RoamingScott wrote:
If you'd actually read anything I said, it was that I expected an onslaught of used bodies to hit the market in 6 months. I actually said it would sell well because Nikon users are so hungry for something well beyond the Z6/Z7 capabilities.
You have to be snide as usual. Sad.
Not trying to be snide, just trying to lighten things up add some friendly humor based on what has been going on in some of the Zf threads. Sorry, if you read it differently, or I wrote it poorly.
I do agree with you that the faster Nikon leaves the Z6/7(II) cameras behind, the better.
Desmolicious wrote:
at 2.45 he starts promoting Leica. I mean, I guess seeing how he is fondling that M.
I guess he’s just slightly wishing they went with a rear panel design more like the M instead of the Zf’s somewhat jarring rear screen hinge.
As a Leica user, now I’ve had more time to really think about the Zf I’ve decided the whole rear panel is the main reason I’m having second thoughts about buying. I thought the same about the DF after a while.
I would prefer the Zf with completely different rear control layout, more like the X-E4 with a simple joystick and no side hinge. The Zf would have been more of an exciting ownership proposition for me like that.
Saying that if you see Morten Anker’s video where he’s shooting with it for 6 days in the rain he really uses that rotating screen .
A FF sensor in the Zfc minus IBIS would be cool. Or the ultimate digital F mount camera with a digital sensor inside the original FM2a, keeping the winder and mechanical shutter. Adding a simple processor and card slot inside the film door where the film normally goes. Like an RD-1 DSLR.
In that case I wouldn't be having second thoughts at all, I would just buy it straight away.
Hardcore wrote:
I really like the brass dials.... Would have been neat to also include brass top and bottom plate but likely would have increased the weight of the camera too much I'm thinking? Maybe softer than magnesium and easier to dent/scratch etc as well?
It will be too heavy and expensive I think. The more I look at it, the more I'm liking the Zf. Just not sure how the worn out magnesium top plate would look like next to the worn out brass dials
I am from a ‘zf is not for me’ camp. With all reasons of ‘no to Zf’ that have been spelled out so many times here, so I won’t repeat agin. The issue/ irony of Zf is that the spec/ price point is much better than I anticipated. A bit too good to make the desperate z6iii waiting crowd get confused. Zf in my view, would have been better if it was released after Z6 iii. That is where it should sit, a beloved. niche camera. Z6 users form a significant portion of Z users, and Zf is not really hitting the demand of z6 update pressure. That is the fundamental problem. From reasons unknown, Nikon hit the snooze button with the Z8 first, then Zf. Frustrating further the people who just wants the proper z6iii, Zf just isn’t the right camera for those of us. Like 1bwana1 mentioned, sooner Nikon address it, the better. And the spec needs to be a cut or two above Zf as the bar has already been raised by Nikon’s own doing.
akul wrote:
I am from a ‘zf is not for me’ camp. With all reasons of ‘no to Zf’ that have been spelled out so many times here, so I won’t repeat agin. The issue/ irony of Zf is that the spec/ price point is much better than I anticipated. A bit too good to make the desperate z6iii waiting crowd get confused. Zf in my view, would have been better if it was released after Z6 iii. That is where it should sit, a beloved. niche camera. Z6 users form a significant portion of Z users, and Zf is not really hitting the demand of z6 update pressure. That is the fundamental problem. From reasons unknown, Nikon hit the snooze button with the Z8 first, then Zf. Frustrating further the people who just wants the proper z6iii, Zf just isn’t the right camera for those of us. Like 1bwana1 mentioned, sooner Nikon address it, the better. And the spec needs to be a cut or two above Zf as the bar has already been raised by Nikon’s own doing.
Nikon wants to be seen as producing trendy gear and attract those that do not primarily look at spec sheets. Thus, they launched the Zf first, rather than as an addition to an existing Z6/Z7 III. It they did that, people would not be intrigued by new features and less talk and chatter would revolve around the Zf.
Everyone who needs a Z 6 III rather than a Zf should feel confident that (a) the Z 6 III will be launched soon and (b) that it will have at least all the new features of the Zf. It may be a bit cheaper with the same specs, or it might be the same price, with a different screen and dual "full" card slots.
