Home · Register · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username  

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Pro Digital Corner | Join Upload & Sell

       2       end
  

Continuing Saga of AI Generated Art @ State Fair

  
 
Al Trujillo
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Continuing Saga of AI Generated Art @ State Fair


You may remember the story of the AI generated piece that won first place at the Colorado State Fair in 2022. It caused a stir because the fair placed it in the same category as other photos. The story continues in 2023 as the US Patent Office has ruled against a copyright for the artist's work. You can read it here:

https://www.cpr.org/2023/09/06/jason-allens-ai-art-won-colorado-fair-feds-deny-copyright-protection/

BTW, I viewed all of Mr. Allen's pieces that he entered this year and they are highly imaginative and nicely processed. I grew to like them.

PS...the fair did make an attempt to create a new category for AI generated works of art.



Sep 07, 2023 at 02:33 PM
story_teller
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Continuing Saga of AI Generated Art @ State Fair


Actually, I think the word "photography" should not be applied to these works. It's inaccurate. These new works should be called "keyboardography" (which is more accurate) and placed in a separate category where all the "keyboard pilots" can compete. Capturing what's there and creating what's not are two distinctly separate actions.


Sep 08, 2023 at 07:46 AM
CanadaMark
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Continuing Saga of AI Generated Art @ State Fair


Personally I don't mind stuff like this. If the voters/judges liked his image the best, then it probably deserved to win. I had a look at his image and it appears very well done - it's also very obviously not a traditional photograph, and I imagine everyone voting for it knew that too. Fact of the matter is that computers are better than humans at a lot of things. When there was a shift from film to digital, there was a similar "leap" in technology and hours of expertise in a dark room could be replicated by a couple clicks in Photoshop. At the time, plenty of 'purists' argued that it wasn't real photography, or had other opinions why film was still better. The film shooters whined for a while but I imagine 99% of them are shooting digital now, and if they are still using film, well there's nothing wrong with that either.

I don't see very many people complaining about the Ai tools we have access to now for things like RAW conversions, sky replacements, and Noise Reduction, and they are huge time savers - once again, one click is replacing hours of post processing work to achieve a similar if not better result. If a computer can come up with a better photo, maybe that should serve as incentive for the other contestants to up their game, or find new unique ways to make their photographs stand out.

I have a family member who is the Chief Data Scientist for a company that is involved in a lot of AI and machine learning so I am probably biased, but I don't mind this sort of thing. Technology marches forward whether we like it or not. A solution to keep everyone happy might be to have an 'Open' category along with a separate photography-only category, but it seems like they already thought of that.



Sep 08, 2023 at 04:47 PM
chez
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Continuing Saga of AI Generated Art @ State Fair


story_teller wrote:
Actually, I think the word "photography" should not be applied to these works. It's inaccurate. These new works should be called "keyboardography" (which is more accurate) and placed in a separate category where all the "keyboard pilots" can compete. Capturing what's there and creating what's not are two distinctly separate actions.


What about the grey area in between. I’ve seen many images captured with a camera and then manipulated with processing software to the point that the final image “was not there” when the shutter was pressed.

I use Corel Painter to add painters affects to some of my photos. My best selling print has this painterly look. Now I don’t lie about things and claim I actually painted the image…if they want a print from someone who spent days ( weeks ) with a paintbrush creating their painting…that’s not me. If they want some art that has a painterly feel to hang up in their homes, I have plenty.



Sep 08, 2023 at 05:22 PM
story_teller
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Continuing Saga of AI Generated Art @ State Fair


chez wrote:
What about the grey area in between. I’ve seen many images captured with a camera and then manipulated with processing software to the point that the final image “was not there” when the shutter was pressed.

I use Corel Painter to add painters affects to some of my photos. My best selling print has this painterly look. Now I don’t lie about things and claim I actually painted the image…if they want a print from someone who spent days ( weeks ) with a paintbrush creating their painting…that’s not me. If they want some art that has a painterly feel to
...Show more

The "grey areas" are what will ultimately decimate photograhy as we currently know it. It's how AI will be justified as legitimate. Why learn a skill when a few strokes on a keyboard can provide the same result? Reality will quickly become boring. Remember, these are just my personal opinions. I'll still photograph because I know what's real in my photos and what's not.



