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Archive 2024 · Canon departure thoughts

  
 
johnvanr
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p.8 #1 · Canon departure thoughts


arbitrage wrote:
Has anyone said they can't achieve the shots without the latest and greatest? This is a long and fast moving thread so I may have missed it but I don't recall anyone saying that.

I don't agree that by one having more features and technology at their disposal that therefore they can't hone their craft and create stunning pictures. You can give a person that has very little experience with a camera an A9III or an R1 etc and they will produce crap.

By your definition there are almost no "photographers" out there these days because for the most part everyone
...Show more

As an aside, a while back I took my sister-in-law to a birding spot and gave her my birding kit to use (OM-1 plus 150-400mm). I was surprised how hard it was for her, even with a zoom lens, to get a flying bird in the frame. She had trouble even with the slow vultures.



Jul 20, 2024 at 10:36 AM
swldstn
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p.8 #2 · Canon departure thoughts


While the opinions in this thread are all over the map both pro and against Canon it’s interesting to see what people think. I’ve said this in earlier responses that I shoot both Canon, now with an R5 and 90% RF L lenses ( 9 RF L + 3 EF L ) and Sony with several bodies both full size full frame, like the A1 and A7RV, and the newer compact C bodies like the A7CR an A7CII. I was a big fan of mirrorless so I added to my DSLR based kit when it emerged with first Fuji and then Sony FF.

My key issue with adding to my Canon RF kit with a second R5 II body is its cost especially learning that batteries I currently own won’t even enable all the R5 II’s features and I don’t know if the battery chargers I own and just added to will even work with the new P version batteries. So while I don’t need lenses or flashes for the R5 II the $4399 price here in the US is really at least IMHO almost $300 more to add accessories so more than I care to spend right now. Also lack of any wide angle L primes still four years later and inferior compatibility with teleconverters has me focused on using the Canon body for events with the holy f/2.8 trinity and portraits with the 50/1.2, 85/1.2, and 135/1.8. The lack of a lens reaching out to a faster 600-800mm for less than $2700-$3500 is a problem as well. So to me it’s not the lack of the R5 II capability it’s the weakness of the system’s offering unless I sell other gear to focus on just Canon. So while I pre-ordered I’m rethinking it and probably will hold off for now.
Also lack of any higher performance compact bodies and smaller lenses for travel is another weakness and Sony, again IMHO, is focused on solving that problem.

Just my own thoughts to share with the community here. Take care.



Jul 20, 2024 at 10:56 AM
dorian
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p.8 #3 · Canon departure thoughts


groob wrote:
Seems like people on this thread have no idea that Dorian is one of the best bird photographers going. He’s also *extraordinarily* intelligent and knowledgeable about birds all over the world. I’d hire him in a heartbeat to find elusive birds for me in basically any country.


Thanks so much for that. Cheers!






Jul 20, 2024 at 11:23 AM
Sy Sez
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p.8 #4 · Canon departure thoughts


Pixelpuffin wrote:
Can I be blunt
I get the impression here that those who just have to have the latest greatest is nothing more than Willy dangling - it’s just so pathetic!!

All these models mentioned on this thread regardless of brand are top drawer, the fact you still can’t achieve the pictures says far more about you than the gear.

I have so much respect for those guys who back in the days before even AF was a thing, who learnt their craft and created stunning pictures. Yet now it’s as if the camera should do EVERYTHING….. once you’ve switched it on!! 😂

The blunt
...Show more

I started with a fully Manual Minolta SRT-102, rolled my own Kodak Ektachrome film developed it myself, printed on a Bessler 23C Enlarger, and developed Cibachrome prints with a Besler Motor-base Agitator.

I once remarked on this forum, if that was the case "today", this forum membership would be reduced by 95%



Jul 20, 2024 at 12:13 PM
dorian
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p.8 #5 · Canon departure thoughts


arbitrage wrote:
Has anyone said they can't achieve the shots without the latest and greatest? This is a long and fast moving thread so I may have missed it but I don't recall anyone saying that.

I don't agree that by one having more features and technology at their disposal that therefore they can't hone their craft and create stunning pictures. You can give a person that has very little experience with a camera an A9III or an R1 etc and they will produce crap.