AcuteShadows wrote:
Nikon wants to be seen as producing trendy gear and attract those that do not primarily look at spec sheets. Thus, they launched the Zf first, rather than as an addition to an existing Z6/Z7 III. It they did that, people would not be intrigued by new features and less talk and chatter would revolve around the Zf.
Everyone who needs a Z 6 III rather than a Zf should feel confident that (a) the Z 6 III will be launched soon and (b) that it will have at least all the new features of the Zf. It may be a bit cheaper with the same specs, or it might be the same price, with a different screen and dual "full" card slots....Show more →
I disagree. And the logic is a bit flowed. If the market of Zf is truly less spec sensitive, no need to put newer processor on Zf. Thom Hogan’s speculation was the z6 sensor is not ready, and that is far more believable . Nikon can not afford playing that weird marketing game to attract people to Zf. Nikon can’t afford any more leakers. Clock is ticking. And if all we see is the re-skinned Zf with Z6 UX, they will lose many, certainly I won’t be.buying it. At that point, I will be probably quite upset. Problem with me is I have no desire to change brand, so I will find something else, like get a used Z7 or something.
akul wrote:
I disagree. And the logic is a bit flowed. If the market of Zf is truly less spec sensitive, no need to put newer processor on Zf. Thom Hogan’s speculation was the z6 sensor is not ready, and that is far more believable . Nikon can not afford playing that weird marketing game to attract people to Zf. Nikon can’t afford any more leakers. Clock is ticking. And if all we see is the re-skinned Zf with Z6 UX, they will lose many, certainly I won’t be.buying it. At that point, I will be probably quite upset. Problem with me is I have no desire to change brand, so I will find something else, like get a used Z7 or something. ...Show more →
Maybe I did not find the best words to put it: what I wanted to say is that people in this market segment do look at many things other than specs. Some may not really understand the specs. Others will only use 15% of the functionality of a pro/enthusiast camera.
That does not mean that specs would not be important. While these people do not look at the specs themselves, some of them may not want to buy a camera that is not considered "up-to-date", so how the camera is being received matters a lot.
What I don't understand is why anyone would not buy a camera because it does not offer more features than a camera that was launched before. When I buy a camera, I compare the features to those that I need, and I'll consider the price. Whether that camera had improved over a previously released camera or not would not matter to me.
The Z 6 III will most likely have the same sensor as the Zf, maybe even the same sensor and processor. If the Zf was ready, then, most likely, so was the Z 6 III, and it's just a business decision whether to launch both at the same time (which may result in a demand peak that stretches resources), or which to launch first.
AcuteShadows wrote:
Maybe I did not find the best words to put it: what I wanted to say is that people in this market segment do look at many things other than specs. Some may not really understand the specs. Others will only use 15% of the functionality of a pro/enthusiast camera.
That does not mean that specs would not be important. While these people do not look at the specs themselves, some of them may not want to buy a camera that is not considered "up-to-date", so how the camera is being received matters a lot.
What I don't understand is why anyone would not buy a camera because it does not offer more features than a camera that was launched before. When I buy a camera, I compare the features to those that I need, and I'll consider the price. Whether that camera had improved over a previously released camera or not would not matter to me.
The Z 6 III will most likely have the same sensor as the Zf, maybe even the same sensor and processor. If the Zf was ready, then, most likely, so was the Z 6 III, and it's just a business decision whether to launch both at the same time (which may result in a demand peak that stretches resources), or which to launch first....Show more →
Bottom line is that Zf’s spec, especially the sensor isn’t enough to make the third gen cam,5 years later. . Bottom line, it needs to show improvement on sensor. All we get after all this wait is the same spec with a retro cutie cam? Really, are Z6 shooter mean that little to Nikon? So that those poor soul should just wait to get the same as Zf ? That would be infuriating. It would not be a good business decision.
akul wrote:
Bottom line is that Zf’s spec, especially the sensor isn’t enough to make the third gen cam,5 years later. . Bottom line, it needs to show improvement on sensor. All we get after all this wait is the same spec with a retro cutie cam? Really, are Z6 shooter mean that little to Nikon? So that those poor soul should just wait to get the same as Zf ? That would be infuriating. It would not be a good business decision.