Sep 09, 2023 at 07:00 AM
Tschanrm
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Continuing Saga of AI Generated Art @ State Fair


Generated art will find its place just as photography has. Personally the C2PA for content authentication will only continue to expand in need with professional work as generative art grows (and personally glad the new A9 III supports it) https://c2pa.org/


Nov 08, 2023 at 11:10 PM
sbay
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Continuing Saga of AI Generated Art @ State Fair


US Copyright office has made it clear that they will not register AI generated works and that the work has to be human authored.

My local fair, which runs a very big photography print competition, with thousands of entries and 10's of thousands in prize money, has banned generative AI submissions. I think this is the right approach for now for the following reasons: (1) AI generated works has nothing to do with photography / recording of light, (2) the work submitted must be that of the entrant. (3) a more appropriate place, in my opinion, would be in a 2d fine arts / digital art competition. I do not know if that part of the fair accepts AI work.

Enforcement is evolving but they can request raw files to verify. For contrast, photo composites are allowed but all the components must be the work of the entrant. So no photo bashing using stock photography.



Nov 13, 2023 at 12:22 PM
AmbientMike
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Continuing Saga of AI Generated Art @ State Fair


These software companies almost certainly stole a bunch of images online for their AI, then this guy sits at his computer entering search terms (I didn't realize I did art by Googling something.) Then he expects to be able to turn around, claim it as his, and protect it? What on earth?!?

Where did these images come from? More like a copyright violation.

And it just looks like something these sensible people that say art isn't a job, and expect free photos and other art, for the joy of photographing their stuff, expect to be able to do. Welfare cases.



Nov 15, 2023 at 11:18 AM
harvey steeves
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Continuing Saga of AI Generated Art @ State Fair


if the AI companies involved actually stole other's images - show the images. If they looked at the images and used them as inspiration to generate aspects of their own creations, well then that opens up a different can of worms as just about every photographer out there has and is doing the same thing right now. And even then, in US copyright, isn't there something about derivative artistic works?


Nov 28, 2023 at 02:42 PM
tntcorp1
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Continuing Saga of AI Generated Art @ State Fair


well, is it any different than a photographer, who drew inspiration from the work of others and use technology as a tool to produce an artistic output?

generative & inference ai technology is one such tool.

imho, it's the developer(s) and not the user(s) (of the ai system) who should be held accountable when the output is produced from non-public domain datasets.



Nov 28, 2023 at 03:31 PM
 


Search in Used Dept. 

AmbientMike
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Continuing Saga of AI Generated Art @ State Fair




tntcorp1 wrote:
well, is it any different than a photographer, who drew inspiration from the work of others and use technology as a tool to produce an artistic output?

generative & inference ai technology is one such tool.

imho, it's the developer(s) and not the user(s) (of the ai system) who should be held accountable when the output is produced from non-public domain datasets.


Are you OK with someone just coming into your house, taking anything they like that's nicer than theirs? Anything they think they can sell. Someone might like to make your TV their own.....

If not, then don't expect me to be OK if someone steals my online content for their profit.




Nov 29, 2023 at 01:30 PM
chez
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Continuing Saga of AI Generated Art @ State Fair


AmbientMike wrote:
Are you OK with someone just coming into your house, taking anything they like that's nicer than theirs? Anything they think they can sell. Someone might like to make your TV their own.....

If not, then don't expect me to be OK if someone steals my online content for their profit.



Many online photo display applications have language in the signup which states they can use your images for certain purposes. Each site is a bit different, but most have some language that states they can use your images for various reasons. I know these are buried in fine print, but that is something that should be reviewed before signing up to their service.



Nov 29, 2023 at 09:02 PM
Daniel Smith
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Continuing Saga of AI Generated Art @ State Fair


story_teller wrote:
Actually, I think the word "photography" should not be applied to these works. It's inaccurate. These new works should be called "keyboardography" (which is more accurate) and placed in a separate category where all the "keyboard pilots" can compete. Capturing what's there and creating what's not are two distinctly separate actions.


Makes sense as long as you are now practice Pixelography. Old film/wet plate/alt process types are still Photography.Pixelography



Dec 01, 2023 at 08:51 PM
jforkner
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Continuing Saga of AI Generated Art @ State Fair


Kinda curious. This thread begs the question…”Where’s the line?”