By your definition there are almost no "photographers" out there these days because for the most part everyone
...Show more

Well put, thanks. And here’s the rub (which seems forgotten by some); bird photography demands a lot from the gear. Acquiring and tracking a small, erratic subject in flight, for example, might be the hardest technological ask we make of consumer cameras. Having incredible AF and high density sensors will maximize the number of images we can create against otherwise daunting circumstances. And long, light (and hopefully fast) lenses to aid the tracking of speedy birds? Yep, bring those on, too. Hell, I spend a lot of my of time flat on my stomach, army crawling through mud and water, so any weight reduction is welcome as I wait an hour or two, lens propped on bent arms, for a shy shorebird to give me what I want. Bird photography is a niche interest, so it’s understandable - as others have correctly argued - that camera companies don’t spend the majority of their time developing products for that market. But when new products are released, bird shooters tend to be among the most excited because technology upgrades help us more than they help other sorts of shooters. That’s not a knock on other types of photography; many sorts - street, portrait, event, etc - rely on creativity and vision that I don’t (and will never) possess!

Also, as I mentioned in a previous post, I’m all over the world in any month. If I miss a shot of Marbled Godwit at home in California, it’s not the end of the world since I’m likely to have another chance at some point. But miss Drakensberg Rockjumper in Lesotho, Bengal Florican in Cambodia, or Araripe Manakin in Brazil and who knows when the opportunity will repeat? I am very, very fortunate to have cracks at these and other incredible birds through my work, and I want to make the most of every opportunity which presents. So yeah, I want the best gear in my hands when I encounter my subjects, particularly the rare or lesser known examples. If people wanna hate on me for that, it's their time and effort.

I doubt I'll be dumping my Canon immediately. More likely, I'll use it for another year while I save up some funds. It works great, but, for reasons I and others have articulated on this thread, I'm very wary of investing additional money into a brand which I don't think will suit my future needs as well as others will. If Canon introduces some sweet/light/re-engineered lenses in the next few months, I might stick with them. But I'm not expecting that to happen. And I think the R5II will probably be pretty sweet; I'm just looking at this from a more global perspective when other companies are introducing more complete systems (lighter lenses and high MP flagships) for my needs.

And lastly, here are some sample shot since I always think it helps to know from where a person is coming: https://www.doriananderson.com/photography



Jul 20, 2024 at 12:15 PM
AmbientMike
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p.8 #6 · Canon departure thoughts


This is a parallel universe thread. You wonder where people get ideas like Canon doesn't have teles, isn't innovating in teles, R5 II isn't high enough resolution (guess you're not going Nikon, even 60mp Sony isn't that much higher,) etc

800pf + Z9 is heavier than Rf 600/4 on an R5.


Edited on Jul 20, 2024 at 12:43 PM · View previous versions



Jul 20, 2024 at 12:36 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.8 #7 · Canon departure thoughts


johnvanr wrote:
As an aside, a while back I took my sister-in-law to a birding spot and gave her my birding kit to use (OM-1 plus 150-400mm). I was surprised how hard it was for her, even with a zoom lens, to get a flying bird in the frame. She had trouble even with the slow vultures.


Totally true.

I remember the first time I tried bird photography. I was a very experienced photographer, but had not worked with that subject before. half the time I couldn’t even get the darn bird (flying cranes and geese mostly) in the frame, and when I did I was almost completely unable to keep them in the AF zone.

Eventually, with lots of bird photography under my belt, I got to the point where I can (usually) track the critters in flight, think about where I want them in the frame, pay attention to the relative placement of multiple birds and their wing positions, and think about how the background works compositionally.

So there IS a lot more to it than just the camera.

Though even once you get develop technique the responsiveness of the camera system still matters.


- - -

Sy Sez wrote:
I started with a fully Manual Minolta SRT-102, rolled my own Kodak Ektachrome film developed it myself, printed on a Bessler 23C Enlarger, and developed Cibachrome prints with a Besler Motor-base Agitator.

I once remarked on this forum, if that was the case "today", this forum membership would be reduced by 95%


Heh. The first camera I bought with my own money was a Minolta of that same vintage. Also learned to print at an early age.

(For the record, I’m no interested in working that way any more, even though I could — no more than I’d be interested in driving a car from that era or using that period’s airplanes for travel… ;-) )

- - -

On the general topic of relative value of various equipment options, there are some objective things we can say, and from them we can come to some individual subjective conclusions. I don’t think it is as simple as saying (in my curmudgeonly old guy voice), “these kids today don’t know what it was like to be a REAL photographer back in 1930!” or (in my tech introduction MC voice) “this will change your life, take your photography to the next level!”

Objectively, we can look at camera features and compare brands, and I think it is fair to say that Canon has, at a minimum, not made the typical, expected incremental move forward that we hope to see — they haven’t leapfrogged the other brands’ competitive models. Normally we expect that each new system will mark an advance against the competitions slightly older systems, but it is hard to make an argument that Canon has done that here.

