I'm late to the party here (was on vacation when FW 5.0 was released) but it looks like a nice upgrade to me. The fact that we're still getting major FW updates with dozens of improvements over 2 years after release is awesome. I suspect we're well past the point of diminishing returns for FW-based AF improvements as the engineers have to work within certain hardware limitations, and there is unlikely to be much more headroom there considering how good the AF was even right at launch. I also think we've been somewhat spoiled by the magnitude of previous updates, and that is simply not a sustainable trajectory with fixed hardware. Anytime we get a free FW update instead of having to buy a new camera is a win as far as I'm concerned.
RE: No Pixel Shift - the Z9 uses a significantly different IBIS mechanism than the Z8, it is physically much larger and likely more robust. It's also older, so there could be hardware reasons why they haven't enabled that for the Z9. I'm guessing that if it was possible and/or easily implemented, it would have been a headline feature of 5.0.
RE: RAW Pre-Capture - this I think would be much more challenging for Nikon to implement. To the best of my understanding, JPEG pre-capture works right now because the camera is already doing it for the most part for the EVF feed and for AI-AF scene analysis. Those images are already sitting either in the buffer or some other dedicated internal memory, so presumably all Nikon has to do is redirect them through the memory card as well, and maybe record them at higher resolution than what is used for the EVF feed. I believe this is is also one reason why JPEG picture control settings are reflected in the EVF. To do that in RAW seems like it would require quite a major adjustment to the current image processing pipeline, but hopefully I am wrong. If it is in fact handled completely separate to the EVF feed, then Nikon should be able to add RAW pre-capture, maybe just with a shorter pre-capture duration. I'm also not sure if the TicoRAW algorithm used for HE RAWs helps or hinders the process as traditionally there would also be a 12bit compressed RAW option that we no longer have.
CanadaMark wrote:
I'm late to the party here (was on vacation when FW 5.0 was released) but it looks like a nice upgrade to me. The fact that we're still getting major FW updates with dozens of improvements over 2 years after release is awesome. I suspect we're well past the point of diminishing returns for FW-based AF improvements as the engineers have to work within certain hardware limitations, and there is unlikely to be much more headroom there considering how good the AF was even right at launch. I also think we've been somewhat spoiled by the magnitude of previous updates, and that is simply not a sustainable trajectory with fixed hardware. Anytime we get a free FW update instead of having to buy a new camera is a win as far as I'm concerned.
RE: No Pixel Shift - the Z9 uses a significantly different IBIS mechanism than the Z8, it is physically much larger and likely more robust. It's also older, so there could be hardware reasons why they haven't enabled that for the Z9. I'm guessing that if it was possible and/or easily implemented, it would have been a headline feature of 5.0.
RE: RAW Pre-Capture - this I think would be much more challenging for Nikon to implement. To the best of my understanding, JPEG pre-capture works right now because the camera is already doing it for the most part for the EVF feed and for AI-AF scene analysis. Those images are already sitting either in the buffer or some other dedicated internal memory, so presumably all Nikon has to do is redirect them through the memory card as well, and maybe record them at higher resolution than what is used for the EVF feed. I believe this is is also one reason why JPEG picture control settings are reflected in the EVF. To do that in RAW seems like it would require quite a major adjustment to the current image processing pipeline, but hopefully I am wrong. If it is in fact handled completely separate to the EVF feed, then Nikon should be able to add RAW pre-capture, maybe just with a shorter pre-capture duration. I'm also not sure if the TicoRAW algorithm used for HE RAWs helps or hinders the process as traditionally there would also be a 12bit compressed RAW option that we no longer have....Show more →
Fuji doesn't seem to have any trouble dealing with 40mp RAW pre-capture files on the X-H2; I don't understand why Nikon can't implement something similar.
X-H2 preshot (and really all Gen 5 sportsfinder type modes that are ES only) uses a 1.29x crop, so those pics aren't 40mp.
Regardless, the architectures of a Fuji X-H2 and Z8/9 are entirely different. Nikon reserves a huge part of their pipeline to the EVF data feed that Fuji doesn't, you simply can't compare them like that.
