akul wrote:
Bottom line is that Zf’s spec, especially the sensor isn’t enough to make the third gen cam,5 years later. . Bottom line, it needs to show improvement on sensor. All we get after all this wait is the same spec with a retro cutie cam? Really, are Z6 shooter mean that little to Nikon? So that those poor soul should just wait to get the same as Zf ? That would be infuriating. It would not be a good business decision.
Can we also talk about the abysmal battery life? Half that of my ancient Sony A73. This was the major deal~breaker for me
gheller wrote:
Can we also talk about the abysmal battery life? Half that of my ancient Sony A73. This was the major deal~breaker for me
No, we must not. Definitely not again. It is same as Z6II and only slightly better than Z6. Same battery. It's been talked about numerous times already with those cameras.
SiMuMe wrote:
No, we must not. Definitely not again. It is same as Z6II and only slightly better than Z6. Same battery. It's been talked about numerous times already with those cameras.
My apologies. I don't follow the Nikon forum, but was on the fence about the Zf, so I dropped by.
gheller wrote:
Can we also talk about the abysmal battery life? Half that of my ancient Sony A73. This was the major deal~breaker for me
I fail to see there is something to talk about. I got well over a thousand pictures with the Z6 II and several thousand with the Z8 in normal use (such as street photography, weddings, other events like that) and I could shoot through any day with two EN-EL15c batteries. I did note that EN-EL15b and 15a don't quite give the same battery capacity but I never found those to be limiting, either. The Z8 runs about four hours of stills shooting on one battery (of the kind that I'd do at a wedding, i.e. busy but not constantly shooting) and two hours of continuous video (with EN-EL15c).
I would hardly call that "abysmal". There is probably something wrong with the batteries if you get "abysmal" battery life.
BPsmith511 wrote:
Smallrig grip for the Zf got here today, way faster than I thought it would. Seems they had tons in stock. Seems very well made, on par with other Smallrig items. Grip section feels nice, and most of the bottom that touches the camera is a softer material to prevent wear.
Now just have to get the actual camera shipped. Hail Mary but hoping it gets here by the 14th when I leave for 2 weeks in Italy, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.
In at least some countries in Europe the Smallrig grip seems to come with early orders as a bonus. Nikon has those grips waiting for the cameras. I asked my local store and they asked Nikon and it was confirmed that the grip comes with the camera (but it doesn't necessarily stay that way for ever, on the Nikon website it says it is a temporary offer).
ilkka_nissila wrote:
I fail to see there is something to talk about. I got well over a thousand pictures with the Z6 II and several thousand with the Z8 in normal use (such as street photography, weddings, other events like that) and I could shoot through any day with two EN-EL15c batteries. I did note that EN-EL15b and 15a don't quite give the same battery capacity but I never found those to be limiting, either. The Z8 runs about four hours of stills shooting on one battery (of the kind that I'd do at a wedding, i.e. busy but not constantly shooting) and two hours of continuous video (with EN-EL15c).
I would hardly call that "abysmal". There is probably something wrong with the batteries if you get "abysmal" battery life. ...Show more →
Apparently it *is* an issue, since it has been discussed ad nauseam.
And it is rated for 380 shots whereas my A73 batteries are well over 700
gheller wrote:
Apparently it *is* an issue, since it has been discussed ad nauseam.
And it is rated for 380 shots whereas my A73 batteries are well over 700
Not good for a wedding photographer.
Definitely a disaster for non-Nikon shooters. Without fail, newly converts and those thinking of acquiring EN-EL15* powered mirrorless cameras come here to tell us how bad we have it. Nikon shooters just shoot the things and be happy to discover that that figure is quite pessimistic. I guess battery life is still one thing we can one up each other about.
SiMuMe wrote:
Definitely a disaster for non-Nikon shooters. Without fail, newly converts and those thinking of acquiring EN-EL15* powered mirrorless cameras come here to tell us how bad we have it. Nikon shooters just shoot the things and be happy to discover that that figure is quite pessimistic. I guess battery life is still one thing we can one up each other about.
Haha, guess so
When I went from my Sony RX10IV (similar battery life to the Z6II) to the A73, I was *blown* away at the difference.
If Nikon finds a way to upgrade this, I may very well jump ship back to Nikon (Shot the FM back in the film days)
When I went from my Sony RX10IV (similar battery life to the Z6II) to the A73, I was *blown* away at the difference.
If Nikon finds a way to upgrade this, I may very well jump ship back to Nikon (Shot the FM back in the film days)
I have an idea for you [vested interest follows]... shoot the thing and see what the fuss is about at least. It looks to me like the EN-EL15 is what Nikon's going to be at for a while. The Sony NP-FZ100 is in the same ballpark power output and just taking CIPA's rating, Nikon has work to do on the energy efficiency side.
gheller wrote:
Apparently it *is* an issue, since it has been discussed ad nauseam.