Then we get to the subjective stuff.

Does it matter and to whom? I’ve written earlier about why it matters to me in my particular situations. (Short story: I’ve been waiting since 5DsR for some features that haven’t really arrived in a form that is compelling. I’m no longer driven to stick with a brand because I have their lenses, since I’d move to RF lenses if I moved to Canon R.)

I hear something similar from those who might be interested in the R1. If you were not already committed to one or the other brand, it would be pretty hard to make an ironclad case for the R1 when the A1 exists, at least if you are contemplating and entire system.

On the other hand, if you already have a R5 and a nice set of RF lenses, it almost certainly makes sense to stay where you are. Despite is marginal but real improvements, most photographers are not going to see their world change as a result of moving from the R5 to the R5ii. (Moving from R3 to R1? I’m afraid I’m not qualified ot say much about that.)

What if you bought into Canon mirrorless at an earlier stage, thought the R5 looked pretty good, but held off waiting to see the R5ii? While the R5ii might not be quite all that you hoped for, it is a solid camera that is even a bit better than the R5.

What if you are still happily shooting with your older DSLR system and it is doing everything you need? Hey, save your money!

YMMV.



Jul 20, 2024 at 12:43 PM
ChrisMak
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p.8 #8 · Canon departure thoughts


This thread shows a lot of bias, either pro canon or against canon.
But I think it would be hard to argue that the OP does not have a valid point to make.
Canon has been exceptionally conservative or perhaps just disinterested in these past years when it comes to bodies and lenses for wildlife photography.
I mean, how long has it been since a RF500mm f4/f4.5DO was allegedly tested in the field with various other long lenses, only to never hear from any of these cutting edge high end lenses again.
And why did it have to take until 2024 to bring a high resolution stacked sensor to the table?
And why the obscene price for a lens like the RF800mm f5.6, that is nothing more than a previous generation EF600/4 lens with a 1.4TC and RF adapter put on, when they in fact do have a verey high quality diffractive optics technology, that Nikon has been able to put to good use in the Z800PF.

Canon is not very progressive and forward thinking, and if you have a need or desire for being inspired by new innovative and cutting edge wildlife cameras and lenses, Canon just isn't providing that. Either that or I am missing it. And I have nothing against Canon, I owned the 7DII with EF400mm f4DOII combo.

Edited on Jul 20, 2024 at 12:56 PM · View previous versions



Jul 20, 2024 at 12:51 PM
AmbientMike
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p.8 #9 · Canon departure thoughts


I'd like to see 83mp ff, but here's the rub: nobody else has it either. I'm not really sure photography is going in that direction given that 120mp sensors have been around foreverand you can do pretty much everything on 45-60mp

Even 83mp from the current resolution is rhe same as going from 5mp to 8mp back years ago. Not a big difference really. More incremental

Canon has the 200-800, 100-500, 1.5 lb 100-400, 800/11, 600/11 nobody else has. They also have the 1st sub-7lb 600/4 & 400/2.8, in addition to the full stable of 200/2, 300/2.8, 400/2.8, etc. You can tell me that they just attached a tc to get to the 800/5.6 & 1200/8 , but that doesn't make me impressed with your optics knowledge



Jul 20, 2024 at 12:55 PM
dorian
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p.8 #10 · Canon departure thoughts


AmbientMike wrote:
I'd like to see 83mp ff, but here's the rub: nobody else has it either. I'm not really sure photography is going in that direction given that 120mp sensors have been around foreverand you can do pretty much everything on 45-60mp

Even 83mp from the current resolution is rhe same as going from 5mp to 8mp back years ago. Not a big difference really. More incremental

Canon has the 200-800, 100-500, 1.5 lb 100-400, 800/11, 600/11 nobody else has. They also have the 1st sub-7lb 600/4 & 400/2.8, in addition to the full stable of 200/2, 300/2.8, 400/2.8, etc. You can
...Show more

200-800 too slow
100-500 too slow, too short
100-400 too short
800/11 too slow
600/11 too slow

RF 400 - still and EF lens at its core
RF 600 - same as above

200/2 too short
300/2.8 too short

What I want -- and what Nikon or Sony has NOW - is a redesigned (i.e. complete overhaul, new motor) 500/4, 600/4, 600/5.6, 600/6.3, or 800/6.3. And if Canon would put a TC in any of those, that would be even better. Canon does has some sweet mid-price long lenses or long zooms, but I want a top-of-the-market prime to match what Nikon and Son have (again) NOW. At present, Canon meets your demands. And that's great. But they aren't meeting mine.



