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Archive 2023 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount

  
 
rscheffler
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


rscheffler wrote:
As for the magenta fringing problem with this lens and some R bodies - that's a different problem from tweaking for the sensor stack and is dependent on the sensor's design. The stated cameras that will exhibit this fringing are all FSI sensor tech

exdeejjjaaaa wrote:
R5, R6II are FSI too :-) ... so keep inventing

PS: R3 is the only BSI sensor that Canon managed to make for RF cameras...


What am I inventing?? Yes, R6II is FSI and I own it. Some of my rangefinder lenses adapted to it result in magenta color shift towards the edges/periphery of the image. I will have to revisit my tests of my rangefinder lenses on a loaner R5, but don't recall it having as noticeable a problem.

In any case, color shifts are typically related to a mismatch of optical design (short exit pupil distance) and sensor design (pixel well size, depth, microlenses), though with steep ray angles, differential IR blocking/absorption by the sensor stack can also result in color shift with BSI sensors, but IME this is blue/cyan rather than magenta. For Cosina to avoid the magenta color shift problem with some Canon FSI sensors, they would have had to more significantly redesign the lens optics so that peripheral ray angles would travel more perpendicular to the sensor plane. When the previous post stated Cosina optimized the lens for the RF mount, which Cosina specifically stated on their webpage for this lens (both RF and Z mount versions), and which you disputed, the implied meaning of such 'optimization' would be minor spacing adjustments to compensate for sensor stack thickness differences between Z and RF mount. Not wholesale optical redesign to avoid color shifts more inherent with FSI sensors than BSI.

Given that you mostly post on the Canon board, I don't know how much you follow Cosina's Voigtlander lenses for Leica M mount, which is the mount for which the 50/1 was first released. Or if you follow adapting rangefinder lenses to other mirrorless systems and how those compare in performance to the same lens models optimized for mirrorless. On Cosina's website, the block diagrams for lens models available as Leica M optimized and mirrorless optimized are exactly the same, including this 50/1, but also numerous other models. Yet numerous reviews indicate, including those by Fred Miranda himself, that Voigtlander's Leica M mount version lenses perform best on Leica sensors and the Sony FE mount versions perform best on Sony sensors. Adapting M mount versions to Sony often results in poorer image quality (increased field curvature, astigmatism) due to incompatibility with Sony's sensor stack thickness. This is solid evidence that Cosina indeed does optimize optics for whichever mount/sensor system the lens is marketed. The optical block diagrams published in their marketing materials won't show the subtle spacing differences between elements.



Sep 19, 2023 at 02:56 PM
sebjmatthews
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


It's bizarre to me that people still think vague block cutouts can indicate lens quality and/or optimisation. Like a little while back when people were claiming the RF 50mm f/1.8 is a rehoused 1950s lens because the simplified, small block diagrams contained similar shapes.


Sep 20, 2023 at 02:37 PM
szwayko
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


rscheffler wrote:
This is solid evidence that Cosina indeed does optimize optics for whichever mount/sensor system the lens is marketed. The optical block diagrams published in their marketing materials won't show the subtle spacing differences between elements.


I use/used R5 and R - on some Voigtlanders lenses. On R - VM21/3.5, VM28/2.0II, VM50/1.5II, VM50/1.2 - have a magenta corners. The same lenses on R5 were OK. R5 has new much better matrix than old matrix in R. On R lenses like VM35/1.4II, VM75/1.5 have no problem.

Some lenses like 50/1 has the same optic on versin M, Z, RF, but some has a different construcion - like APO 50/2.0.




Sep 21, 2023 at 01:57 PM
Robin Smith
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


It is good to see that Canon has allowed this lens to proceed, assuming they will not slap them with a cease and desist notice. Hopefully we willl see more VC lenses. I assume that Canon are getting less antsy because VCs have only manual apertures and manual focus and Canon now has a good presence in the market and so is less concerned about competition from this kind of niche lens. The real prize for most of us remains competitive 3rd party AF-capable lenses from Tamron and Sigma.