And it is rated for 380 shots whereas my A73 batteries are well over 700
Not good for a wedding photographer.
It is discussed because rather than use the camera to see how the battery life is in practice, people who have not used it comment on it based on CIPA test results without feeling the need to actually use the camera talked about.
In the CIPA test, shots are fired with 30-second intervals where the camera is on between shots, except every tenth shot where the camera is turned off and back on. This is not realistic use, as one does not typically do event photography by takïng shots at such a slow pace (it's not 1980 with 10-shot rolls of MF film). As I said the Z8 (which should be more power-hungry than the slower Zf) runs for 2 hours continuously in video recording (according to several reviews; I have not specifically tested this) and in practical fairly high-intensity wedding shooting it can be used for 4 hours of still photography (with about two thousand shots) until battery change is required (or eight hours if using two batteries in the vertical grip). The CIPA result does not reflect typical use of a mirrorless camera and should be ignored. In a mirrorless camera, the EVF/LCD ON time is what consumes the most battery and not the shutter actuation, thus the battery capacity can not be realistically measured in terms of number of shots.
Basically the CIPA test tells us that the battery lasts for a little over 3 hours of EVF/LCD ON TIME in live view time while taking those shots. In practical wedding shooting there are situations where we move to another (sub-)location and I turn the camera off, whereas there are situations where shots are taken in relatively quick succession, which explains why I seem to get 4 hours (and six times as many shots) as in the CIPA test using the z8. I tend to switch the camera off and back on frequently, bad habit I know.
First charge drained the battery quickly on the Z8 as it charged its internal battery. (It was something like 500 shots, and the battery then drained overnight.) After that first time, 2000 shots seems to be about what I get in fairly rapid event shooting. But I think the EVF/LCD ON time is a better indicator of what to expect rather than the number of shots.
SiMuMe wrote:
It looks to me like the EN-EL15 is what Nikon's going to be at for a while. The Sony NP-FZ100 is in the same ballpark power output and just taking CIPA's rating, Nikon has work to do on the energy efficiency side.
Note that the EN-EL15 (without any latter after the number) is not supported in the Z8 (and possibly also not in the Zf, as it uses the same processor). The Z8 can use the EN-EL15a, EN-EL15b, and EN-EL15c, which are all compatible with the camera. The Z8 literally does not work with the EN-EL15. EN-EL15b and c can be charged in camera. The newest type (c) has larger capacity than the earlier models.
I don't know if the Zf will support all the batteries in the series but I suspect Nikon may be phasing out the support for the EN-EL15 (without any letter a/b/c/...).
Rather than quoting the CIPA number, it's better to report how many hours of active shooting the battery will last in practice. This is likely to be more consistent across users.
ilkka_nissila wrote:
Note that the EN-EL15 (without any latter after the number) is not supported in the Z8 (and possibly also not in the Zf, as it uses the same processor). The Z8 can use the EN-EL15a, EN-EL15b, and EN-EL15c, which are all compatible with the camera. The Z8 literally does not work with the EN-EL15. EN-EL15b and c can be charged in camera. The newest type (c) has larger capacity than the earlier models.
I don't know if the Zf will support all the batteries in the series but I suspect Nikon may be phasing out the support for the EN-EL15 (without any letter a/b/c/...).
Rather than quoting the CIPA number, it's better to report how many hours of active shooting the battery will last in practice. This is likely to be more consistent across users....Show more →
That is true. snapsy did a deep dive on the power usage after the Z8 came out(linked to in this thread)
CIPA number is good because it is standard across systems. I can't argue with it. 710 vs 380 on(2280 mAh/ 16.4Wh vs 2250 mAh/15.75 Wh batteries) says the Nikon battery is weaker but not to the extent that the shots per charge suggests. In my mind, Nikon's resource usage is higher/energy efficiency is not as good, and it appears they can't improve much on it.
I very much expect the Zf to have the same requirements as the Z8 and for good reason. For anyone buying current generation cameras, all they will find in the shops is either the 15b(if lucky) or 15c. Also the optional new charger(MH-34?) only charges the the latter batteries.
The Zf would make a compact package & look great with adapted glass especially RF lenses. Can’t wait to try this with Contax G lenses!
Hoping the Zf will work with the Techart TZG adapter unlike recent Z8, Z9 that don’t.
Excited!!
SiMuMe wrote:
CIPA number is good because it is standard across systems. I can't argue with it.
It isn't a good standard because it is very rare that a photographer would take one shot every 30 seconds while keeping the viewfinder on. This may have been close to typical use in film cameras but not with autofocus high-fps rate digital cameras. It's more typical for me to turn the camera on, take several shots in a short time then turn the camera off. After a minute I do it again when something interesting happens. This gives me about 2000 shots without going into burst shooting (where shots are taken at high fps; a lot of the time I take several shots but manually timed, yet the battery usage remains similarly low as the long pauses with camera and EVF ON are basically missing from my use when doing events and general people photography).