Jul 20, 2024 at 01:16 PM
cjacques
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p.8 #11 · Canon departure thoughts


dorian wrote:
200-800 too slow
100-500 too slow, too short
100-400 too short
800/11 too slow
600/11 too slow

RF 400 - still and EF lens at its core
RF 600 - same as above

200/2 too short
300/2.8 too short

What I want -- and what Nikon or Sony has NOW - is a redesigned (i.e. complete overhaul, new motor) 500/4, 600/4, 600/5.6, 600/6.3, or 800/6.3. And if Canon would put a TC in any of those, that would be even better. Canon does has some sweet mid-price long lenses or long zooms, but I want a top-of-the-market prime to match what Nikon and Son have (again) NOW. At present,
...Show more


Agree with you Dorian. this is my main source of envy towards the other systems.




Jul 20, 2024 at 01:32 PM
cjacques
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p.8 #12 · Canon departure thoughts


I have always been a Canon user aside from a Contax Camera I owned in the pre-digital world. When Canon released the R5, I purchased it right away. Finally a mirrorless camera that did not make me regret my 5D mark iii or my 1dX mark I and ii, even if I kept them in my closet forever… just in case 😊 I was so happy I could jump in the mirrorless world with all my EF lenses , many prime ones. I did not feel I had to spend a penny more on glass to be able to get bird and wildlife images that I liked. I felt that many of the lenses I owned were performing as well if not better on the R5. Over the last few years, Canon has disappointed me in some areas and a few times this led me to toy with the idea of making a switch to another brand. Although this is just a hobby for me, I love to have only the best of cameras, one is never enough and only the best in glass and only one of the best is also never enough. I have a clear preference for F2.8 and F4 long lenses for birds and wildlife. I am not much interested in the complexities that owning two or three systems could generate, especially when travelling. I could probably learn a new system but then would probably prefer being in the field and enjoying the images I capture rather than wondering why the new “improved” system that I acquired at high cost is not giving me the results I hope for. So in the end, when I go back to reality I can better appreciate that investing $50K in a hobby at my age, does not make any sense at any level, comfort wise, financially wise, results wise etc When I drill down and look at my greatest dissatisfaction, the shortage of innovative and lightweight lens options for bird and wildlife photography is the main issue I would like Canon to address. I pre-ordered the R5 mark ii. A better extra long lens offering by Canon would even entice me to order the R1 too. I love to travel with Flagship, the ones I owned from Canon were so reliable in any kind of condition. Furthermore Canon has been so good at delivering glass of stellar quality in the past. They have the “know how “and demonstrated it so many times. I can only imagine that investing more in glass for them would be so much simpler than catching up or trying to beat up the competition on camera specs. So, this is why I remain confident that now that the R1 and R5 mark ii are out of the way, Canon will realise how much they could gain by turning their attention to more innovative glass. BTW given the budget involved in making a system switch, my husband tells me it is a good thing that I remain confident 😊


Jul 20, 2024 at 01:32 PM
AmbientMike
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p.8 #13 · Canon departure thoughts


dorian wrote:
200-800 too slow
100-500 too slow, too short
100-400 too short
800/11 too slow
600/11 too slow

RF 400 - still and EF lens at its core
RF 600 - same as above

200/2 too short
300/2.8 too short

What I want -- and what Nikon or Sony has NOW - is a redesigned (i.e. complete overhaul, new motor) 500/4, 600/4, 600/5.6, 600/6.3, or 800/6.3. And if Canon would put a TC in any of those, that would be even better. Canon does has some sweet mid-price long lenses or long zooms, but I want a top-of-the-market prime to match what Nikon and Son have (again) NOW. At present,
...Show more

I've never heard of the motor thing and I'm very skeptical. Sony didn't even have a big tele until 2018 and they just don't have the breadth of options

100-500 is 1/3 stop different 200-600, so that is too slow, too, 6.3 vs 7.1. I've looked at it and f/11 should be pretty usable for me especially using IS. Obviously not for every situation , but I handled one someone had on an R5 on the Christmas Bird count one year

OK I'll include the rest of the list 500/4, 600/4, 800/5.6, 1200/5.6 & 8. It might not apply to you but Mostly people saying Rf 400 & 600 are rehashed EF because they don't understand the lenses can be put in both mounts, which drives me nuts.