Sep 21, 2023 at 02:29 PM
Juha Kannisto
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


Map Camera did an early blog article about the lens and there's a YouTube video as well:
https://news.mapcamera.com/KASYAPA/voigtlandernokton50mmf1asphrfmount/

Use the language selector at the top of the page to view the page in English (auto-translation). I think no translation is available for the YouTube video linked there.

Cosina has still not announced the official release date for the lens but they might announce it any day now (usually such announcements happen on Fridays). I suppose it will be on-sale sometime in the latter half of this month.



Oct 03, 2023 at 05:20 AM
Juha Kannisto
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


Today Cosina announced the official release date for this lens as 26th of October:
https://www.cosina.co.jp/news/%e3%83%95%e3%82%a9%e3%82%af%e3%83%88%e3%83%ac%e3%83%b3%e3%83%80%e3%83%bcnokton-50mm-f1-aspherical-rf-mount-%e7%99%ba%e5%a3%b2%e6%97%a5%e3%81%ae%e3%81%8a%e7%9f%a5%e3%82%89%e3%81%9b/



Oct 04, 2023 at 01:05 AM
rscheffler
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


rscheffler wrote:
This is solid evidence that Cosina indeed does optimize optics for whichever mount/sensor system the lens is marketed. The optical block diagrams published in their marketing materials won't show the subtle spacing differences between elements.

szwayko wrote:
I use/used R5 and R - on some Voigtlanders lenses. On R - VM21/3.5, VM28/2.0II, VM50/1.5II, VM50/1.2 - have a magenta corners. The same lenses on R5 were OK. R5 has new much better matrix than old matrix in R. On R lenses like VM35/1.4II, VM75/1.5 have no problem.

Some lenses like 50/1 has the same optic on versin M, Z, RF, but some has a different construcion - like APO 50/2.0.


Thanks for that additional info. It seems the R5 is less likely to induce the magenta corners than many other Canon R cameras.

From what I recall, the Voigtlander 50/2 APO might be the only lens from them with an actual difference in element design/configuration between mirrorless and Leica M mount options.



Oct 04, 2023 at 03:20 PM
philip_pj
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


CV make each version as specific to each brand's lens ergonomic idiom as they can, and I feel they make each version for what they think users want. We tend to think they are same due to same block design, but no. There are trade-offs:

35/2 APO-Lanthar E
63 x 67mm; 352 grams; MFD 0.35m; AOV 62.2 degrees

35/2 APO-Lanthar VM
56 x 58mm; 304 grams; MFD 0.5m; AOV 63.6 degrees

F4 MTF is much the same, but f2 is very different indeed - the Sony/Nikon version is about the same outside the centre region, but the 'magic donut' grants the EVF cameras an extra ~6% of 30 lpmm and 40 lpmm, and that is big, as though they rather different lenses and in a significant way.

Which would you choose, dear reader? You have to really like very small lenses to give up the gains in IQ where you often place subjects at f2 - and better MFD, prob better imaging at common close distances too. They don't publish MTF for other lenses in common. So if it is smaller in CV lenses, caveat emptor applies. Might account for M reviews of this one too, they are missing out where M 35mm lenses get used most.



Oct 06, 2023 at 01:11 AM
dumchidumchi
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


A quick look from Map Camera in Japan...
https://youtu.be/dGlOIwxezKY?si=KzsTJaE2wKO9KhzS
From 07:36 to 07:53, it looks like Eye-Detection and Tracking are working with this manual focus lens.



Oct 15, 2023 at 07:22 AM
philip_pj
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


removed.

Edited on Nov 11, 2023 at 04:48 PM · View previous versions



Oct 16, 2023 at 12:29 AM
Deathchant
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


dumchidumchi wrote:
it looks like Eye-Detection and Tracking are working with this manual focus lens.

I have a lot of Zeiss ZE lenses. Can someone tell me how I can see the Eye-Detection and tracking? Which settings do I need to have on my R6?