Because (in the CIPA test) there is a disproportionally large part of the time where shots are not taken and yet the camera is with EVF or LCD on, and this makes the test result not indicative of actual performance in practical use.
710 vs 380 on(2280 mAh/ 16.4Wh vs 2250 mAh/15.75 Wh batteries) says the Nikon battery is weaker but not to the extent that the shots per charge suggests. In my mind, Nikon's resource usage is higher/energy efficiency is not as good, and it appears they can't improve much on it.
The question is rather academic. Let me explain. It was claimed earlier in this thread that the Nikon battery life is not good for weddings, as an example. Normally in wedding photography one cannot make do with just one camera because it could malfunction and so two cameras are used (minimum) as a given. If one takes two Z cameras based on EN-EL15c batteries, and one can shoot for 4 hours with both camera, that covers about 8 hours of shooting and 4000 frames (according to my own experience with the Z8 and the Z6 II which is fairly similar). I would argue that shooting more than 4000 frames is counterproductive to the economics of wedding photography (as the editing will take excessive time). Now, a full-day wedding may take more than 8 hours of shooting time and for that one would need a third EN-EL15c, but those basically cover the needs of a wedding day.
Thus there is no significant drawback to the battery usage of these Nikon cameras in wedding photography, and I would guess that most people shoot less than 12 hours / 8000-12000 frames for a single wedding.
There may be other applications such as travel photography where the viewing and composing time is proportionally greater relative to the actual shooting, and in those situations one may need to pack 2-3 batteries per whole day of shooting, and charge those overnight, if the location is really rich with subjects and there is no other activity but photography. In this case the CIPA rating may be a bit more realistic but I'd still expect to get 1000 shots per charge (based on I've experienced in use with the Z6 II and Z8). A landscape photographer may well spend a lot of time composing a single shot, in which case the 3-4 hour use time per battery may be realistic. None of these things, however, can really be predicted by looking at the CIPA test result. The only way to know is to use the camera in the real world.
I have not experienced the EN-EL15c to be limiting in Z cameras and while I also have cameras that use larger batteries, it's largely a non-issue for me. Sony cameras may be more efficient but the benefits of this are rather academic unless a specific use case requires long power-on times.
During winter landscape shooting EN-EL15 series batteries in DSLRS such as D850 may only give about 1 hour of live view shooting (-25 C temperatures) and in this case I may need to change battery once before I freeze myself, which usually happens in less than 2 hours of shooting in such conditions especially if by the water where the air is humid and there can be wind in addition to the low temperature. That's the main limitation of this type of battery for me and it was experienced with a DSLR. Using an EN-EL18 series battery can resolve this issue for the D850 if one is willing to use the vertical grip. The Z8 and certainly not the Zf do not accept the EN-EL18 but external power can probably be used(?). If one wants to find a case for better battery efficiency, it would be in such conditions.
I very much expect the Zf to have the same requirements as the Z8 and for good reason. For anyone buying current generation cameras, all they will find in the shops is either the 15b(if lucky) or 15c. Also the optional new charger(MH-34?) only charges the the latter batteries.
The Zf may have slightly lower consumption since it doesn't have the very bright Z8/Z9 EVF and is a slower camera.
In the EU, there may be restrictions on shipping chargers with consumer electronics products, so it may be that a charger doesn't come with the Zf camera (I don't know). However, the MH-25a which is available for purchase (and many of us have those) can charge all the EN-EL15 series batteries. The Z8 I purchased in May did come with an MH-25a. PD chargers can charge the EN-EL15b and EN-EL15c.
Just as an example, Sony report battery life for video recording on the A7R V as follows:
BATTERY LIFE (MOVIE, ACTUAL RECORDING)
Approx. 90 min (Viewfinder) / Approx. 100 min (LCD monitor) (CIPA standard)
BATTERY LIFE (MOVIE, CONTINUOUS RECORDING)
Approx. 145 min (Viewfinder) / Approx. 150 min (LCD monitor) (CIPA standard)
Ricci stated that the Z8 runs out of battery at around 1 hour 21 min of 8K30 10-bit recording (presumably h.265). This doesn't sound so bad, does it?
My understanding and anecdotal experience is that the Z8 battery does last for a longer time in 4K recording which is more typical usage for most, I would guess, and of course the Zf can only do 4K.
ilkka_nissila wrote:
In at least some countries in Europe the Smallrig grip seems to come with early orders as a bonus. Nikon has those grips waiting for the cameras. I asked my local store and they asked Nikon and it was confirmed that the grip comes with the camera (but it doesn't necessarily stay that way for ever, on the Nikon website it says it is a temporary offer).
Confirmed, we get the Smallrig grip with every Zf order under the condition the order is placed by the 31st of October latest.
I am on the fence to get a red Zf but guess the grip will just come in black. Oh, I am indeed from Europe, Belgium to be precise.
