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Canon 5Ds R vs R5

  
 
BokehBeauty
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Canon 5Ds R vs R5


I saw images (portraits) made with the Canon 5Ds R, and I’m completely taken by the “presence” and skin tone. Now I contemplate of buying a used one, even though I have the R5.

Any opinion of people who have both? My most liked type of photography is people, portrait, families, environmental portrait, fashion.



Sep 16, 2023 at 01:23 AM
Gunzorro
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Canon 5Ds R vs R5


You might also look for a "regular" 5Ds with for slightly more forgiving look on skin tones and areas that don't need intense contrast available in 5DsR -- and at a slightly lower price on the used market. If you already own quality EF L lenses, it seems like a great option.

I don't own both the 5DsR and R5, but I do have 5DsR and R. I love the high contrast and fine details of the 5DsR -- nearly as good as Sony a7R4 with its 61MP, vs. 5DsR's 51MP.

I would certainly be interested to see comparison shots between R5 and 5DsR of people and other subjects.



Sep 16, 2023 at 09:52 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Canon 5Ds R vs R5


BokehBeauty wrote:
I saw images (portraits) made with the Canon 5Ds R, and I’m completely taken by the “presence” and skin tone. Now I contemplate of buying a used one, even though I have the R5.

Any opinion of people who have both? My most liked type of photography is people, portrait, families, environmental portrait, fashion.


I have not used both, but I have used the 5DsR since it came out.

I like the 5DsR a lot, and it remains a very capable camera for many kinds of photography. However, my post may disappoint you a bit.

I do not believe in the mystical claims about camera bodies such as "presence" and "skin tone." These claims are a dime a dozen... and if you look around you'll find that various people make similar claims about almost any good camera body... and that the claims virtually never are borne to by looking at photographs where you don't know in advance what camera was used. (The eliminates the dangerous confirmation bias that can creep into analysis otherwise.)

Your R5 is a fine camera that can do anything that my 5DsR can do. You'll get equal skin tones and presence from it. Any magic comes not from cameras but from your skill in using them.

One. more thing: Before I got my 5DsR back when it was first available, I recall being concerned about the potential differences between the 5Ds and the 5DsR. There were all kinds of claims about various sorts of significant differences. So I got my hands on raw files from both cameras and put them through my. post-processing workflow, all the way to making large magnification image tests and printing on the Epson 7900 that I was using at the time. I discovered that once I optimized my post-processing workflow for each camera (for example, using slightly different sharpening approaches) the differences were so tiny as to be completely meaningless.

Dan



Sep 16, 2023 at 09:56 AM
BokehBeauty
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Canon 5Ds R vs R5


Thank you, what do you mean by the following sentence

Gunzorro wrote:
slightly more forgiving look on skin tones and areas that don't need intense contrast available in 5DsR


Also, my most liked lenses are Zeiss ZE. How is manual focusing on the 5Ds(R)? On the 5D Mk II I had the EG-S focusing screen.



Sep 16, 2023 at 11:33 AM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Canon 5Ds R vs R5


BokehBeauty wrote:
Thank you, what do you mean by the following sentence

Also, my most liked lenses are Zeiss ZE. How is manual focusing on the 5Ds(R)? On the 5D Mk II I had the EG-S focusing screen.


Manual focus on a 5DSR. That's funny. Ain't gonna happen. The focusing screen is useless. You need to use Live View on the rear LCD or autofocus.



Sep 16, 2023 at 12:00 PM
AmbientMike
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Canon 5Ds R vs R5


A guy aaked me for some old photos taken years ago, and I was looking at some old Rebel XT images just yesterday. I opened one, looked at 100% IIRC, and thought maybe I ought to use an older body, since it looked really nice

I used a 20D on some portraits towards the end of last school year, and felt like I got better portraits doing that. I didnt do side by side, it would have been odd changing bodies and asking them to hold the pose, and I just don't do a lot of portraits, mostly just trying to get some great stuff. The ones I shot on a different body didn't look as good although I suppose I really didn't put them through much, if any, testing.

18mp aps didn't get too much love on here it seemed, and my old 12mp m4/3 sensor really kinda bad in some cases. PP can be huge, but I'm definitely leaning towards sensor making a difference as well.



Sep 16, 2023 at 12:44 PM
Gunzorro
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Canon 5Ds R vs R5


BokehBeauty wrote:
Thank you, what do you mean by the following sentence

Also, my most liked lenses are Zeiss ZE. How is manual focusing on the 5Ds(R)? On the 5D Mk II I had the EG-S focusing screen.


