p.17 #1 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
RickPJ wrote:
..
So my question is, comparing the Z8 or the A7RV what is it that I may need to do that the camera cannot do and do well?
You may need to shoot fast action (e.g., sports) using the electronic shutter without risking rolling shutter. I wish you good luck with the A7RV. The reason I shelled out for A9 series is the stacked sensor.
p.17 #2 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
TT1000 wrote:
You may need to shoot fast action (e.g., sports) using the electronic shutter without risking rolling shutter. I wish you good luck with the A7RV. The reason I shelled out for A9 series is the stacked sensor.
Exactly. I would be perfectly happy if Sony made their z8, based on A1, at same pricepoint as nikon Z8 is.
But it has been discussed why nikon made such a move. I also guess that sony want to differentiate A7R from A1 line much stronger than nikon with z8/z9.
p.17 #3 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
osv2 wrote:
overpriced niche primes with repetitive extremely long focal lengths are not a complete lens lineup, and no doubt that's one reason why sony has taken over most of the nikon market share.
That was one point I made in a recent article - Nikon's got a competitive offering if you need a Z9/Z8 and long primes, but they just don't feel like they're innovating below 300mm or with the bodies besides high frame rate PJ/BIF stuff.
p.17 #4 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
The Nikon Z8's price tag sure is a step in the right direction for a full frame stacked sensor body, but there is still some ground to cover getting it out of the "ridiculous" zone.
A single Sony A1 will buy you 12 washing machines, so raw materials have little to do with its stratospheric price. The cost comes from cutting edge innovation and large investments in extremely high tech manufacturing on a small scale. The only way to get that cost down is increasing the scale, and Nikon (as well as Olympus and Fuji) buying considerable numbers of stacked sensors is a good thing, not only because it means competition but also because it helps increase the scale of manufacturing.
Back when Sony started off mirrorless full frame, and aps-c was still really the norm due to the high cost of full frame cameras, there was an interview with a Sony guy that literally said just that: the only way to bring full frame to a larger audience, was increasing the numbers of full frame sensors. I assume that the Nikon Z8 is a step towards reasonably priced full frame stacked sensor cameras.
I know that I won't be throwing another €7000,- at a future Sony A1mkII, but will continue using the A1 until prices have come down considerably to e.g. current Nikon Z8 level. Luckily, Sony made the A1 with hardware that is state of the art and very dependable, it should last a long time in normal use.
p.17 #5 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
arbitrage wrote:
What the Z8 has made me realize is just how large the margins must be on the A1.
I mean Nikon has to buy that custom designed stacked sensor from Sony Semi and can still cram it in and sell it for $4K.
Meanwhile Sony who makes all these sensors in house is selling the A1 (which is probably 90% of the parts of an A7IV which they sell for $2.5K) for $6.5K. Now maybe Sony Semi is so separated from Sony Consumer Electronics that they don't get any favourable pricing on the sensors but I'm sure they could work out a deal between friends...Show more →
The US is a big market. Europe is much bigger.
B&H:
Z8 $4000
Z9 $5500
A1 $6500
A1 18% more than Z9
A1 62.5% more than Z8
Europe
Z8 €4600
Z9 €5550
A1 €5990
A1 8% more than Z9
A1 30% more than Z8
Australia, a very small market:
Z8 $7000
Z9 $8000
A1 $8169
A1 2.1% more than Z9
A1 17% more than Z8
In a few weeks, EOFY sales will make A1 price of $7000 - $7200 very likely.
I don't know who sets the price, Nikon Inc, or Nikon Distributors.
US pricing may well be misleading though, with regards to margins for the manufacurers.
p.17 #6 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
In Europe, there are strict consumer protection laws and the minimum warranty is two years. Also there are higher taxes than in the US (VAT, income tax, social security fees etc.) which pay for free school, relatively low-cost health care, low-cost day care, and free university for everyone in many European countries. Although cameras are cheap in the US, one needs to spend a lot of money for a lot of things that Europeans in many countries don't need to pay for.
I would expect the prices are set so that each distributor or subsidiary for Nikon (as well as Nikon Japan which owns most of the distributors) makes a profit. This price can be different depending on the country due to different economies, legislation and people's purchasing power and what type of products they're willing to buy and what prices etc.
p.17 #7 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
Choderboy wrote:
The US is a big market. Europe is much bigger.
