RoamingScott wrote:
Nikon's reference guide is finally out, so I figured I'd see what they had to say about the new ISO dial, and if there is any hope of using "C" as "Auto"...I think I'm more confused NOW than when I started.
When the ISO sensitivity dial is rotated to C, ISO sensitivity can be adjusted using:
[ISO sensitivity settings] > [ISO sensitivity] in the photo shooting menu,
[ISO sensitivity settings] > [ISO sensitivity (mode M)] in the video recording menu,
touch controls, the i menu, and custom controls (0 f2: Custom Controls (Shooting), g2: Custom Controls）
The values that can be selected using these methods are listed below.
Still photography: ISO 100 to 64000; the camera also supports settings below ISO 100 by about 0.3, 0.7, and 1 EV (ISO 50 equivalent) and above ISO 64000 by about 0.3, 0.7, 1.0, and 1.7 EV (ISO 204800 equivalent). An additional setting of [Auto] is available in Auto Mode.
Auto ISO sensitivity control can be enabled in modes P, S, A, and M by selecting [ON] for [ISO sensitivity settings] > [Auto ISO sensitivity control] in the photo shooting menu.
The thing I'd want to test is putting the dial to C, setting the value to Auto, and then toggling back and forth from C to a dial setting to see what happens. However this documentation seems to be a bit contradictory as to when Auto can be selected.
Something I'd not really considered yet is the camera having a PASM switch in general. Your dials are all set to hard values, and you flip the switch to S, for instance, a value that is set by a dial. Does the camera suddenly only respect that one dial?
Man, I really prefer Fuji's method of just putting an A for Auto setting on every physical dial....Show more →
They have definitely hedged their bets between a vintage and modern interface which makes it a confusing mess. I would prefer if they ditched the superfluous P and S modes and had an A on the shutter speed and ISO dials. No need for the 1/3 stop increment option on the shutter dial. Front finger dial controls aperture, rear dial controls exposure comp.
Was ordering some micro-SD cards for the ZF today and while I assumed that the micro SD card would be uhs-ii compatible like the SD card slot, that's not the case. Heads up if you're ordering, the micro slot is only UHS-i compliant. This is a bit disappointing, because if you shoot backup it creates a bottleneck that doesn't need to be there.
I have to wait until Tuesday for my Zf, so I can only read what others have written and what’s in the manual.
Regarding the interaction of the ISO dial and the Auto ISO menu options, the manual seems to suggest that the dial setting overrides the ISO upper limit when in Auto ISO. It seems to me the best way to make use of that behavior is to “permanently” turn on Auto ISO in the menu with a very low upper limit. And then use the dial to adjust that limit as desired. Am I missing something?
No, when auto ISO is ON, the dial sets the baseline ISO value which the camera uses as long as correct exposure can be reached (using the liberties you have given to the camera, ie. P/S/A). If the correct exposure cannot be reached using the ISO setting on the dial, the camera then overrides the setting.
In Auto mode, interestingly the ISO dial has to be set to C for Auto ISO ON setting to be obeyed. If the camera is set to Auto, it'll use the ISO set on the dial and only go to Auto ISO when the ISO dial is set to C.
This is really quite complicated and it'll take some time to get used to all the twists and turns. I think Nikon wanted to make a camera which offers the user many different ways of operating the camera that can be traditional, modern, or just about anything in between.
The autofocus is super configurable as well.
chatcher wrote:
I have to wait until Tuesday for my Zf, so I can only read what others have written and what’s in the manual.
Regarding the interaction of the ISO dial and the Auto ISO menu options, the manual seems to suggest that the dial setting overrides the ISO upper limit when in Auto ISO. It seems to me the best way to make use of that behavior is to “permanently” turn on Auto ISO in the menu with a very low upper limit. And then use the dial to adjust that limit as desired. Am I missing something?
ilkka_nissila wrote:
No, when auto ISO is ON, the dial sets the baseline ISO value which the camera uses as long as correct exposure can be reached (using the liberties you have given to the camera, ie. P/S/A). If the correct exposure cannot be reached using the ISO setting on the dial, the camera then overrides the setting.