Yet there is always the Z 8 if you want or need more performance.
akul wrote:
Unfortunately Z8 is not the MLC camera Z6 shooters have been waiting for. It is a Goliath. It has its own market segment, but definitively different.
For some that will be true and some will have migrated to the Z8, because they just used the Z6ii as a stop-gap for a more competent non-gripped camera. The Z6 is being squeezed from many sides in Nikon‘s lineup (Z5 cheap entry, Z7 more resolution, Z8 better AF and hybrid stills/video).
This is pure speculation, but I think Nikon might actually be selling more or is at least expecting to make more profit with the Zf than the Z6, especially in Asia. You call it a niche camera, but keep in mind that ‚Z6 shooters‘ are also a niche audience
I‘m pretty sure we’ll see the Z6iii at CP+ in February though. Probably with a different sensor (Sony 33mp for example)
akul wrote:
Unfortunately Z8 is not the MLC camera Z6 shooters have been waiting for. It is a Goliath. It has its own market segment, but definitively different.
Different users no doubt want different things. I got the Z6 II in the absence of a higher-performance model and traded it in for the Z8 when it became available. However, if the Z6 III came out with the Z8's AF performance and lag-free EVF while remaining with a 24 MP sensor that would be immediately my favorite. Again, this may not be what others want ;-) That's the challenge in camera design, combining wildly different user wishes into actual realizations of camera models that are accepted by the users.
ilkka_nissila wrote:
Different users no doubt want different things. I got the Z6 II in the absence of a higher-performance model and traded it in for the Z8 when it became available. However, if the Z6 III came out with the Z8's AF performance and lag-free EVF while remaining with a 24 MP sensor that would be immediately my favorite. Again, this may not be what others want ;-) That's the challenge in camera design, combining wildly different user wishes into actual realizations of camera models that are accepted by the users.
Difference is Z6 line already has two generations, and there is a certain expectations, that would need to be addressed to keep that group happy.
Adding new lines, such as Z8, Zf , ideally should EXPAND the user base instead of canniablizing the existing user base of other marketing segment if the company wants to grow its overall user base. The way how thins have been unfolding, now, I say unfolding, as it feels to me, it just does not seem like a regular cycled Nikon's behavior, which suggests a lot of scrambling led to this 'unfolding' improvised 11th hour decision making after decision making, or say panic management, is causing fissure. My hope is simple. Now we find where we are, Z8 is out, made a lot of people happy, took some more users from Z6 than would have been, but that is fine. Zf is out, and still making a lot of people happy ( probably less then Z8 did in the US), and taking yet some more users away from Z6. In this moment, Nikon would better make the remainder of Z6 users very happy, and as quick as possible. I know full well that making everyone happy is never possible, but like I said, Z6 line has a lineage, and its successor needs to follow the lineage to keep those user base satisfied, which should not be that difficult. It is a easier group to satisfy.
akul wrote:
In this moment, Nikon would better make the remainder of Z6 users very happy, and as quick as possible. I know full well that making everyone happy is never possible, but like I said, Z6 line has a lineage, and its successor needs to follow the lineage to keep those user base satisfied, which should not be that difficult. It is a easier group to satisfy.
I think it's pretty clear that the Z6 III will more/less be a Zf in a different package. I agree it would be nice to see a Z6/Z7 III with the predictable upgrades before end of year. Nikon also likes January/March announcements though so who knows.
At the end of the day, Nikon is working with way better market information than what we have, and it's likely different to the perception of demand that us enthusiasts on forums have for various models. They also have many other markets to consider outside of North America, where different models might be more popular. A "mirrorless D500" would likely also be a huge seller for them, as the D500 outsold both the D850 and D5 combined from the same era. I wouldn't be surprised if that camera was high on their list. Getting the Z8 out as quickly as they did I think was a smart move though, especially with it's price point being a full $2500 USD less than the closest competitor, I get the impression a lot of Z6/Z7 users made the jump to the Z8 when that level of camera became so much more affordable. My guess is Nikon is keeping the largest number of users happy through their current release schedule (based on the market data they have), even if it's understandably frustrating for some folks.