B&H:
Z8 $4000
Z9 $5500
A1 $6500
A1 18% more than Z9
A1 62.5% more than Z8
Europe
Z8 €4600
Z9 €5550
A1 €5990
A1 8% more than Z9
A1 30% more than Z8
Australia, a very small market:
Z8 $7000
Z9 $8000
A1 $8169
A1 2.1% more than Z9
A1 17% more than Z8
European prices include VAT of 20-25% depending on country, and I'm sure some EU import tariffs. US prices are misleading because one has to (or at least should) pay local sales tax, ranging from 0-10% depending on the State, in e.g. Virginia the Z8 would come to $4,240.
If you bought a Z8 in Europe and then bought it tax-free you would on average get 18% back (Global Blue and other tax free companies take the rest of the percentage as profits - great business to be in...) and in such case the Z8 would come to $4,085 - which is pretty much the same price as in the US without taxes.
p.17 #8 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
hiepphotog wrote:
I see that the Nikon people here have entirely different needs than most Sony people; that is they are looking for longer than 300mm but less than $10k. For any other cases, I don't imagine the Z8 and Nikon's current lens line-up would offer enough of an incentive to switch (and enough pressure for Sony). I surely wouldn't say no to a price drop in Sony land, or a few more major firmware updates. But to think the niche of birders/shooters who want longer than 300mm but less than $10k as enough for Sony to change anything in their pricing structure is unfound IMO.
Z8 is, at best, presenting Nikon's best effort to leapfrog Sony, but it only managed to do so on a few fronts compared to the previous gen. Sony (A1) and lagged on a few others. The A1 already got through its early adopter phase when people were willing to pay the full price to get theirs. The A1 is now sold on the used market at the same price (or slightly higher) than the Z8. So even harder to switch to Nikon. Maybe the Z7III with the current disruptive low pricing might change that....Show more →
It seems to be that the Big Three camera manufacturers operate with different philosophies.
Sony came from way behind and pushed innovation and open lens system. I think the latter has proven to be a real strength for them, even if the short term bean counter would prefer a closed system at this point. Sony is, in lack of a better analogy, the Tesla of the camera world. And you definitely pay an innovation tax/premium at this point.
Nikon is, at this point, more like the Toyota of the camera industry. Think Land Cruiser or 4runner/Prado. They are sticking to tech they know work and is reliable (gear box, transmission, instrument panels, etc). It may not be as sexy as a Tesla, but then again, you can put 300k miles on a Land Cruiser... Owner tend to be loyal and own it for the long term.
I guess that makes Canon a BMW/Mercedes type of outfit. Great tech, but you pay a lot for it.
Regardless, it all depends on your needs which car you get, and how long you keep it. Some people (us Sony owners) tend to happily upgrade to the latest/greatest, buy all the new GM glass, and we're happy to pay that innovation premium.
But to be honest, if you are happy family weekend shooter, who dabbles in both photo and video, there is something to be said for getting a Nikon Z8, a 24-120/4 S, and a 50/1.8 S and be there. For the long run.
p.17 #9 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
patotts wrote:
It seems to be that the Big Three camera manufacturers operate with different philosophies.
Sony came from way behind and pushed innovation and open lens system. I think the latter has proven to be a real strength for them, even if the short term bean counter would prefer a closed system at this point. Sony is, in lack of a better analogy, the Tesla of the camera world. And you definitely pay an innovation tax/premium at this point.
Nikon is, at this point, more like the Toyota of the camera industry. Think Land Cruiser or 4runner/Prado. They are sticking to tech they know work and is reliable (gear box, transmission, instrument panels, etc). It may not be as sexy as a Tesla, but then again, you can put 300k miles on a Land Cruiser... Owner tend to be loyal and own it for the long term.
I guess that makes Canon a BMW/Mercedes type of outfit. Great tech, but you pay a lot for it.
Regardless, it all depends on your needs which car you get, and how long you keep it. Some people (us Sony owners) tend to happily upgrade to the latest/greatest, buy all the new GM glass, and we're happy to pay that innovation premium.
