p.24 #1 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
FMTopFan wrote:
Thanks everyone for responding to my posts today about wanting a "Z8" features but in a Sony body instead, so I will briefly summarize all the advice:
1. A9III may not get to 40MP+ so don't count on this too much
2. If Sony lenses are important (and I don't want to let go of them), mount them on Z8.
3. Buy used A1 at around $4200 - $4500
Hopefully this summary is of use to others who are looking to achieve the same.
I welcome more feedback on workarounds while we wait for Sony (to hopefully) come out with a higher res stacked sensor body that is in 40-50+ MP range but not as expensive as the A1. ...Show more →
I think the most likely path to the camera you want, at the price you want, in the Sony system is as follows. It fits Sony's pattern.
Sony releases the A1-II at a price similar the where the A1 is now. Sony keeps the A1 model active but at a lower price, with frequent promotional discounts lowering the price even more.
Yep, the camera you want already exists. All we have to do is be a little patient so market forces have a chance to do their job.
p.24 #2 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
FMTopFan wrote:
Thanks everyone for responding to my posts today about wanting a "Z8" features but in a Sony body instead, so I will briefly summarize all the advice:
1. A9III may not get to 40MP+ so don't count on this too much
2. If Sony lenses are important (and I don't want to let go of them), mount them on Z8.
3. Buy used A1 at around $4200 - $4500
Hopefully this summary is of use to others who are looking to achieve the same.
I welcome more feedback on workarounds while we wait for Sony (to hopefully) come out with a higher res stacked sensor body that is in 40-50+ MP range but not as expensive as the A1. ...Show more →
I think that is a good summary. I don't see a way Sony is fitting a direct competitor $4K high MP stacked sensor camera into their established lineup anytime soon. I think Steve's point above about Sony selling the A1 once A1II is released at a $4K price point is the most likely. They did this for the A9 alongside the A9II for a year or more?
I think if you like Sony lenses then buying a used A1 (which typically will have no shutter wear) is the way to go.
p.24 #3 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
PIOK wrote:
Some people on this web promote Sony A1 so much that is so ridiculously obvious they are paid by Sony ...
or they are fucking blind with their playstation toy.
There is million cameras which will take a shoot and if you need A1 o do it... you are not the best photographer out there. Period
Sick of this fanboys. Take your shitty A1 and go to take a photos if you want to impress me
I'm a huge fanboy of the Sony A1.....mostly because I've owned every competing camera from Canon and Nikon (R5, R3, Z9) and they just don't do what the A1 can do for my subjects and the way I like to shoot. This is not all about AF....it is about ergonomics and button customizations as much as it is about AF. It is about things like how hard it is to judge exposure in a Z9 EVF (worst WYSIWYG of any of the top MILCs). It is about a lack of live zebras in stills on all of the others...dinky histograms with no precision at the white clipping point don't help.
If you'd like to see some photos either click on my Flickr icon under my user avatar or visit this link where I probably have a 12 image post on almost every page and often two to three per page: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1690968
Finally, you are the first person in this long thread to start throwing out profanities and insults....ProTip: maybe just skip these types of threads and stay out shooting an hour longer if they rile you up so much.
May 21, 2023 at 06:47 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.24 #4 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
osv2 wrote:
you are shooting milc not dslr, so that claim is not relevant.
mark smith didn't like the 500pf/z9 combo, it frequently back-focused on big birds and it was too long for his shooting location... he didn't have any of those problems with the z100-400 on the same z9 body.
primes are a fail for video because:
- the shot can't be accurately framed with a prime on a tripod
- you can't do crawl shots for instance with a prime, it's too restrictive
You do realize that most Hollywood movies are shot with primes. Whether primes work for video totally depends on what you are shooting. If you know what is going to happen in the scene and where the crucial elements of the scene are going to occur then primes work wonderfully for video. A good example where primes work well is for weddings. With a wedding you generally know what is going to happen and when and where it will happen and you can set up your shots accordingly and use primes and the faster aperture in dark churches can also be a big help. If you are trying to capture erratic and unpredictable action on video, then sure a zoom may serve you better, but there is lots and lots of video in which primes not only can be done but where they provide and advantage.
May 21, 2023 at 08:09 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.24 #5 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
FMTopFan wrote:
Thanks everyone for responding to my posts today about wanting a "Z8" features but in a Sony body instead, so I will briefly summarize all the advice:
1. A9III may not get to 40MP+ so don't count on this too much
2. If Sony lenses are important (and I don't want to let go of them), mount them on Z8.
3. Buy used A1 at around $4200 - $4500
Hopefully this summary is of use to others who are looking to achieve the same.