CanadaMark wrote:
I think it's pretty clear that the Z6 III will more/less be a Zf in a different package. I agree it would be nice to see a Z6/Z7 III with the predictable upgrades before end of year. Nikon also likes January/March announcements though so who knows.
At the end of the day, Nikon is working with way better market information than what we have, and it's likely different to the perception of demand that us enthusiasts on forums have for various models. They also have many other markets to consider outside of North America, where different models might be more popular. A "mirrorless D500" would likely also be a huge seller for them, as the D500 outsold both the D850 and D5 combined from the same era. I wouldn't be surprised if that camera was high on their list. Getting the Z8 out as quickly as they did I think was a smart move though, especially with it's price point being a full $2500 USD less than the closest competitor, I get the impression a lot of Z6/Z7 users made the jump to the Z8 when that level of camera became so much more affordable. My guess is Nikon is keeping the largest number of users happy through their current release schedule (based on the market data they have), even if it's understandably frustrating for some folks.
Anyway, that is still all just speculation ...Show more →
To me, it is just the bulk and weight of Z8 holds no incentive. There is a reason my D810 gets very little to no use ever since 2018 when I got Z6, and I should pay attention to that. I know Z8 won’t be quite right for me. Just too big and heavy. Z Lenses are already heavy, so got to keep the pack small where I can.
akul wrote:
To me, it is just the bulk and weight of Z8 holds no incentive. There is a reason my D810 gets very little to no use ever since 2018 when I got Z6, and I should pay attention to that. I know Z8 won’t be quite right for me. Just too big and heavy. Z Lenses are already heavy, so got to keep the pack small where I can.
Luka
I'm waiting for a Z 7 in Z 9 form factor for my Zeiss lenses, as I don't need 120 fps and want the low-noise D850 sensor in a mirrorless version. I'm not sure whether Nikon will listen to me, though.
AcuteShadows wrote:
I'm waiting for a Z 7 in Z 9 form factor for my Zeiss lenses, as I don't need 120 fps and want the low-noise D850 sensor in a mirrorless version. I'm not sure whether Nikon will listen to me, though.
You are certainly proving how impossible it is to satisfy everyone
P.S.
I meant to say, I shall stop here as I find myself just repeating. And the thread is about Zf. Congrats to all who has been waiting for a retro camera. This one looks pretty good. I look forward to seeing photos taken with Zf posted here.
CanadaMark wrote:
A "mirrorless D500" would likely also be a huge seller for them, as the D500 outsold both the D850 and D5 combined from the same era.
What is your source for that information? Serial number ranges for the D850 greatly exceed those for the D500 in Roland Vink's database:
and since the D850 was much more expensive than the D500 the revenue generated from the D850 would have greatly exceeded those from the D500.
For a lower-priced camera to generate the same mount of revenue, they would have had to sell several times more D500's, assuming the data is reasonably indicative if not exhaustive. I have no idea of how the profits are from these cameras but a lack of a D500-like Z camera suggests they are no interested in making a successor.
I think Nikon, Canon and Sony don't want to make high-end cameras like the D500 with smaller sensors simply because they'd need to support them with high-end lenses in the short end, and the sales would undermine the sales of more expensive full-frame cameras and longer focal length lenses. Making high performance affordable is also contrary to the marketing message that if the customer spends more money, they get more features, performance and image quality.
Canon does have a big presence in the Super 35 cinema camera market while Sony has seemingly moved that too into full frame for the most part. It is kind of interesting that many of the leading cinema cameras are Super 35 instead of what is known as full frame, yet some manufacturers are pushing full frame into this market as well.
Notable info for me - video is 4:2:0, AF and buffer looks good/great, noise to detail looks good up to ISO8000, she does say the no-grip design is fatiguing.
Smallrig grip for the Zf got here today, way faster than I thought it would. Seems they had tons in stock. Seems very well made, on par with other Smallrig items. Grip section feels nice, and most of the bottom that touches the camera is a softer material to prevent wear.
Now just have to get the actual camera shipped. Hail Mary but hoping it gets here by the 14th when I leave for 2 weeks in Italy, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.