But to be honest, if you are happy family weekend shooter, who dabbles in both photo and video, there is something to be said for getting a Nikon Z8, a 24-120/4 S, and a 50/1.8 S and be there. For the long run.
...Show more →
I like your comparison to the car companies but my problem I would like to own each type of car and tailor it to different usage. That is why I own both Sony and Canon and even bought and tried a Nikon Z9 and a ton of Z glass for a year. Big experiment. Question to myself is will the Z8 make me want o try again? Really wonder now what the A9 III and EOS R5 II will be.
p.17 #10 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
Choderboy wrote:
I don't know who sets the price, Nikon Inc, or Nikon Distributors.
US pricing may well be misleading though, with regards to margins for the manufacurers.
At B&H, the Sony A1 is currently CA$8772 (using B&H's online currency conversion). The VG-C4EM grip is an additional CA$537, for a total price of CA$9309.
The same package in Canada sells for CA$7999 with the current Sony promotions. That's a 16% premium for US buyers, so Sony's margins in the US market must be pretty hefty.
p.17 #12 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
hiepphotog wrote:
...But to be honest, if you are happy family weekend shooter, who dabbles in both photo and video, there is something to be said for getting a Nikon Z8, a 24-120/4 S, and a 50/1.8 S and be there. For the long run.
Well I think the Z8 is massive overkill for a "happy family weekend shooter" but your intent to insult Nikon users is noted.
The fact is that all of these higher priced and equipped cameras FAR exceed the needs of the overwhelming number of casual photographers. Many pros also. And on that subject. Those of us who make money with cameras are often WAY over-equipped for what we do most every day.
In a way, the car analogy is (perhaps) unintentionally apt. Whether you are driving to work or driving to play, nobody needs a Mercedes or BMW. They simply want them. Maybe the BMW will do 150 miles per hour. The fact that it does is completely irrelevant to its use. It is about bragging rights not results.
The manufacturers know this. Yet they continue to build and offer cameras that are far more capable than necessary for (guessing) 95% of those who will buy them. And this number includes pros who kit themselves to shoot in conditions and at subjects that they never shoot.
But this is all fun. It is supposed to be fun whether it is work or play. So if this added nit-picking detail give one joy? Why not. Its just money.
May 17, 2023 at 10:53 AM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.17 #13 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
RickPJ wrote:
So my question is, comparing the Z8 or the A7RV what is it that I may need to do that the camera cannot do and do well?
you've already been corrected over that noob comment, no need to continue proving that you aren't knowledgeable enough to understand the differences between stacked vs. unstacked sensors, and why it matters.
p.17 #14 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
RoamingScott wrote:
Anyone who has bought Sony in the US with the EDU discount knows exactly how much Sony is skimming off their products.
I don't think the EDU discounts represent much information on camera hard costs. Sony is an electronics company at its core. It tends to view pricing, discounts, and deals from that perspective. They are also sometimes manipulative in this, using price to reward. I think right now if one maintains good personal relationships with sellers, he could buy an A1 at about par with the Z9 or even a bit lower. I know of one local store who has a couple in stock that they would likely sell for a sub $5,000 amount if offered. Due to some unique and accidental circumstances I was able to acquire some brand new A1s when the A1 was first available for about the current cost of a Z8. I passed this savings on to a couple of people here on FM. I don't think Sony was selling these to me at a loss, and the discount in this program was much larger than EDU.
I am just trying to point out that markets and pricing are complicated and fluid. A lot of factors can drive things. But, I think overall looking at the hard costs of producing a high end camera, the margins are pretty large. It is the soft and fixed costs, that have a big impact on the net profit that shows up on the financial statement. Discounts on cameras that produce volume and revenue are the primary way to affect these costs.
p.17 #15 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
osv2 wrote:
you've already been corrected over that noob comment, no need to continue proving that you aren't knowledgeable enough to understand the differences between stacked vs. unstacked sensors, and why it matters.
You really like to double-down on the insults, don't you.
I have wasted enough time on you. I have to go earn some money with my camera. As I have done for many many years.
p.17 #16 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
Does anyone here (thread is under the Sony forum) see Nikon camera releases as potential bodies they could purchase without having to offload their Sony lenses with the FE to Z adapters AF adapters that are available.