I meant to say the 5Ds has a low pass filter like most "standard" sensors, so high contrast edges may be slightly muted or muffled producing smoother graduations out of camera. 5DsR lacks the "softening effect" of this filter, producing a slightly higher contrast rendering.



Sep 16, 2023 at 12:50 PM
BokehBeauty
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Canon 5Ds R vs R5


Peter Figen wrote:
Manual focus on a 5DSR. That's funny. Ain't gonna happen. The focusing screen is useless. You need to use Live View on the rear LCD or autofocus.


Thank you. That’s the end of this GAS episode.



Sep 16, 2023 at 12:51 PM
AmbientMike
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Canon 5Ds R vs R5


I changed screens on the 5D & 40D. Are you sure you can't on 5DsR?


Sep 16, 2023 at 01:02 PM
jojib
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Canon 5Ds R vs R5


I have the 5Ds not the R nor do I have the R5 but have the R6MKII. I normally shoot RAW + jpeg but I don't see any difference with skin tones nor colours between the 5Ds and the R6MKII. I love the 5Ds but ever since I got the R6MKII earlier during this year I haven't shot with the 5Ds. The newer camera is just easier to use plus the eye-AF/subject recognition technology is superb. Simply put I get more keepers out it. Having said that, I have no qualms of using the 5Ds again because even if the number of keepers are less let's say using wide open my 50/1.2 or 85/1.2II lens---there's always Topaz AI to save the day.


Sep 16, 2023 at 02:46 PM
 


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gdanmitchell
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Canon 5Ds R vs R5


Gunzorro wrote:
I meant to say the 5Ds has a low pass filter like most "standard" sensors, so high contrast edges may be slightly muted or muffled producing smoother graduations out of camera. 5DsR lacks the "softening effect" of this filter, producing a slightly higher contrast rendering.


Back when these cameras came out we were less clear about the issues related to cameras that don't do AA filtering. (BTW, the 5DsR does have AA filters, but they are oriented in such a way that the effect is cancelled.)

When I considered the 5DsR and the 5Ds, I started out with an assumption like this — that the 5DsR might produce slightly "sharper" edges – and also that aliasing/moire might be worse on the 5Dsr — and that the 5Ds might produce images that are less sharp and perhaps "smoother."

So I tested with raw files from both bodies. But I also took files through workflows that I optimized for each camera —  just like I would actually do in the real world with any camera I use — and I developed slightly different settings for each: for example, sharpening with a smaller ratius and lower amount for the 5DsR than for the 5Ds.

In the end, any actual differences were incredibly tiny. If I inspected at 200% magnification, sometimes I could maybe convince myself that they weren't the same. But both were really good – extremely sharp and with no serious concerns about aliasing.

And when it comes to gradients, I cannot imagine how there could possibly be a visible difference. By definition, with gradients adjacent pixels are little different from one another, so the edge related issues become even less meaningful.

- - -

BTW, I also agree that thinking you are going to MF using the viewfinder on these two cameras isn't particularly realistic. First of, the viewfinders just aren't really optimized for that, lacking some of the focusing aids that come in later cameras. Second, it situations where MF is useful — for example in landscape photography with the camera on the tripod — the real live view screen is WAY more useful, especially if you use the 16x magnification display to fine tune focus.

In answer to the question, no, you cannot change out the focusing screen on the 5Ds/5DsR.

- - -

There are reasons to choose to use a 5Ds or 5DsR. I continue to use my 5DsR for certain kinds of photography and I'm not in any hurry to replace it for those purposes. But if I had a R5 I would not see any value in also having a 5Ds/5DsR value aside from having a cheap backup body... which unfortunately uses a different lens system.

Edited on Sep 16, 2023 at 03:04 PM · View previous versions



Sep 16, 2023 at 03:00 PM
stanj
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Canon 5Ds R vs R5


Had the 5DsR since it came out, got the R5 when that one came out, immediately sold the 5DsR and got another R5. The few pixels could not make up for the other overall improvements, whether it's shooting landscapes or people. YMMV.


Sep 16, 2023 at 03:03 PM
PhilPDX
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Canon 5Ds R vs R5


stanj wrote:
The few pixels could not make up for the other overall improvements...


For me it's exactly the opposite. I had both the 5Ds and R5, and sold the latter because its image quality wasn't on par with the 5Ds while at the same time having an abysmal battery life.