In Auto mode, interestingly the ISO dial has to be set to C for Auto ISO ON setting to be obeyed. If the camera is set to Auto, it'll use the ISO set on the dial and only go to Auto ISO when the ISO dial is set to C.
This is really quite complicated and it'll take some time to get used to all the twists and turns. I think Nikon wanted to make a camera which offers the user many different ways of operating the camera that can be traditional, modern, or just about anything in between.
If that’s the way it’s working, then the reference manual is wildly incorrect!
(It says:
“ If the value currently selected using the ISO sensitivity dial or [ISO sensitivity] is higher than that chosen for [Maximum sensitivity], the highest value will serve as the upper limit for auto ISO sensitivity control.”)
No, the manual is correct. If you set the max ISO of auto ISO (from the menu) lower than the dial setting then the dial setting is used. But this also means the ISO will be, in practice, fixed to the selected dial setting unless it is so high that the images are overexposed, in which case the camera will lower the ISO. If you use A, S and P, this doesn't happen very easily as the camera can usually adjust aperture/shutter speed to avoid overexposure at the selected ISO setting. If you use manual mode with auto ISO, I suppose the dialed ISO can be considered the upper bound if you set it so that the menu has max ISO set lower. Lower bound is then base ISO.
chatcher wrote:
If that’s the way it’s working, then the reference manual is wildly incorrect!
(It says:
“ If the value currently selected using the ISO sensitivity dial or [ISO sensitivity] is higher than that chosen for [Maximum sensitivity], the highest value will serve as the upper limit for auto ISO sensitivity control.”)
Ok, maybe this is more confusing than it needs to be - I should probably wait until the camera is in my hands, and then I’ll better understand. My thought was that if you turn auto ISO on in the menu, with max sensitivity to 200, and ISO sensitivity in the menu to 100, then the dial would be the thing that overrides the auto ISO maximum. At least in manual mode, where there is only one ISO choice that results in correct exposure. In A mode I guess the camera would prefer the dial setting over the menu setting if not in C.
Edited to add: I normally shoot in manual mode if using auto ISO, because I don’t like there being two variables I’m not controlling. In other modes, then having auto ISO selecting what I intended to be the maximum (worst case) ISO when not necessary isn’t a very good idea!
chatcher wrote:
Ok, maybe this is more confusing than it needs to be - I should probably wait until the camera is in my hands, and then I’ll better understand. My thought was that if you turn auto ISO on in the menu, with max sensitivity to 200, and ISO sensitivity in the menu to 100, then the dial would be the thing that overrides the auto ISO maximum. At least in manual mode, where there is only one ISO choice that results in correct exposure. In A mode I guess the camera would prefer the dial setting over the menu setting if not in C.
Edited to add: I normally shoot in manual mode if using auto ISO, because I don’t like there being two variables I’m not controlling. In other modes, then having auto ISO selecting what I intended to be the maximum (worst case) ISO when not necessary isn’t a very good idea! ...Show more →
Right; if you use the camera in manual mode, it'll do what you describe, and the dial-ISO is the maximum; not sure what the lowest ISO is. The lowest maximum ISO in the auto ISO menu seems to be 200.
But if you use e.g. aperture priority with auto ISO, and set a low max ISO in the menu, and a high ISO on the dial, then the camera will go to great lengths to set the ISO as selected on the dial, including increasing shutter speed to 1/8000s. Also in shutter priority it'll set minimum aperture (i.e. f/16, f/22, f/32 depending on the lens) before lowering ISO from the setting on the dial. This isn't a "workable" approach using those modes. But if you're strictly in manual mode then it seems to do what you describe.
