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Archive 2023 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf

OwlsEyes
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p.24 #1 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf

I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, but here's a link to Morten Hilmer's video... This is not about how great the Zf is, it is not about how it works, it is not about its features. Instead, it is a video "adventure" where he is using the camera to film is YouTube video. He uses it in some pretty rough weather conditions and you see how the "maligned" flip out screen is being leveraged for his needs...
Link:

?si=kD-9hsYw2bIQuiIx

bruce

Sep 21, 2023 at 12:54 PM

Ross Martin
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p.24 #2 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf

OwlsEyes wrote:
I actually was referring to you, as you often come in pretty heavy on the negative side for a lot of new gear. The great thing, however, is that you are not a "fan boy," as I've seen you negative on Nikon, Fuji, Sony, and Canon. As such, you are an equal opportunity critic... I say this in respect, as it adds a bit of credence to the way you approach things.
On the other hand, your comments are also very "Scott-centric." Again, I say this with respect, as it is clear that this camera will not work for you and that is ok. However, your commentary is often less objective... thinking outside of your "Scott-centric" point of view.
I hope that you do not see my comment as disrespectful, as I do respect your opinion. In contrast, I try to get out of my box... and process the intent behind the introduction of a piece of gear. I owned the original X100 for about two years and thought this to be a laughable attempt to make a "Leica" from a digital-centric point of view. To be clear, I have owned Leica rangefinder bodies CL (original), M3, M8, the Hasselblad (Fuji created) X-Pan, Leicaflex SL, Contax RTS I, II, ST, S2, G1, G2, Nikon FM, FMII, F3 and a pile of medium format gear that includes the original Fuji Rangefinder 645 and Hasselblads. I have a pretty good idea about the purpose and intent of a traditional dial-based camera functions. In my mind, the Fuji X100 was a gimmick that worked. People... mostly boomers, missed the traditional dials the were replaced by programmable switches on modern cameras, and Fuji took a risk and it paid off. Five years after the introduction of the X100 and X-Pro 1, they developed a cult following that appealed to the hipster crowd. But just like the Zf... it's a gimmick. In the end, these dials are non-mechanical electronic switches that make you feel like you're using an old camera... nothing more. For the record, I happen to prefer the Fuji H series and GFX bodies because they don't pretend to be something they are not.
As for Nikon... the Zf is a marketing gamble. While the Zfc is not very popular in the US, it has done very well in Asia... I can only assume that Nikon is trying capitalize on their history and bring more people into the Z-system by appealing to their legacy... I find no fault with this. Furthermore, at $2000, I think they have produced a solid product.

However, I will not claim that the Zf is great or it is trash... I am giving Nikon credit for doing something different with respect to their brand... they took the gamble with the Df,... a camera that did not do well. I guess we'll see where this goes.
Final point... I know a lot of Canon shooters that would love to see a Canon AE-1 digital... at least Nikon is trying to give their traditional customer base something they wanted...

respectfully yours,
bruce
...Show more →

Bruce, you are always level-headed and respectful, and in my view one of the best we have on this forum. Thank you for setting a great example!

Cheers,
Ross

Sep 21, 2023 at 12:56 PM

AcuteShadows
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p.24 #3 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf

Sep 21, 2023 at 12:57 PM

oguruma
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p.24 #4 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf

stompyq wrote:
Damn.. This camera looks fantastic for street. Nice and small without a grip. I hope this inspires Nikon to make more smaller lenses instead of pumping out those f1.2 monstrosities

Well as far as I am concerned, the problem with most of Nikon's Z lenses is that they're much longer than they need to be.

The 35/50 F1.8s, for example, are almost twice as long as the 40 F2.

Sep 21, 2023 at 01:00 PM

OwlsEyes
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p.24 #5 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf

Ross Martin wrote:
Bruce, you are always level-headed and respectful, and in my view one of the best we have on this forum. Thank you for setting a great example!

Cheers,
Ross

Aw shucks Ross...

thanks for the compliment...
I'm like everyone else in that I want to think I make good choices in how I spend my money... however, I also know that what works for me may not work for everyone else. As someone who has taught high school biology for 31 years and was an instructional coach (a teacher for teachers) for four years, one learns that value of taking on someone else's point of view.

cheers,
bruce

Sep 21, 2023 at 01:02 PM

Ross Martin
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p.24 #6 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf

First rule of protecting the wallet...stay off the forums! 🤪 I feel my resistance caving. I'd like to have this as my fun walkaround cam for Florida trips in Nov/Dec. If I go for it, the Z 28/2.8 SE will be my lens of choice - owned it before and love the focal length for walkaround, and my copy had great sharpness wide open.

