one is in philosophically ... design decisions are made wrt to how the designer desires the lens to render. Once that design philosophy for that optic is achieved ... need for changing it?

Again, I see little impetus for expecting redesign of the D-Lux optic.

Short version ... if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

They seemingly got it where they wanted it, and are keeping it there. Judging from the images and praise that other (well respected) users of this little gem are yielding, yeah ... it ain't broke (seemingly, imo). Rather, it's Goldilocks, right where they wanted it to be.

Others will dissent, and rail the designers for lack of change. I tend to appreciate that they landed it where they wanted it in the first place. Designers make choices ... some get reworked. Others remain to become classic. That's not suggesting that the D-Lux will incur the status of "classic", but I do tend think that it's need for "rework" is likely in the camp of diminishing return and/or departure from their already achieved goals for the optic.

YMMV












Design Choices for 28mm



Edited on Oct 03, 2024 at 07:37 AM · View previous versions



Oct 03, 2024 at 07:00 AM
serhan_
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p.10 #14 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!


Leica Digilux 2 / Panasonic LC1– the first classic digital camera (from 2003):

"The Digilux 2 is a digital camera model sold by Leica Camera, with the body manufactured in Japan by Matsushita, which sold a variant as the Panasonic Lumix DMC-LC1. The main selling point of the Digilux 2 is that it functions in a manner reminiscent of a rangefinder camera; the Leica lens features manual zoom, aperture and focus rings and the shutter speed can be manually adjusted via a dial on the camera. Many users cite the excellent Leica DC Vario-Summicron lens as their reason to purchase." Q series has the same DNA...







https://amateurphotographer.com/second-hand/leica-digilux-2-the-first-classic-digital-camera/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leica_Digilux_2

Here is the mini Q review, Panasonic GM1/5+PanaLeica 15mm 1.8 (30mm equiv):

&ab_channel=SamuelStreetlife

Even now, Leica uses Panasonic af tech and S9 has the Leica B&W photo profile... The difference btw Q3/Q3 43 and S9 af is the animal eye af. Q3/Q3 43 have only object af and it is not precise eg focusing on the nose of the pet instead of the eyes... S9 animal eye af is sticky and correct, but the camera misses the button controls of classic cameras including similar Sigma FP camera... Both Leica/Pana cameras has the af options in their af selections excluding eye af, so you can get a smaller package with S9+Sigma 45mm as a cheaper alternative with a more classic lens. Advantage of Q3 43 is the corner to corner sharp apo lens even at f2 (and even after distortion correction) and can be used it under light drizzling rain... The Q3 43 lens OIS is not as good as the sensor IBIS of SL2/R5, maybe a little behind Q2... Even smaller X100Vi IBIS is better in hand holding at lower shutter speeds. I have to test the S9 IBIS, but Panasonic IBIS is much improved after they figured out the Olympus m43 IBIS tech

1bwana1 wrote:
This statement is of course false. Leica digital cameras have actually been mirrorless from their very first one. That was many years before the first Q.

I beleive the first Leica mirrorless camera was built in 1999. It was the digilux camera which was also a joint project with Panasonic. So the partnership with Panasonic has been part of Leica from the start of Leica digital.

As for the D-Lux 8 update being lazy, maybe maybe not. Besides the lens can you confidently name a significant component of the D-Lux8 that is the same as the D-Lux 7?





Oct 03, 2024 at 07:30 AM
tzhang4284
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p.10 #15 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!


1bwana1 wrote:
This statement is of course false. Leica digital cameras have actually been mirrorless from their very first one. That was many years before the first Q.

I beleive the first Leica mirrorless camera was built in 1999. It was the digilux camera which was also a joint project with Panasonic. So the partnership with Panasonic has been part of Leica from the start of Leica digital.

As for the D-Lux 8 update being lazy, maybe maybe not. Besides the lens can you confidently name a significant component of the D-Lux8 that is the same as the D-Lux 7?



A Ford Model T is a precursor to a Ford Mustang but that doesn't mean they share anything between them. I meant modern mirrorless cameras - e.g. Leica SL. Just as how the RX1was basically a dress rehearsal for the sony a7, the Q was the precursor to the SL series, Leica said as much.

I don't really care about how much Panasonic is in a camera but comparing the D-Lux 8 to the Q3 28mm or 43mm is not relevant at all. As for the components in the D-Lux 8 - the sensor as well, which is probably more important than the lens here, - there's a significantly improved 26mp sensor in the G9 II with phase detect AF. To me all the other changes are just window dressing - at its core, it's a camera from 2018.

---------------------------------------------

RustyBug wrote:
And, the price point to bring to market is about double for the APO versions. The offering provides options for the consumer in this interchangeable platform. The market for D-Lux may not warrant the development of an APO Zoom beyond the level of optics currently in the D Lux.