I welcome more feedback on workarounds while we wait for Sony (to hopefully) come out with a higher res stacked sensor body that is in 40-50+ MP range but not as expensive as the A1. ...Show more →
If you listed what Sony lenses you have that you would want in Nikon mount, then perhaps we could suggest what the Nikon alternatives would be and highlight what lenses you would not be able to get in Nikon mount and what compromises you would have to make. I do think the lenses you most use and you most want to use are a crucial part of the decision.
What is obvious is there isn't a new Sony body with the features of the Z8 at the price point of the Z8. It also seems likely that at least some of the Sony lenses you currently use and want to keep won't have alternatives you like in Nikon mount. So, you are going to have to wait for what you want either a Sony body or Nikon lenses. The Sony body that you want. (likely a Sony A1 with a steep price drop after the Sony A1 II comes out and has been out for awhile) is likely a couple years away. Depending on what lenses you want Nikon alternatives might be anything from a short time to never being available. Simply put it doesn't seem likely that what you want is available and you are going to have to wait.
Personally, I have had to wait a couple of years for what I wanted and although I now shoot with Sony, I will probably switch to Nikon as Nikon now has both a camera (the Z8) and lenses (400 f/4.5S, 105 f/1.4 E, 50 f/1.8S, 28 f/1.4 E) that I want even though I will adapt a couple of Sony lenses for the system as well (Voigtlander 110 f/2.5 APO Macro, and Voigtlander 65 f/2 APO Macro). I also have the advantage that my wife will keep her Sony A1 and a full set of nice Sony lenses (20 f/1.8G, 35 f/1.4 GM, 50 f/1.2 GM, Sigma 85 f/1.4 DG DN, and 135 f/1.8 GM) that I can use on that camera or adapt to Nikon.
I think even now, but especially as each system further matures such choices are going to be very personal as each system can work really well depending and what and how you shoot.
p.24 #6 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
Douglas L wrote:
The A1 has some features the Z8 doesn’t, vice versa.
As an owner of two A1s, one bought at full retail price, the other one bought new at $6000, I got to take my hat off to Nikon for such achievement at this price. Yeah, one can get a used A1 for under $4500, close to the price of a new Z8, but it’s not fair to compare the price of a newly launch camera with the used price of a two-year old camera. I am no Sony fanboy even though I probably have more money tied up in Sony cameras and lenses than most, I am very very happy for Nikon shooters
I am in the same place with two A1, an A7R V, and A7 IV these days but I did try the Z9 for a year and think the Z8 will be popular. For me personally the Z9 was too big and heavy and at the time there was no smaller Nikon with good AF to use with it or take when traveling, the Z8 will probably address this. I did place a Z8 pre-order but this past week I cancelled it deciding there was no shot I was going to capture with it that I can’t get with the cameras and lenses I have. Decided to focus more on getting out and spending the money on a workshop or travel or a great new lens like a FE 85/1.2 GM or something even better. Will be interested to see if Sony targets less than $4000 for the A9III, if the actually decide to bring one to market. After all dropping the price of the A1 to ~$4200 and introducing a new Alpha 1 mk II is more likely.
p.24 #7 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
FMTopFan wrote:
I have a full set of Sony lenses, and the only thing I want is a usable silent shutter for moving subjects (fast scan speed) at around $4000.
The Z8 checks all the boxes, including the bonus backlit buttons that I yearn for in a Sony body.
But unfortunately Nikon Z lenses are heavy and ugly (in my opinion), not to mention their heavy bodies.
So I really do not want to switch body/system to the Z8 just to get a usable silent shutter. But getting the A1 without the new tilt screen of A7RV, low res LCD, much higher price etc at this late stage of the product cycle doesn't seem to make sense right now.
This brings me to my question, how likely is it for A9 III to get 40/50+ MP and fast electronic shutter like the A1/Z8?
IMHO I think the new A9III will use the same 33mp sensor as the A7IV but stacked of course. But with Nikon and the new Z8? It has to have Sony rethinking any new camera. Especially for the price of the Z8 and the features it has. Highly doubt Sony will have a higher mega pixel sensor and highly doubt it will be in the $4K range since the A9II is $4,500. There was a $500 price increase for the A7IV. And I was thinking Sony will do the same with the A9III.
p.24 #8 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
AZHeaven wrote:
IMHO I think the new A9III will use the same 33mp sensor as the A7IV but stacked of course. But with Nikon and the new Z8? It has to have Sony rethinking any new camera. Especially for the price of the Z8 and the features it has. Highly doubt Sony will have a higher mega pixel sensor and highly doubt it will be in the $4K range since the A9II is $4,500. There was a $500 price increase for the A7IV. And I was thinking Sony will do the same with the A9III.
The uncomfortable truth is that Nikon will very likely continue to hemorrhage market share, Z8 pricing aside. The general market is the Z6/R6/A7(non-R) shooters. Nikon is considerably behind here with no signs of catching up any time soon.