Edited on Sep 21, 2023 at 10:02 PM · View previous versions

Sep 21, 2023 at 01:11 PM

RoamingScott
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p.24 #7 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf

OwlsEyes wrote:
I hope that you do not see my comment as disrespectful, as I do respect your opinion.

I take very few things personally, and I didn't take your post as disrespectful. I simply have a ton of actual, real world experience with a ton of digital camera brands and models, and have refined my opinions of them into a sharp sword by which very few cameras can survive being sliced apart. None of that is to say my experience is worth more than anyone else's.

Just as you apparently see top-dial cameras as gimmicks, I see them as having a useful place, especially for street photography. It's very handy to be able to set your exposure triangle before you ever turn the camera on. Some people, myself included, simply enjoy manipulating a camera in that way for certain styles of shooting.

I don't understand the comment about top dial cameras pretending to be something they aren't. They are a stylistic subset of modern cameras that derive their control scheme from film SLRs, nothing more. That said, every single control of a classic film SLR was physical. The closer any top dial digital camera can get to that standard, the better for that particular style of body and for the people that enjoy that method of interaction with the camera controls. Auto ISO is the easiest thing to harp on here, because it's an extremely basic setting for a modern digital camera, and to exclude it from a manual control when you're designing a top dial camera is head scratching at best and infuriating at worst. You don't have to shoot any particular brand to recognize this, and it's certainly not a "Scott-centric" issue. Every other camera I've had either has a dedicated ISO button or a dial with Auto ISO, and to sacrifice a Fn button on a camera with limited customizability is just silly.

I took umbrage with Fuji for removing the normal rear LCD on the X-Pro 3 as well...now, did a classic film SLR have a rear screen...no...but did Fuji needlessly make life harder for the X-Pro 3 users? Absolutely. The same applies with Nikon adding a flippy screen to what looks to be a unit emulating a stills-centric film SLR. Fuji was at least smart enough to put the 3 way tilt screen back on the X-T5 because they realized their blunder and that stills shooters don't want flippy screens. Nikon biffed it here. They lost MY potential purchase because of my two main issues with it, and I suspect others as well. Does it mean the camera is a failure? Nope. I just suspect what was already a niche product has less appeal now and will flood the second hand market in a short time when people get their hands on them.

I am curious to hear impressions from the film-lens-adapting folks when they get their Zf in hand. Once the FTZ is added, most lenses seem like they would become quite cumberson with the center of mass well away from the camera and the focus ring perhaps uncomfortably far from the body. I say this having adapted film lenses to my digitals for a long time, and it's a common struggle on bodies with far better grips.

I didn't even mention the absolute insanity of the inclusion of a UHS-I Micro-SD slot, but most people seem fine with it, which tells me all I need to know about the target market of this camera.

Edited on Sep 21, 2023 at 01:16 PM · View previous versions

Sep 21, 2023 at 01:13 PM

akul
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p.24 #8 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf

oguruma wrote:
Well as far as I am concerned, the problem with most of Nikon's Z lenses is that they're much longer than they need to be.

The 35/50 F1.8s, for example, are almost twice as long as the 40 F2.

I am sure it needed to be as long as they are if they followed the performance / characteristics they wanted to achieve. Of course, if they change the specification goal, they can be small but not the performance they wanted to provide.

Luka

Sep 21, 2023 at 01:16 PM

ilkka_nissila
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p.24 #9 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf

I really like the Z 35/1.8 S a lot. It's my favorite of the 1.8 S line. I don't the length so much as the weight is quite modest compared to earlier highly corrected lenses such as e.g. Sigma Art or Zeiss Milvus, or even the f/2.8 zooms (the F-mount Nikon f/1.8 are not optically comparable). The big weight reduction and very high quality makes the Z 35/1.8 S a pleasure to use. It's what I pick the most often of the primes.

The compact primes, the 26/2.8 pancake and 50 MC are fairly small and even lighter than the S-line f/1.8's and should fit well the needs of the Zf users who want smaller lenses. There will be more, of course, as the Z lens lineup develops. Third-party lenses are also available.

oguruma wrote:
Well as far as I am concerned, the problem with most of Nikon's Z lenses is that they're much longer than they need to be.

The 35/50 F1.8s, for example, are almost twice as long as the 40 F2.

Sep 21, 2023 at 01:20 PM

stompyq
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p.24 #10 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf

oguruma wrote:
Well as far as I am concerned, the problem with most of Nikon's Z lenses is that they're much longer than they need to be.

The 35/50 F1.8s, for example, are almost twice as long as the 40 F2.