Jul 20, 2024 at 01:32 PM
Cliff L.
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p.8 #14 · Canon departure thoughts


dorian wrote:
RF 400 - still and EF lens at its core
RF 600 - same as above



Considering those EF lenses were so far ahead of the competition back when they were released, that's not necessarily a bad thing, especially considering the RF versions focus faster, much more accurately, and have much better image stabilization.

Let's be honest here - the skill and determination of the photographer will make significantly more difference in the final image than any minute differences in lens quality between the Canon/Nikon/Sony 400mm and 600mm primes.



Jul 20, 2024 at 01:44 PM
Cliff L.
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p.8 #15 · Canon departure thoughts


ChrisMak wrote:
Canon is not very progressive and forward thinking, and if you have a need or desire for being inspired by new innovative and cutting edge wildlife cameras and lenses, Canon just isn't providing that. Either that or I am missing it.



What so many people fail to comprehend is that Canon is a company that is in business to return a profit for their shareholders. Catering to a handful of bored rich people on some internet forum is hardly a sound business practice.



Jul 20, 2024 at 01:50 PM
rscheffler
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p.8 #16 · Canon departure thoughts


dorian wrote:
RF 400 - still and EF lens at its core
RF 600 - same as above

molson wrote:
Considering those EF lenses were so far ahead of the competition back when they were released, that's not necessarily a bad thing, especially considering the RF versions focus faster, much more accurately, and have much better image stabilization.

Let's be honest here - the skill and determination of the photographer will make significantly more difference in the final image than any minute differences in lens quality between the Canon/Nikon/Sony 400mm and 600mm primes.


Yes, how much are we splitting hairs? Maybe one could say the EF versions are RF lenses at their core?

The EF versions were released in 2018, the same year as the R system's debut. There is no way these lenses were developed in isolation from the R system. It's more likely the lenses were optimized to work with both systems and that the RF versions are tuned for the differences required for mirrorless vs. DSLRs.

So while I agree that the lack of an internal TC was a missed opportunity by Canon if indeed they rushed these lenses out, and the lack of mid-tier long primes is discouraging for bird/wildlife photographers, I'm not convinced there is an AF performance penalty afflicting the 400/2.8 and 600/4 RF versions on R cameras. It seems more like the continued parroting of something someone claimed way back when these were released (just rehoused EF lenses). Has someone shown that the RF versions of these lenses aren't up to the task? From the birding photos I've seen with the 400 on the R3 in other threads here, there doesn't seem to be a problem focusing on small birds, such as swallows in flight. Or flying owls at dusk. Maybe @RobAmy or @stanj could comment?


Edited on Jul 20, 2024 at 01:54 PM · View previous versions



Jul 20, 2024 at 01:52 PM
cjacques
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p.8 #17 · Canon departure thoughts


molson wrote:
Considering those EF lenses were so far ahead of the competition back when they were released, that's not necessarily a bad thing, especially considering the RF versions focus faster, much more accurately, and have much better image stabilization.

Let's be honest here - the skill and determination of the photographer will make significantly more difference in the final image than any minute differences in lens quality between the Canon/Nikon/Sony 400mm and 600mm primes.


Hi Cliff

I was under the impression that the Ef 600 mark ii was sharper than the new mark iii version. I assumed that the sharpness of the RF 600 was the same as the mark iii. Would appreciate any clarification and if you have any reliable information source on that matter. thanks in advance



Jul 20, 2024 at 01:54 PM
Uarctos
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p.8 #18 · Canon departure thoughts


I still have the EF 600mm f4 IS III and I bet you can't tell any difference in real world between that ''old '' lens and the same ''old'' Sony 600mm F4, or that new Nikon 600mm F4 if I'll attach a 1.4xTC to my lens. Sure it's much easier on the Nikon to switch between 600mm and 840mm, but hardly something that important.


Jul 20, 2024 at 02:04 PM
rscheffler
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p.8 #19 · Canon departure thoughts


Test charts over at TDP suggest that differences between the II and III become slightly apparent with the TCs, possibly in favor of the II, but the weight advantage of the III likely benefits the photographer more. On the other hand, the Sony 600/4 with TCs looks to outperform the Canon options, with TCs. Bare, there doesn't seem to be much difference. The problem with test charts is it's test charts and not real-world conditions, along with only showing sharpness at one focus distance...


Jul 20, 2024 at 02:09 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.8 #20 · Canon departure thoughts


What so many people fail to comprehend is that Canon is a company that is in business to return a profit…

Wow! Mind. Blown. Never would have thought of that! A shocking revelation!

Edited on Jul 20, 2024 at 03:07 PM · View previous versions



Jul 20, 2024 at 02:26 PM
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