The other thing about "image quality" is that those APO M lenses are not being designed as "multi-purpose" ... i.e. read as multi-focal length + Macro. When you have such a lens, the designer must make choices with regard to where / how to optimize / balance the performance across such a
...Show more

They've also plenty of changes over the years to non-APO Summilux and Summicron lenses to improve image quality, nothing is static as much as you want it to believe that's the case. I only used the APO lenses as an example since it's a similar line and clearly tangible. Everything you say btw is generally true and I agree on design trade offs but I think you underestimate the amount of improvement that can occur in 10 years in optics even today. Processes, design decisions, materials have not stayed static. Every other major manufacturer has made big improvements in their optical designs at a much lower price point as I'm sure has Leica - it just has done it in a more selective way since it has a different business model.

As for the D-Lux optic, I actually agree on the diminishing returns argument - mainly because the potential buyers at the volume they're selling them don't seem to care. That doesn't mean they couldn't make its better if they wanted to - zoom lens designs have improved significantly in 10 years and there's nothing particularly special or magical about the lens when it was the LX100 besides the fact that now it's a Leica.



Oct 03, 2024 at 10:36 AM
instantfoto_
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p.10 #16 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!


I went to the Leica store to check out the Q3 43, and brought along my M11 with the Minolta 40mm for a quick comparison. These shots are wide open, SOOC ...

The detail on the Q43 is insane -- definitely makes me even more tempted to add a 35mm APO. That said, I am really impressed by the 40mm I already have, especially given its age.

Unscientific comparison, but for for thought none the less.







Leica Q3 43







Leica M11 Minolta 40mm







Leica Q3 43







Leica M11 Minolta 40mm




Oct 03, 2024 at 11:56 AM
1bwana1
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p.10 #17 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!


tzhang4284 wrote:
A Ford Model T is a precursor to a Ford Mustang but that doesn't mean they share anything between them. I meant modern mirrorless cameras - e.g. Leica SL. Just as how the RX1was basically a dress rehearsal for the sony a7, the Q was the precursor to the SL series, Leica said as much.

I don't really care about how much Panasonic is in a camera but comparing the D-Lux 8 to the Q3 28mm or 43mm is not relevant at all. As for the components in the D-Lux 8 - the sensor as well, which is probably more
...Show more

The point was that your statement was false. The Model T B.S. doesn't hold validity in the context of that. I don't even know where that is coming from, or where you are going with that. Unless it is just the distraction it appears to be.

If you do the research it is not at all clear that the sensor is exactly the same. There is evidence in both documentation, and in preference data that suggests otherwise. Personally I am not sure about that. But what is clears is that it looks like every other major component of the camera is new. Unless of course you can name one that isn't. That doesn't seem "lazy" to me is all.

It is interesting that you mention the G9II as an upgrade that is not "lazy" when the previous G9 sensor actually had better dynamic range...

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Panasonic%20Lumix%20DC-G9,Panasonic%20Lumix%20DC-G9M2



Edited on Oct 03, 2024 at 12:53 PM · View previous versions



Oct 03, 2024 at 12:42 PM
zeitlos
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p.10 #18 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!


instantfoto_ wrote:
I went to the Leica store to check out the Q3 43, and brought along my M11 with the Minolta 40mm for a quick comparison. These shots are wide open, SOOC ...

The detail on the Q43 is insane -- definitely makes me even more tempted to add a 35mm APO. That said, I am really impressed by the 40mm I already have, especially given its age.

Unscientific comparison, but for for thought none the less.



Thank you!



Oct 03, 2024 at 12:51 PM
tzhang4284
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p.10 #19 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!


1bwana1 wrote:
The point was that your statement was false. The Model T B.S. doesn't hold validity in the context of that. I don't even know where that is coming from, or where you are going with that. Unless it is just the distraction it appears to be.

If you do the research it is not at all clear that the sensor is exactly the same. There is evidence in both documentation, and in preference data that suggests otherwise. Personally I am not sure about that. But what is clears is that it looks like every other major component of the camera is
...Show more

If it's not the same sensor, that's even worse - it means they picked a sensor that is knowingly incapable of phase detect AF or have 4k video without cropping in further. Dynamic range is what it is for a sensor of this size. In any case, it is what it is.



Oct 03, 2024 at 01:57 PM
1bwana1
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p.10 #20 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!


tzhang4284 wrote:
If it's not the same sensor, that's even worse - it means they picked a sensor that is knowingly incapable of phase detect AF or have 4k video without cropping in further. Dynamic range is what it is for a sensor of this size. In any case, it is what it is.


No, at best it appears that it may be an evolution of the D-Lux 7 sensor that uses a slightly different construction. This updated construction increased Dynamic Range a bit, and provided for more energy efficiency. For sure we are now getting better battery life, and now unlimited 4k 30p video record time instead of being limited to 29 minutes.

No they didn't include phase detect Af in this camera. It is not positioned as an AF-C action type camera. I shoot primarily in AF-S Single Frame. My hit rate like this is extremely high. None of the leica cameras has what one would call great AF, in high frame rates when compared to the state of the art mirrorless cameras. That includes the Q(x) line of cameras as well. The AF is adequate for its intended use case. I don't think that is a priority for Leica. It is certainly not for me with the D-Lux 8.



Oct 03, 2024 at 02:13 PM
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