Oct 16, 2023 at 08:38 AM
rscheffler
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount



Deathchant wrote:
I have a lot of Zeiss ZE lenses. Can someone tell me how I can see the Eye-Detection and tracking? Which settings do I need to have on my R6?


I believe in the AF menu group, tab 1: AF method: the first option face + tracking; Subject to detect: People; Eye detection: Enable. Tab 2: Focus guide: on. You might also have to check the options in tab 5: Initial Servo AF pt for face + tracking.




Oct 16, 2023 at 08:55 AM
dumchidumchi
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


Deathchant wrote:
I have a lot of Zeiss ZE lenses. Can someone tell me how I can see the Eye-Detection and tracking? Which settings do I need to have on my R6?

Replied by Map Camera in Japan on the comment section...
"yes. This lens has electronic contacts, so the EOS R5 can use eye detection and tracking features."
It looks like for the Eye-Detection and Tracking to work, the manual lens needs electronic contacts so it can communicate with the RF camera.



Oct 16, 2023 at 09:16 AM
Deathchant
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


dumchidumchi wrote:
Replied by Map Camera in Japan on the comment section...
"yes. This lens has electronic contacts, so the EOS R5 can use eye detection and tracking features."
It looks like for the Eye-Detection and Tracking to work, the manual lens needs electronic contacts so it can communicate with the RF camera.

All my Zeiss lenses are EF-mount (with electronic contacts) so that's not the problem.

rscheffler wrote:
I believe in the AF menu group, tab 1: AF method: the first option face + tracking; Subject to detect: People; Eye detection: Enable. Tab 2: Focus guide: on. You might also have to check the options in tab 5: Initial Servo AF pt for face + tracking.

Ah I can see what the problem is. I didn't put the AF method on face+tracking because I cannot magnify then. I want to be able to magnify as soon as the face+tracking+eyedetect does not work well enough, and that means I constantly have to switch between face tracking+1 point AF.

If I put the settings like you suggested, it works (but I cannot use magnify), but it only works on people, not on my cats (even though I've selected animals for eye detect).

Sorry for going offtopic, but thanks, I appreciate the help!



Oct 16, 2023 at 09:31 AM
rscheffler
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount



rscheffler wrote:
I believe in the AF menu group, tab 1: AF method: the first option face + tracking; Subject to detect: People; Eye detection: Enable. Tab 2: Focus guide: on. You might also have to check the options in tab 5: Initial Servo AF pt for face + tracking.

Deathchant wrote:
Ah I can see what the problem is. I didn't put the AF method on face+tracking because I cannot magnify then. I want to be able to magnify as soon as the face+tracking+eyedetect does not work well enough, and that means I constantly have to switch between face tracking+1 point AF.

If I put the settings like you suggested, it works (but I cannot use magnify), but it only works on people, not on my cats (even though I've selected animals for eye detect).


Can you assign the back buttons? For example, assign the AF-ON button to use the face+tracking option and the * button for single point AF? While it's still two separate buttons, they're side by side and should be quick to switch between the two.



Oct 16, 2023 at 09:02 PM
johnctharp
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


dumchidumchi wrote:
A quick look from Map Camera in Japan...
https://youtu.be/dGlOIwxezKY?si=KzsTJaE2wKO9KhzS
From 07:36 to 07:53, it looks like Eye-Detection and Tracking are working with this manual focus lens.


That longitudinal CA is pretty wicked... a big reason to go with more modern options, IMO



Oct 17, 2023 at 07:53 AM
rscheffler
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


The 50/1 Nokton is a modern optic, but not an APO designation. Like any lens, its design is a set of compromises.

Keep in mind this lens was first released for Leica M mount and designed with the preferences of M users in mind. Here the priority is typically 'as small as possible.' In this space and at its price point, it's a great performer and a bargain compared to the Leica 50/0.95 Noctilux. It's sharp wide open at near distances thanks to its floating element design, which its less expensive, slightly slower stablemate, the Voigtlander 50/1.2 isn't able to match. This all in a very small package, for its speed, in part due to the large ground aspherical front element ($$$$).