I usually use aperture priority with auto ISO (on most cameras; haven't decided yet for the Zf) because sometimes the minimum shutter speed selected in the menu cannot be achieved in darkness and aperture priority will allow the camera to lower the shutter speed and keep the ISO at the set maximum value. So I get correct exposures with increased risk of subject-movement related blur which is an acceptable risk for me to get the shots. If I used manual mode in this case the camera would increase ISO to the maximum and stick to the set shutter speed and basically underexpose the images rather than let the shutter speed fall. This is for me not ideal. In very bright light, if I have an intermediate shutter speed and wide open set in M (+auto ISO) then the camera will overexpose images unless I correct the shutter speed. In aperture priority mode it'll use the minimum shutter speed where possible and resort to faster speeds to avoid overexposure and slower speeds to avoid underexposure in the extreme conditions. Additionally, when in aperture priority mode, I can use the main command dial to adjust exposure compensation without pushing any button (it's called easy exposure compensation), this is more convenient than pressing a button and turning a dial. On the Zf this is also possible to activate (setting the EC dial to C) but since there is a dedicated EC dial, for now I will work with that and if it turns out I want to go to my usual method then I'll set it to C and go with easy exposure compensation, but I haven't abandoned the EC dial yet. ;-)
On the Zf, I am currently mostly with manual mode and auto ISO for daytime shooting, but when I go into dark conditions, I am not yet sure what settings will work best.
ilkka_nissila wrote:
Right; if you use the camera in manual mode, it'll do what you describe, and the dial-ISO is the maximum; not sure what the lowest ISO is. The lowest maximum ISO in the auto ISO menu seems to be 200.
But if you use e.g. aperture priority with auto ISO, and set a low max ISO in the menu, and a high ISO on the dial, then the camera will go to great lengths to set the ISO as selected on the dial, including increasing shutter speed to 1/8000s. Also in shutter priority it'll set minimum aperture (i.e. f/16, f/22, f/32 depending on the lens) before lowering ISO from the setting on the dial. This isn't a "workable" approach using those modes. But if you're strictly in manual mode then it seems to do what you describe.
I usually use aperture priority with auto ISO (on most cameras; haven't decided yet for the Zf) because sometimes the minimum shutter speed selected in the menu cannot be achieved in darkness and aperture priority will allow the camera to lower the shutter speed and keep the ISO at the set maximum value. So I get correct exposures with increased risk of subject-movement related blur which is an acceptable risk for me to get the shots. If I used manual mode in this case the camera would increase ISO to the maximum and stick to the set shutter speed and basically underexpose the images rather than let the shutter speed fall. This is for me not ideal. In very bright light, if I have an intermediate shutter speed and wide open set in M (+auto ISO) then the camera will overexpose images unless I correct the shutter speed. In aperture priority mode it'll use the minimum shutter speed where possible and resort to faster speeds to avoid overexposure and slower speeds to avoid underexposure in the extreme conditions. Additionally, when in aperture priority mode, I can use the main command dial to adjust exposure compensation without pushing any button (it's called easy exposure compensation), this is more convenient than pressing a button and turning a dial. On the Zf this is also possible to activate (setting the EC dial to C) but since there is a dedicated EC dial, for now I will work with that and if it turns out I want to go to my usual method then I'll set it to C and go with easy exposure compensation, but I haven't abandoned the EC dial yet. ;-)
On the Zf, I am currently mostly with manual mode and auto ISO for daytime shooting, but when I go into dark conditions, I am not yet sure what settings will work best. ...Show more →
I don't understand how Shutter Priority mode with Auto ISO is not working right for you in low light. The intent of Shutter Priority is for you to change the shutter speed manually if the light gets too low. Sounds like you need Program Mode + Exposure Comp + Auto ISO (with a minimum shutter speed set in the Auto ISO menu that is high enough to stop subject motion). Even without the right minimum shutter speed set in the Auto ISO menu, you should be able to use a command dial to adjust the aperture and shutter speed combination to favor the shutter speed you need (program shift).
The thought process behind Nikon Auto ISO does baffle me. Manually setting an ISO, be it from a dial or in the menu, should turn Auto ISO off. When I set my own ISO, it's not a suggestion, lol.