I highly, highly doubt Sony cares about the Z8 pricing strategy in the long term and will continue to price their bodies somewhat absurdly as they've always done, simply because they can.
May 21, 2023 at 09:04 AM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.24 #9 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
FMTopFan wrote:
Hi osv2, I found your labelling my "hypothetical camera" as "bizarre" quite confusing.
that's not surprising, it was your post.
you asked for an "A7R6 with stacked sensor like Z8 at only 8-10 fps", which no company has ever done, nor will they ever do it, so it can't be "like z8".
stacked sensors have a high production cost, and there is no market for an 8-10fps stacked sensor, because it serves no purpose... additionally, the a7r series has never had a stacked sensor, it's about resolution.
p.24 #10 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
If Sony made a huge jump, like 100+ MP, I guess a stacked sensor could make some sense as it might be hard to get that much data off the sensor reasonably quickly using the current non-stacked sensor technology. This is assuming readout couldn't be improved somewhat given the current non-stacked sensor technology.
I'm just trying to provide a scenario, where it "might" make sense. Not arguing that it absolutely makes sense. And I'm not saying this would happen in the a7R VI, just looking down the road.
osv2 wrote:
that's not surprising, it was your post.
you asked for an "A7R6 with stacked sensor like Z8 at only 8-10 fps", which no company has ever done, nor will they ever do it, so it can't be "like z8".
stacked sensors have a high production cost, and there is no market for an 8-10fps stacked sensor, because it serves no purpose... additionally, the a7r series has never had a stacked sensor, it's about resolution.
p.24 #11 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
Steve Spencer wrote:
You do realize that most Hollywood movies are shot with primes.
You do realize more and more Hollywood movies are being done in CGI - no lenses required.
As for birds and wildlife, which are the more prevalent subjects for cameras like the A1 and Z9, that genre of professional cinematography is done using zoom lenses 99% of the time.
p.24 #12 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
RoamingScott wrote:
The uncomfortable truth is that Nikon will very likely continue to hemorrhage market share, Z8 pricing aside. The general market is the Z6/R6/A7(non-R) shooters. Nikon is considerably behind here with no signs of catching up any time soon.
I highly, highly doubt Sony cares about the Z8 pricing strategy in the long term and will continue to price their bodies somewhat absurdly as they've always done, simply because they can.
Thank you for saying that about Sony pricing. I feel the same way. And that's sad. I did a price comparison if I were to change back to Nikon. Well....that ended quick! Even with selling all my Sony gear it isn't going to happen!
I switched to Sony (A7III) in 2018 from Nikon. Now the A7IV. I still stand by my thought that Nikon rushed out the first Z6 & Z7 to counter the Sony A7III. They could have had a better release if they at least came close to the A7III. But nice to see Nikon albeit slowly coming around with the Z8.
May 21, 2023 at 09:47 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.24 #13 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
molson wrote:
You do realize more and more Hollywood movies are being done in CGI - no lenses required.
As for birds and wildlife, which are the more prevalent subjects for cameras like the A1 and Z9, that genre of professional cinematography is done using zoom lenses 99% of the time.
The number of Hollywood movies being done exclusively with CGI is still minuscule and when they do use shoot images with lenses and almost all such movies do they almost always use primes. My point was simply primes can certainly be used for video work and they often are. What matters is the what, where, and how you are shooting. Certainly wildlife, in wild settings, in less than optimal light is video that will almost always use a zoom. I'm not much interested in that type of video, but if you are then yes by all means definitely consider a zoom for that type of work. That is consistent with my larger my point, what lens makes sense for video depends on the subject, setting, and the extent you can predict what is going to happen, and there is a ton of video work when a prime makes a lot more sense than a zoom.
Osv2 was making some ridiculous claims (video with a prime is a fail because you can not frame properly with a prime), which is only true if you can't predict what is going to happen. If you can predict what is going to happen and where it is going to happen primes can (if you can place the camera where you want) provide great framing. This may not often work with wildlife shooting, but it often works with lots of types of shooting.
p.24 #14 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
Steve Spencer wrote:
The number of Hollywood movies being done exclusively with CGI is still minuscule and when they do use shoot images with lenses and almost all such movies do they almost always use primes. My point was simply primes can certainly be used for video work and they often are. What matters is the what, where, and how you are shooting. Certainly wildlife, in wild settings, in less than optimal light is video that will almost always use a zoom. I'm not much interested in that type of video, but if you are then yes by all means definitely consider a zoom for that type of work. That is consistent with my larger my point, what lens makes sense for video depends on the subject, setting, and the extent you can predict what is going to happen, and there is a ton of video work when a prime makes a lot more sense than a zoom....Show more →
The even larger point is, what does anything done in fantasyland have to do with either the Sony A or the Nikon Z8/Z9?