Our own Fred Miranda reviewed it here with comparison against other fast 50 M-mount options, and the Sony FE 50/1.2, one of the best fast 50s available today. His full summary is here.

From Fred:

Pros:
High resolution and contrast from wide open. It performed better than I expected for a F/1 lens.
Clean specular highlights inner structure thanks to the grinding aspherical process.
Better than average close up performance: The floating design delivers great resolution from MFD to infinity.
Compact (short) and light for a 50mm f/1 lens (482g, measured).
Great build quality with tight tolerance construction.
Well corrected for distortion (negligible pincushion).
Aperture mechanism with 12 straight blades provide defined 12-pointed sunstars.
Great lateral CA correction.

Cons:
High optical vignetting renders 'cats eye' bokeh balls towards the corners.
Pronounced outwards field curvature may cause unevenness in the rendering when shooting wide open.
Noticeable purple fringing and axial CA in areas of high contrast when shooting wide open.
One of the most expensive Cosina lenses at $1,800 (Although way less than the 13K Leica).

-------------------

All that said, does this lens make sense for Canon R system users looking for a high performance 50mm lens? Given the excellent optical qualities of the RF 50/1.2L (though also not immune to LoCA), plus the convenience of AF at about the same price point, the Voigtlander 50/1 will be a difficult sell.

IMO justifiable excitement about this lens is that it's officially Canon endorsed/licensed and hopefully a prelude to more Voigtlander lenses becoming available in Canon RF mount.




Oct 17, 2023 at 10:01 AM
Deathchant
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


rscheffler wrote:
Can you assign the back buttons? For example, assign the AF-ON button to use the face+tracking option and the * button for single point AF? While it's still two separate buttons, they're side by side and should be quick to switch between the two.


Yes! Did that (face tracking on * and AF-ON button for single point AF). Thanks mate!

Regarding the 50/1 Nokton: despite it is not APO-labeled, I had hoped that the 2 aspherical elements would at least decrease the CA a bit more than the footage shows...
In Europe it will be more than 1800 euro's I believe....Tough sell....I hope it will have that typical Voigtlander/Zeiss look.



Oct 17, 2023 at 10:18 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


The recently announced Voigtlander 50mm f/1 Nokton for Canon RF mount is not yet available for pre-order on Cameraquest.com. You'll need to make a $100 deposit.

If you want more information or want to pre-order it, you can visit this link:
https://shop.cameraquest.com/voigtlander-canon-eos-rf-lenses/voigtlander-eos-rf-50mm-f/1.0/

If you haven't had a chance to check out the Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1 for the M-mount, I've written a review on it. According to Cosina, this new Canon RF version is expected to perform similarly in terms of resolution, contrast, and rendering on Canon RF cameras.

Voigtlander 50mm f/1 Nokton Review
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1741370












Oct 19, 2023 at 03:50 PM
rscheffler
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


Deathchant wrote:
Regarding the 50/1 Nokton: despite it is not APO-labeled, I had hoped that the 2 aspherical elements would at least decrease the CA a bit more than the footage shows...
In Europe it will be more than 1800 euro's I believe....Tough sell....I hope it will have that typical Voigtlander/Zeiss look.


The aspheric elements combined with floating element design definitely help make the Voigtlander 50/1 a sharp lens with minimal spherical aberration wide open at nearer distances. If you're curious, check Fred's review.

This reminds me a bit of the evolution of ultra-fast Canon 85mm lenses. The EF 85/1.2L was a sharp aspheric and floating element design with low spherical aberration, but strong bokeh fringing. The EF 85/1.4L IS improved LoCA/bokeh fringing performance but it can still be noticeable in high contrast areas. The RF 85/1.2L incorporates Canon's BR optics designed to virtually eliminate LoCA:



https://hk.canon/en/consumer/BR-Lens/article



Oct 19, 2023 at 08:17 PM
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