Yeah thats very true. Unfortunately, I tried the 40mm and immediately got rid of it. Hated it. I guess its too close to the Nikon 50 1.8G which I hate as well. The 50 1.8S on the other hand is spectacular. Maybe its not optically possible to get that level of performance and make the lens smaller. ZF looks a perfect camera for street photographers though. With a few more small lenses I can see a bunch of them ditch Fuji for Nikon

Sep 21, 2023 at 01:22 PM

highdesertmesa
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p.24 #11 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf

Removed as evidently I can�t read for context sometimes.

Edited on Sep 21, 2023 at 01:52 PM · View previous versions

Sep 21, 2023 at 01:50 PM

sebjmatthews
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p.24 #12 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf

RoamingScott wrote:
Fuji was at least smart enough to put the 3 way tilt screen back on the X-T5 because they realized their blunder and that stills shooters don't want flippy screens. Nikon biffed it here.
I take umbrage with your generalisation. You may want a tilt screen, but that does not mean all "stills shooters" do; never assume that what you, or any other individual, wants, represents what a majority want.
I am a life-long stills shooter�I've shot video on occasion, but I frankly hate shooting and editing video, especially with anything which isn't a dedicated video camera like a C300 or FS7�and I loathe these tilt screens. The only reason I sent back the X-T5 was because of that damn tilt screen, and the main selling point of this Zf for me is that it has an up-to-date articulating screen.

There is simply nothing that a tilt screen can do which an articulated screen can't, but there are things an articulated screen can do which a tilt screen can't, including both being able to face more angles and being hidden away, either for stylistic desire or for protection. (Which is my personal reason for demanding articulated screens; mine stay protected, folded away, 99% of the time.)
On top of that, articulated screens' hinges are tougher�I know several people who work as part of Fuji's UK and EU distribution, and the tilt screens are the #1 point of failure they get warranty claims for�as well as being cheaper to manufacture, and on most cameras (depends on the size somewhat) they can support better, beefier connections for faster screen refresh rates, higher resolutions, and expanded touch capability. (And before anyone says "but I want to be analogue and don't use touch: you can just turn it off, it's fine, nobody is forcing you to use it.)

Then of course you have Sony who have now combined both methods in one on the α7R V, so you can use their screen as on-axis tilting and fully articulating; literally capable of being both with zero drawbacks or compromises of any kind. It's overkill as far as I'm concerned, but regardless, it does make Fuji and Nikon's recent tilt screens look downright crude. Nobody can claim that having both tilt and full articulation in one is not the superior design, regardless of whether you prefer one or the other.

Sep 21, 2023 at 01:51 PM

SCoombs
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p.24 #13 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf

RoamingScott wrote:
I take very few things personally, and I didn't take your post as disrespectful. I simply have a ton of actual, real world experience with a ton of digital camera brands and models, and have refined my opinions of them into a sharp sword by which very few cameras can survive being sliced apart. None of that is to say my experience is worth more than anyone else's.

Just as you apparently see top-dial cameras as gimmicks, I see them as having a useful place, especially for street photography. It's very handy to be able to set your exposure triangle before you ever turn the camera on. Some people, myself included, simply enjoy manipulating a camera in that way for certain styles of shooting.

I don't understand the comment about top dial cameras pretending to be something they aren't. They are a stylistic subset of modern cameras that derive their control scheme from film SLRs, nothing more. That said, every single control of a classic film SLR was physical. The closer any top dial digital camera can get to that standard, the better for that particular style of body and for the people that enjoy that method of interaction with the camera controls. Auto ISO is the easiest thing to harp on here, because it's an extremely basic setting for a modern digital camera, and to exclude it from a manual control when you're designing a top dial camera is head scratching at best and infuriating at worst. You don't have to shoot any particular brand to recognize this, and it's certainly not a "Scott-centric" issue. Every other camera I've had either has a dedicated ISO button or a dial with Auto ISO, and to sacrifice a Fn button on a camera with limited customizability is just silly.

I took umbrage with Fuji for removing the normal rear LCD on the X-Pro 3 as well...now, did a classic film SLR have a rear screen...no...but did Fuji needlessly make life harder for the X-Pro 3 users? Absolutely. The same applies with Nikon adding a flippy screen to what looks to be a unit emulating a stills-centric film SLR. Fuji was at least smart enough to put the 3 way tilt screen back on the X-T5 because they realized their blunder and that stills shooters don't want flippy screens. Nikon biffed it here. They lost MY potential purchase because of my two main issues with it, and I suspect others as well. Does it mean the camera is a failure? Nope. I just suspect what was already a niche product has less appeal now and will flood the second hand market in a short time when people get their hands on them.