May 21, 2023 at 09:59 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.24 #15 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
molson wrote:
The even larger point is, what does anything done in fantasyland have to do with either the Sony A or the Nikon Z8/Z9?
Well since asked I would have thought that it was obvious if primes are used in the highest level of video shooting, then that demonstrates that primes are not "a fail," as was claimed. And I connected that point to the Sony A cameras and Nikon Z8/Z9 cameras by noting generally for wedding (which will often be shot on video with such cameras) primes work well for video.
p.24 #16 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
/be wrong
/be proven wrong
/immediately change the subject
a tale as old as time
May 21, 2023 at 10:04 AM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.24 #17 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
tsdevine wrote:
If Sony made a huge jump, like 100+ MP, I guess a stacked sensor could make some sense as it might be hard to get that much data off the sensor reasonably quickly using the current non-stacked sensor technology. This is assuming readout couldn't be improved somewhat given the current non-stacked sensor technology.
that's an interesting thought... one of the biggest problems that i see with it is that doing it with current technology would be expensive and difficult, in part because it would require 2x more on-sensor ram and the associated interfaces, aka all of the associated wiring and connections between layers.
so as you inferred, it would most likely revolve around new technology, probably a different kind of stacking, which sony has most recently done with the 52mp full aspect ratio exmor-t sensor in the new xperia phone: "The sensor features a 2-layer transistor pixel stack technology, with a photodiode in the first layer and a pixel transistor in the second layer, which works together to capture more light and reduce image noise."
no mention of a ram layer there, so it's nothing like the ancient stacked z8 sensor that he asked for; the emphasis with that new smartphone sensor seems to be on getting better p.q., i think that sony claims that it has better d.r. than a ff sensor?
p.24 #19 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
FMTopFan wrote:
I have a full set of Sony lenses, and the only thing I want is a usable silent shutter for moving subjects (fast scan speed) at around $4000.
The Z8 checks all the boxes, including the bonus backlit buttons that I yearn for in a Sony body.
But unfortunately Nikon Z lenses are heavy and ugly (in my opinion), not to mention their heavy bodies.
So I really do not want to switch body/system to the Z8 just to get a usable silent shutter. But getting the A1 without the new tilt screen of A7RV, low res LCD, much higher price etc at this late stage of the product cycle doesn't seem to make sense right now.
This brings me to my question, how likely is it for A9 III to get 40/50+ MP and fast electronic shutter like the A1/Z8? ...Show more →
Honestly, I don't think Z8's spec and price is really surprising. More than half a year ago, people were already expecting Z8 to be a baby Z9, and with Z9 for $5.5k, the most Z8 can command is $4.5k. So $4k for Z8 is really about right. So I think Sony has seen it coming for a long time too, and whatever strategy it needs to respond, it has already formulated.
I don't think A93 will hit 40MP+ since it will come while A1 is still the flagship. I think it will be around 33MP for $4k.
Regarding A1, in places like Europe where it's illegal for manufacturers to set minimum prices, the price has already dipped and should reflect market demand, so I don't think it will cost much more than Z8 there. In US, it had practically a sale end of last year for $6k, and I expect it to hit $5.5k pretty soon during sale. However, for it to hit price of $4-4.5k, I think that will be end of 2024, after A1ii is released.
A few years ago, Nikon had a strategy of cash flow first, market share second, while Sony was doing the opposite, trying to gain market with better pricing. Now it has swung the other way. Nikon realized that it can't lose more market share, and is willing to sacrifice some short term cash gain instead, while Sony wants to harvest the return with the market share it has gained. So I'm afraid for the next couple of years, Sony cameras will be relatively more expensive than the Nikon counterparts.
p.24 #20 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
1bwana1 wrote:
I think the most likely path to the camera you want, at the price you want, in the Sony system is as follows. It fits Sony's pattern.
Sony releases the A1-II at a price similar the where the A1 is now. Sony keeps the A1 model active but at a lower price, with frequent promotional discounts lowering the price even more.
Yep, the camera you want already exists. All we have to do is be a little patient so market forces have a chance to do their job.
Yep, except what will be a 3+ year old camera design that doesn’t get firmware updates is not the camera I want. I want what Nikon now offers. All of its latest tech in its latest camera for $4,000. The now 2+ year old Sony “flagship” camera doesn’t even have all the AF and other improvements in its current “lower model” R5, and which by the time the A1M2 is released may be at the Z8 price point but 3-4 years old tech.
Why is it controversial on this board to acknowledge that Nikon knocked it out of the ballpark with the Z8 and Sony has nothing close to competing at a similar price point?
I want what Nikon now offers. All of its latest tech in its latest camera for $4,000. 
The now 2+ year old Sony “flagship” camera doesn’t even have all the AF and other improvements in its current “lower model” R5, and which by the time the A1M2 is released may be at the Z8 price point but 3-4 years old tech.