-Phil



Sep 16, 2023 at 03:34 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Canon 5Ds R vs R5


My view (owned 5dsr - moved to r5) is:

Between 6 more mpx and offsetting R, you can get about 10% more resolution. This is not enough to choose 5dsr vs r5. I know Dan is of the view that sharpening offsets but 10% is not something you can see with your eyes, so it's not surprising that he did not see a difference. This is my roundabout way of agreeing with him.

I really notice the R vs AA. The 5dsr takes less effort to sharpen. I find sharpening annoying - when do you do it. How do you save the unsharpened because sharpening is different based on usage (web small, print, vs other). I just like the images better for this reason.

The r5 has more dynamic range but only at iso 100 where you don't need it.

The r5 has 20fps, which is greatly bigger than 6pfs.

The r5 has eye focus that is finicky - I like point focus usually and switch to eye but don't use the camera enough for birds and moving people, to remember my user programmed button.

The r5 is 200ish grams lighter that really makes a difference.

The r5 has ibis, that matters a bit if you have manual focus primes and shoot off the tripod. For me this is meh, because when I care I shoot on the tripod. And when I am off the tripod (wildlife, travel) it does not matter (wildlife lens have is, mid day shooting does not need IBIS).

The r5 has great video at 4k. I like the r8 better because it's simpler to use but in skilled hands, it's great. Way better than 5dsr.

------------------------

I think that if you just shoot landscape on tripod, the 5dsr is better. Less sharpening, lower cost, and less features on video to fuss with.

But if you want a do it all body, the R5 is superior in almost every dimension except price and sharpening. And once you have r5, you won't use the 5dsr, because it can achieve everything that the 5dsr can do but more.

If you already had the 5dsr, I would suggest buying the r8 to complement the 5dsr, and you have all the features. The 450grams r8 vs 750grams r5 vs 890 grams 5dsr is so much better for walking the streets or backpacking.





Sep 16, 2023 at 04:28 PM
stanj
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Canon 5Ds R vs R5


stanj wrote:
The few pixels could not make up for the other overall improvements...

PhilPDX wrote:
For me it's exactly the opposite. I had both the 5Ds and R5, and sold the latter because its image quality wasn't on par with the 5Ds while at the same time having an abysmal battery life.


Right on the battery life. As for image quality, I think that greatly depends on the ISO you're using and if you need AF to get the shot. A blurry or noisy photo is not as good as a sharp one with six fewer MPs... This goes for shooting people (indoors, moving) where I don't have to worry about high ISO, or owls, who tend to fly in low light (although for that I now have the R3), or street at night. Again, I guess it depends on usage pattern.



Sep 16, 2023 at 06:29 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Canon 5Ds R vs R5


Thanks for that overview. I even enjoyed your roundabout way of agreeing with me. ;-)

I thought I'd reply to this, even though it isn't specifically a R5/5DsR point:

Scott Stoness wrote:
I really notice the R vs AA. The 5dsr takes less effort to sharpen. I find sharpening annoying - when do you do it. How do you save the unsharpened because sharpening is different based on usage (web small, print, vs other). I just like the images better for this reason.


If you are really into the more subtle aspects of sharpening, you might find that there are "layers" of sharpening that you can apply at different points in the workflow for different reasons. One of mine is specifically reserved for the final output differences you are mentioning.

The process that follows might sound onerous to those who shy away from digging into sharpening, but there are ways to make it pretty quick and nearly automatic. I'm a ACR->Photoshop guy, so the details will be a bit different if you use Lightroom or other software.

I do three phases of sharpening.

The first is INPUT SHARPENING during the raw file conversion process. Basically, all raw files have to have some basic sharpening applied since they start out soft. These days I use two sets of settings, one for my 5DsR and another for my Fujjifilm XT5. (I keep some legacy settings around for older cameras, but I rarely do raw conversion on those older files.) I can store the camera-specific settings in ACR and just plug them in automatically as starting points, but I can also make them pretty quickly from scratch. I do a few other things related to sharpening in ACR, too. For example I may raise the mask slider (while previewing the effect) and add some basic NR, especially with high ISO files. This is very quick, even with somewhat trickier files.