As soon as you place a filter on a lens, stack a number of images to expand the depth of field, blend more than one exposure, boost the saturation, sharpen the focus, change the contrast, crop the field of view, remove an offending object, smooth some skin, adjust the perspective, etc., haven’t you altered the image? And then there’s the world of astrophotography, which is pretty-much nothing but alterations.

Where is the line that, when crossed, is unacceptable? I submit it’s an individual-thing; not a group-thing. What’s acceptable for one may not be for another. I have no idea where that line is (or should be); for me, it changes.

Besides, show me a photo that’s completely unaltered—-I guarantee it’s not on this website. And my guess is…you probably won’t like it.


Jack



Dec 10, 2023 at 08:51 AM
AmbientMike
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Continuing Saga of AI Generated Art @ State Fair


Entering search terms into software to generate an image from content taken off people's sites without permission isn't ok and doesn't deserve a copyright

I post SOOC on here other than basic resize & sharpen for the Web pretty regularly.



Dec 21, 2023 at 12:19 AM
Daniel Smith
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Continuing Saga of AI Generated Art @ State Fair


story_teller wrote:
Actually, I think the word "photography" should not be applied to these works. It's inaccurate. These new works should be called "keyboardography" (which is more accurate) and placed in a separate category where all the "keyboard pilots" can compete. Capturing what's there and creating what's not are two distinctly separate actions.


While Digital should be Pixelography?



Dec 23, 2023 at 09:24 AM
story_teller
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Continuing Saga of AI Generated Art @ State Fair


Pixelography should be a term about the display, not the capture. A pixel (picture element) is a display/screen term, not a camera sensor term.

My personal view - If you’re enhancing an image some limited modification would be OK, but if you’re creating or altering the meaning of the original image, I personally think that’s where photography ends and fantasy begins.



Dec 23, 2023 at 10:40 AM
chez
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Continuing Saga of AI Generated Art @ State Fair


story_teller wrote:
Pixelography should be a term about the display, not the capture. A pixel (picture element) is a display/screen term, not a camera sensor term.

My personal view - If you’re enhancing an image some limited modification would be OK, but if you’re creating or altering the meaning of the original image, I personally think that’s where photography ends and fantasy begins.


What is the “ meaning “ of an image. Is infrared colours which totally distort the natural colours changing the meaning? What about just changing a colour image to b&w…is that changing the meaning? What about a slow shutter to make water smooth when it ain’t…is that changing the meaning?

When a photographer presses the shutter…maybe his meaning is to create some kind of cartoon out of the image…just like the photographer that presses the shutter to create an infrared exaggerated colour representation of the image.



Dec 23, 2023 at 05:05 PM
story_teller
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Continuing Saga of AI Generated Art @ State Fair


chez wrote:
What is the “ meaning “ of an image. Is infrared colours which totally distort the natural colours changing the meaning? What about just changing a colour image to b&w…is that changing the meaning? What about a slow shutter to make water smooth when it ain’t…is that changing the meaning?

When a photographer presses the shutter…maybe his meaning is to create some kind of cartoon out of the image…just like the photographer that presses the shutter to create an infrared exaggerated colour representation of the image.


There are two “meanings” - one is the photographer’s intent and the second is the viewer’s interpretation. I had to smile at your response.Your examples show you don’t understand the ongoing discussion. They aren’t even consistent. BTW- actually, camera sensors capture in black and white (greyscale). The demosaising process gives the resultant image color. Once you get a little further in the basics of photography, we can continue the discussion of “meaning".



Dec 23, 2023 at 10:06 PM
chez
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Continuing Saga of AI Generated Art @ State Fair


story_teller wrote:
There are two “meanings” - one is the photographer’s intent and the second is the viewer’s interpretation. I had to smile at your response.Your examples show you don’t understand the ongoing discussion. They aren’t even consistent. BTW- actually, camera sensors capture in black and white (greyscale). The demosaising process gives the resultant image color. Once you get a little further in the basics of photography, we can continue the discussion of “meaning".


You babbled a lot about meaning but said very little. So what exactly is your view of the meaning of an image. What if the photographer meant to take an image to be processed through some AI to create a fairy tale image…is this OK?

Some of my images I process through Corel Painter to give them a painterly affect. In your view, are you telling me these painterly images are fantasy?

As far as your immature comment about basics of photography…that tells me a lot about you.



Dec 23, 2023 at 10:58 PM
       2       end






FM Forums | Pro Digital Corner | Join Upload & Sell

       2       end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username       Or Reset password



This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.