X-H2 preshot (and really all Gen 5 sportsfinder type modes that are ES only) uses a 1.29x crop, so those pics aren't 40mp.
Regardless, the architectures of a Fuji X-H2 and Z8/9 are entirely different. Nikon reserves a huge part of their pipeline to the EVF data feed that Fuji doesn't, you simply can't compare them like that.
True, it's only 15 fps for the full 40mp files for the X-H2, while the X-H2S does full 26mp RAW files at 40 fps... but the point is, all the Fuji cameras are capable of RAW pre-shots, and all Nikon can manage is tiny, low-quality 11mp JPEG video screen grabs...
I guess this is just one more of those modern mainstream camera features that Nikon management simply doesn't understand.
molson wrote:
I guess this is just one more of those modern mainstream camera features that Nikon management simply doesn't understand.
Do you really believe that the management of a "big 3" camera company doesn't understand how a camera buffer works? They have even mentioned RAW pre-capture in executive interviews as something they are looking into. I'm sure they know precisely what RAW precapture is and how it works (given that they already offer non-RAW precapture), but are somehow unable to implement it either based on how the camera's imaging pipeline currently operates, or due to a particular hardware limitation - that is anyone's guess. Maybe it's difficult to do with TicoRAW. Maybe its something they can add with FW, it might not be. Nobody knows.
It's also possible that this is the trade-off we get for having the only truly blackout-free EVF on the market, but that is of course speculation.
It doesn't seem like a mainstream feature either on FF camera bodies, there are only few I'm aware of that have the feature. Even the lower resolution Canon R3 doesn't have it to my knowledge, unless it was in a recent FW update.
I hope they do add it. It's not a feature I personally would use but I know it would be very well received.
this is me wrote:
How much better is the AF? I’m already very happy with Z9.
Depends on what you shoot, but I haven't noticed any defects in AF that are a step backwards, and there are several big leaps forwards, particularly for BIF. You can always roll back.
molson wrote:
I can only judge them by their actions - but thanks for totally manipulating my words to suit your own narrative... again.
I thought you were joking - hence the similey face in my reply. Sorry if that didn't come through as intended...reading it again, maybe it wasn't so obvious.
At any rate, rest assured they know exactly what RAW pre-capture is and they have discussed it in interviews. Hopefully we see it in a future update or the Z9II. The lack of a certain feature is not a good indicator manufacturer's understanding, especially when a similar form of the feature already exists in their products. If that were the case, there would be a whole lot of clueless camera manufacturers out there
molson wrote:
True, it's only 15 fps for the full 40mp files for the X-H2, while the X-H2S does full 26mp RAW files at 40 fps... but the point is, all the Fuji cameras are capable of RAW pre-shots, and all Nikon can manage is tiny, low-quality 11mp JPEG video screen grabs...
I guess this is just one more of those modern mainstream camera features that Nikon management simply doesn't understand.
If I am not mistaken the Z9 was the first FF camera to offer pre-capture as a firmware update wasn’t it? Granted jpg only.
If you have knowledge about agile development you’ll know that the prioritized list of features that are included in agile sprints are a matter for executive review.
So Nikon most definitely understands what pre-capture is and why it’s more important than many other things they could have included in that firmware update.
Implying that they don’t understand the value paints you as someone unable to assess the abilities and intentions of Nikon in an objective and fair way. That comment wasn’t about their actions.
molson wrote:
True, it's only 15 fps for the full 40mp files for the X-H2, while the X-H2S does full 26mp RAW files at 40 fps... but the point is, all the Fuji cameras are capable of RAW pre-shots, and all Nikon can manage is tiny, low-quality 11mp JPEG video screen grabs...
I guess this is just one more of those modern mainstream camera features that Nikon management simply doesn't understand.
If you set the drive mode to 30 fps, 45 MP JPGs are available in pre-release capture.