Once I complete my raw conversion I open the file as a smart layer in Photoshop. (Opening this way includes a copy of the raw file in your Photoshop file, which will be quite large, but it also makes a ton of adjustments non-destructive and you can change them later f you need to.) If you use Lightroom you are essentially doing this automatically within that environment.) I do a lot of stuff with layers in Photoshop, depending on the image and what is required. As to sharpening, what I do here is typically pretty basic — I apply a set of predetermined settings that generally work well for the converted raw file from whatever camera I'm using. Until recently, I might have done other things like add custom sharpening and sharpening-related settings to masked areas of the image, though with the newly powerful masks in ACR I'm doing that less and less. By the way, some have referred to this entire phase of sharpening as CREATIVE SHARPENING. I'm not sure that is the best description, but it's the only one I've seen. This version of the file is the one I save, and I save only one copy of the full resolution file.

A third phase has been called OUTPUT SHARPENING. Here is where I apply different settings depending upon whether I'm printing or producing a .jpg and how large the image will be and so forth. For .jpgs the process is usually pretty straightforward, but for printing it can be a bit more involved sometimes. For example, I chose to sligltly over-sharpen for printing to compensate for printer dot-gain. And technically there are arguments that if you really want to optimize this process you will use different output sharpening for different types of paper. (Note that once I save the file after the first two sharpening steps outlined above, typically this third type is the only one I need to revisit for different forms of output.)

I told you that this would sound onerous.

The good news is that once you establish a workflow ike this it is actually pretty each and almost always pretty quick.

I'll leave this here, since this isn't really a print forum — but since it came up in the context of camera choice I figured it would be relevant to this particular thread.

- - -

On another topic that came up, namely battery life, at least with the 5DsR it depends a lot on how you are shooting. If are using teh optical viewfinder you can get many hundreds and, with good batteries, well over 1000 exposures per battery in many cases. I think I've gotten up to something like 1400+.

However, when I shoot landscape I use the live view monitor a lot, especially for final framing/composition and for manual focus. When I do that I don't get any more shots out of a a battery than I would on mirrorless, and sometimes I get less!

dan



Sep 16, 2023 at 06:48 PM
tomasr
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Canon 5Ds R vs R5


I believe 5Ds R is slightly sharper than non-R with that pretty aggressive AA filter. It is subtle but noticeable at 100%. I have 5Ds and it started to irritate me. And you can still get moire, but a little less of it. So it is the worst of both worlds. Ok, maybe not a big deal but I start to think that R5 has very similar resolution to 5Ds despite having 5MP less.

Vs RF system the greatest failure of 5Ds/R line is AF, and then dynamic range and high iso noise are cringeworthy. Even in live view the AF is not very reliable particularly in low light. So these fast primes become at bit of a hit and miss game wide open. If you are lucky you get every other shot in perfect focus; or else they are all slightly soft and worse. There is no point getting great glass if you can't reliably 100% nail the focus. Shooting at f/5.6 (i.e. in Studio) negates that problem but then there is no advantage over R5 either, other than using real viewfinder and camera that is sized for an adult, not a 5-year old. So basically great in studio, and usable for landscapes at ISO 100 on tripod with a lot of post-production if you expect the headline resolution.



Sep 17, 2023 at 08:24 AM
David Garcia
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Canon 5Ds R vs R5


I have the R5 and 5DSR. I’ve had the 5DSR for years now and it is still one of my favorite bodies. I tend to keep the bodies that work well for me and still have the 1DX and 5D4 as well. I shoot wildlife primarily and use the 5DSR mainly for still subjects, but will shoot action as well. 5FPS is the only drawback. I tend to keep in on the 400 DO + 1.4.


Sep 17, 2023 at 08:50 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Canon 5Ds R vs R5


BokehBeauty wrote:
I saw images (portraits) made with the Canon 5Ds R, and I’m completely taken by the “presence” and skin tone. Now I contemplate of buying a used one, even though I have the R5.

Any opinion of people who have both? My most liked type of photography is people, portrait, families, environmental portrait, fashion.


Just to remind everyone... the OF already has the R5 and is considering either replacing it with a 5DsR (or getting the 5DsR and keeping the R5?), on account of some notions about "presence" and skin tone, mostly for "people, portrait, families, environment portrait, fashion."

While the 5DsR remains a competent camera, especially if you already have one and are weighing the pluses and minuses of updating to the R5, it isn't going to produce meaningfully better (if better at all) photographs than the R5.




Sep 17, 2023 at 09:11 AM
Rajan Parrikar
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Canon 5Ds R vs R5


Just to remind everyone... the OF already has the R5...blah blah

Just to remind exactly one - the OP specified that he is seeking opinions from only those people who have used both the cameras.



Sep 17, 2023 at 10:28 AM
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