I am curious to hear impressions from the film-lens-adapting folks when they get their Zf in hand. Once the FTZ is added, most lenses seem like they would become quite cumberson with the center of mass well away from the camera and the focus ring perhaps uncomfortably far from the body. I say this having adapted film lenses to my digitals for a long time, and it's a common struggle on bodies with far better grips.

I didn't even mention the absolute insanity of the inclusion of a UHS-I Micro-SD slot, but most people seem fine with it, which tells me all I need to know about the target market of this camera....Show more →
From what I have read the "C" on the dial can basically be used for auto-ISO.

Sep 21, 2023 at 01:52 PM

RoamingScott
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p.24 #14 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf

EVF resolution isn't the whole story, as of course the Z8 and Z9 have one of the finest EVFs on the market in any camera at the same resolution as the Zf...did Nikon mention if the Zf was also 120fps? The brightness and smoothness of that EVF is a gamechanger.

edit: this was meant for James before he edited his post

Sep 21, 2023 at 01:53 PM

highdesertmesa
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p.24 #15 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf

RoamingScott wrote:
EVF resolution isn't the whole story, as of course the Z8 and Z9 have one of the finest EVFs on the market in any camera at the same resolution as the Zf...did Nikon mention if the Zf was also 120fps? The brightness and smoothness of that EVF is a gamechanger.

I�m not sure. I agree that optics, fps, processor, and sensor readout speed can make the lower res EVFs punch above their weight. If it�s on par with some of the older 5mp EVFs like the R5, I�ll be ok with that. I�ve been spoiled with the SL2-S�s EVF.

Sep 21, 2023 at 01:57 PM

SFlights
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p.24 #16 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf

It looks like you don't have to push down the dials to change shutter and ISO like on the Z fc (I found that quite annoying).

Sep 21, 2023 at 03:15 PM

Desmolicious
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p.24 #17 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf

The refresh is 60fps on the Zf.

Sep 21, 2023 at 03:24 PM

Desmolicious
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p.24 #18 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf

RoamingScott wrote:
..

I am curious to hear impressions from the film-lens-adapting folks when they get their Zf in hand. Once the FTZ is added, most lenses seem like they would become quite cumberson with the center of mass well away from the camera and the focus ring perhaps uncomfortably far from the body. I say this having adapted film lenses to my digitals for a long time, and it's a common struggle on bodies with far better grips....

Using the FTZ and an F mount lens on my Z7 is not what I would describe as pleasurable. Even the small lenses like my Nikkor 45 f2.8 AI-P are at least doubled in size, so all the compactness of that disappears. And that is the best case scenario!

Sep 21, 2023 at 03:27 PM

RoamingScott
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p.24 #19 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf

Desmolicious wrote:
Using the FTZ and an F mount lens on my Z7 is not what I would describe as pleasurable. Even the small lenses like my Nikkor 45 f2.8 AI-P are at least doubled in size, so all the compactness of that disappears. And that is the best case scenario!

And the Z7 has a real grip!

I don't think I'm all that off base on my analysis of the Zf on paper, knowing what I know about the FTZ, Nikon grips, weight of older MF lenses, etc. I hope whoever buys it likes it. That said, you'd probably have a better shooting experience if all those guts were in a Z6iii body.

And people fauning over the "SE" primes...sure, they look sort of...old...but they don't have a true clicky aperture ring. Does anyone enjoy using a clickless control ring for aperture? Do they enjoy constantly accidently changing it?

I think the "Z" styled FTZ in between a "retro" cam and old MF lens looks kinda dumb too, and since the main appeal of the Zf is aesthetics, yet another head scratcher. Will Nikon release an SE version of the FTZ next?!

All that said, the new CV Z glass would shine for this use case...fairly compact, REAL aperture controls, hard focus stops...the TRUE retro shooting experience.

Sep 21, 2023 at 03:36 PM

highdesertmesa
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p.24 #20 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf

RoamingScott wrote:
And the Z7 has a real grip!

I don't think I'm all that off base on my analysis of the Zf on paper, knowing what I know about the FTZ, Nikon grips, weight of older MF lenses, etc. I hope whoever buys it likes it. That said, you'd probably have a better shooting experience if all those guts were in a Z6iii body.

And people fauning over the "SE" primes...sure, they look sort of...old...but hey don't have a true clicky aperture ring. Does anyone enjoy using a clickless command ring for aperture? Do they enjoy constantly accidently changing it?

I think the "Z"...Show more →

That�s too bad. The Canon RF lens control rings click by default and can be changed to clickless by Canon. In any case, I�m I�ll only be using Z AF lenses when I need them, otherwise it�s CV-Z, M, CZ, or MD lenses for me.

Sep 21, 2023 at 03:41 PM

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