I am set on upgrading to an A7RV early next year, but I do like the option that I could always keep my FE lenses if I did move over to Nikon. At the same time, I have had mixed results with adapting autofocus EF lenses to my Sony (Sigma MC-11) and my Fuji (Fringer) cameras. My Loxia's I am not too worried about, but the 35mm GM is one of my all time favourites.
p.17 #17 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
RickPJ wrote:
Well I think the Z8 is massive overkill for a "happy family weekend shooter" but your intent to insult Nikon users is noted.
How is that statement an insult? If anything, it cover me very well :-)
Of course, the Z8 is a pro machine, so is a A7R5, A1, etc, but most photographers are happy amateurs and not pros, nor any intentions to become pros. My point was simply that the Z8 more than good enough to buy, use and keep for the long run, esp if you are a hybrid shooter.
p.17 #18 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
Butterfingers wrote:
Does anyone here (thread is under the Sony forum) see Nikon camera releases as potential bodies they could purchase without having to offload their Sony lenses with the FE to Z adapters AF adapters that are available.
I am set on upgrading to an A7RV early next year, but I do like the option that I could always keep my FE lenses if I did move over to Nikon. At the same time, I have had mixed results with adapting autofocus EF lenses to my Sony (Sigma MC-11) and my Fuji (Fringer) cameras. My Loxia's I am not too worried about, but the 35mm GM is one of my all time favourites. ...Show more →
I would certainly not budget my purchases on a possible lateral brand move at an undecided time in the future. You should buy the best native glass (that you can afford) available to you on your native mount as a first choice, always.
Good news is, by time you possibly move to Nikon next year the 35/1.2 will be out
p.17 #19 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
Butterfingers wrote:
Does anyone here (thread is under the Sony forum) see Nikon camera releases as potential bodies they could purchase without having to offload their Sony lenses with the FE to Z adapters AF adapters that are available.
I am set on upgrading to an A7RV early next year, but I do like the option that I could always keep my FE lenses if I did move over to Nikon. At the same time, I have had mixed results with adapting autofocus EF lenses to my Sony (Sigma MC-11) and my Fuji (Fringer) cameras. My Loxia's I am not too worried about, but the 35mm GM is one of my all time favourites. ...Show more →
From what I've ready, many e-mount lenses (including GMs) perform very well using techart's AF adapter. The main issue is rather its mechanical reliability, as I've read at least a few reports of it failing (mostly because of some pin). I think it's a path worth considering as there are too many great FE lenses to just leave behind (e.g. 50/1.2GM which doesn't have a direct counterpart due to size&weight difference).
As for the other part of your question, I'd like to try Z8 out of curiosity. I'd like to see how eyeAF works, the quirks of managing AF in general, what's the actual battery consumption, how the increased size&weight feels in day-to-day use, what is it avout the EVF that people seem to like, etc.
On the other hand, lately I'm coming to a realization I should rather be downsizing than expanding my gear collection (funny thing some shops are already offering a modest 5% discount on Z8 here) ...
May 17, 2023 at 01:48 PM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.17 #20 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
1bwana1 wrote
I don't think the EDU discounts represent much information on camera hard costs. Sony is an electronics company at its core.
it's hardly just sony that offers edu discounts, both adorama and b&h for example have done it with multiple brands of gear, for instance: https://www.adorama.com/g/students
nikon can afford to whore out the z8 pricing because it's a z9 in another wrapper, with no innovation and no improvements from what they did with the z9 a year and a half ago.
i'm not aware of any company that's done anything like that; nikon recouped the z9 r&d costs already, they don't need the z8 to pay for that, it's just dead tech from what was already done.
of course z8 is going to cripple future z9 sales, why pay $1500 more for the same camera? i imagine that nikon figured out that they lost a lot of sales to people who wanted a smaller camera, and refused to buy the z9 boat anchor.
nikon stunts like the z8 pricing and no mechanical shutters reek of desperation to me, it's a calculated gamble from a conservative company that knows it lost it's leadership position in the market years ago.
z8 represents a lot of value, but if i'd paid $1500 more for the z9 i'd be upset.
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