Exactly. I’m sure they could fix this via software but they could have just put a damn A on the dial and had it work like every other camera with A on the dials. Whatever software solution they come up with will still be clunky because the dials will still be able to be placed in contradictory positions thanks to the presence of the PASM switch.
highdesertmesa wrote:
The thought process behind Nikon Auto ISO does baffle me. Manually setting an ISO, be it from a dial or in the menu, should turn Auto ISO off. When I set my own ISO, it's not a suggestion, lol.
It is interpreted as a suggestion by all Nikon cameras that feature auto ISO.
highdesertmesa wrote:
The thought process behind Nikon Auto ISO does baffle me. Manually setting an ISO, be it from a dial or in the menu, should turn Auto ISO off. When I set my own ISO, it's not a suggestion, lol.
RoamingScott wrote:
Exactly. I’m sure they could fix this via software but they could have just put a damn A on the dial and had it work like every other camera with A on the dials. Whatever software solution they come up with will still be clunky because the dials will still be able to be placed in contradictory positions thanks to the presence of the PASM switch.
They could leave it how it works now for setting ISO in the menu – as a suggestion. But when you have a physical dial, that should turn off Auto ISO when it's switched off of "C".
Basically, just make "C" mode on the dial the only way to activate Auto ISO even when Auto ISO is on in the menu.
ilkka_nissila wrote:
It is interpreted as a suggestion by all Nikon cameras that feature auto ISO.
But now that we have a manual ISO dial with a "C" mode, so they could make the Zf more true to being manually controlled by allowing the manual settings on the ISO top dial to deactivate Auto ISO. Simply add to the Auto ISO settings menu: "ISO Dial Priority: ON/OFF".
The logic is that it is a visual mechanical interface with the screen turned inwards so that the camera can be operated purely by looking at the dials.
C denoting that control has been handed over to the front and rear dials that don't have any external position indicators.
C doesn't hand over ISO control from the ISO dial to the main or sub command dials. It hands over ISO to
(1) The photo (or video) shooting menu
(2) touch controls
(3) i menu
(4) custom controls
If you use option 4, the main and sub command dials act like on most Nikons which have an ISO button (the custom control acts as the ISO button in that case). By turning the sub-command dial, the auto ISO can be turned ON/OFF. But if you don't program a custom function button to ISO, the main/sub dials do not affect ISO at least without a menu dive.
The Zf has quite a complicated UI. Nikon didn't design it to have a traditional manual camera's user interface (where dials have hard-coded functions) but to allow the user to pick and choose aspects of both the new and old style of control interfaces. There is a lot of flexibility but for sure the user cannot tell by looking at the top panel controls, how the camera is set up.
bluehawaii wrote:
The logic is that it is a visual mechanical interface with the screen turned inwards so that the camera can be operated purely by looking at the dials.
C denoting that control has been handed over to the front and rear dials that don't have any external position indicators.
OK so if you are in M mode and don't use C and turn auto ISO OFF:
The camera is like a Nikon film camera. ISO dial sets your "box speed" and the shutter dial shutter speed. Then if you're shooting with a manual lens like the VZ 40/1.2 you can set aperture on the lens (and also view in the top aperture screen).
C means switching one or part of a function to a modern style control without the external visual indicator.
ilkka_nissila wrote:
C doesn't hand over ISO control from the ISO dial to the main or sub command dials. It hands over ISO to
(1) The photo (or video) shooting menu
(2) touch controls
(3) i menu
(4) custom controls
If you use option 4, the main and sub command dials act like on most Nikons which have an ISO button (the custom control acts as the ISO button in that case). By turning the sub-command dial, the auto ISO can be turned ON/OFF. But if you don't program a custom function button to ISO, the main/sub dials do not affect ISO at least without a menu dive.
The Zf has quite a complicated UI. Nikon didn't design it to have a traditional manual camera's user interface (where dials have hard-coded functions) but to allow the user to pick and choose aspects of both the new and old style of control interfaces. There is a lot of flexibility but for sure the user cannot tell by looking at the top panel controls, how the camera is set up.