Anyone reporting issues with AF not be able to reacquire focus again when you switch to another subject? Or there is a lag or delay? The behavior is similar to when the focusing distance is too extreme on both subjects and the body would just stop even trying to reacquire focus. Shooting with a 70-200s. Shooting in AF C, AF assist medium size box.... The situation improves choosing Erratic mode and speed is at 1.
I took over 1600 shots on Sunday and it may have happened 4 times. The keeper rate is still normal, around 95%. I don't remember version 4 firmware having the same issues. Bright sunny day with a clear sky. There are plenty of contrast on the subjects. I can wake up the AF if I press the AF-ON button again. Normally, you hold the AF-ON button and the body would just focus where you point the camera to. Some suggests I should reset the setting with version 4 and to update to version 5 again.
TooManyShots wrote:
Anyone reporting issues with AF not be able to reacquire focus again when you switch to another subject? Or there is a lag or delay? The behavior is similar to when the focusing distance is too extreme on both subjects and the body would just stop even trying to reacquire focus. Shooting with a 70-200s. Shooting in AF C, AF assist medium size box.... The situation improves choosing Erratic mode and speed is at 1.
I took over 1600 shots on Sunday and it may have happened 4 times. The keeper rate is still normal, around 95%. I don't remember version 4 firmware having the same issues. Bright sunny day with a clear sky. There are plenty of contrast on the subjects. I can wake up the AF if I press the AF-ON button again. Normally, you hold the AF-ON button and the body would just focus where you point the camera to. Some suggests I should reset the setting with version 4 and to update to version 5 again. ...Show more →
I've shot about 7,000 photos on FW 5.0 so far (all wildlife) and have not noticed that behavior or any other issues - that's all I can speak to. AF appears to be identical to FW 4.1 with zero delay or hunting under any situation I have encountered so far.
I'd say that if you experienced an issue ~4 times on 1,600 shots (0.25% of the time), and if your keeper rate is the same as always (95%), then there is likely nothing out of the ordinary going on. You said it "may" have happened, so if I am understanding you correctly, that suggests that it also may not have. I'm guessing it's not easily repeatable if it's that rare, and if that's the case, I personally wouldn't bother resetting the camera or fiddling with the FW again. Is it possible that you are just paying more attention now that there was a new FW? I know I sometimes do that. If your keeper rate is still ~95% then I would assume nothing is wrong.
If you do find a way to force the issue to occur in a controlled/repeatable manner, then you could try rolling back to 4.1 and see if it goes away or has always been there.
TooManyShots wrote:
Anyone reporting issues with AF not be able to reacquire focus again when you switch to another subject? Or there is a lag or delay? The behavior is similar to when the focusing distance is too extreme on both subjects and the body would just stop even trying to reacquire focus. Shooting with a 70-200s. Shooting in AF C, AF assist medium size box.... The situation improves choosing Erratic mode and speed is at 1.
I took over 1600 shots on Sunday and it may have happened 4 times. The keeper rate is still normal, around 95%. I don't remember version 4 firmware having the same issues. Bright sunny day with a clear sky. There are plenty of contrast on the subjects. I can wake up the AF if I press the AF-ON button again. Normally, you hold the AF-ON button and the body would just focus where you point the camera to. Some suggests I should reset the setting with version 4 and to update to version 5 again. ...Show more →
Nope not me either! Sometimes shit happens though but I don't think its related to the new firmware!
I just realized I only ran this update once. Used camera and appeared to be just fine. Sitting at home now for a few weeks off. Will I or did I screw something up not performing back to back installs?
eskimochaos wrote:
I just realized I only ran this update once. Used camera and appeared to be just fine. Sitting at home now for a few weeks off. Will I or did I screw something up not performing back to back installs?
I'm sure they know precisely what RAW precapture is and how it works (given that they already offer non-RAW precapture), but are somehow unable to implement it either based on how the camera's imaging pipeline currently operates, or due to a particular hardware limitation - that is anyone's guess. Maybe it's difficult to do with TicoRAW. Maybe its something they can add with FW, it might not be. Nobody knows. 