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Archive 2023 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount

  
 
johnctharp
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


rscheffler wrote:
I'm not 100% sure that Canon's RF lenses carry lens profiles that adjust for focus shift. But think it's a logical possibility because the system appears to prioritize wide open focus whenever possible.


As obvious as this sounds, unfortunately, I've only seen evidence to the contrary, i.e., the EF 50/1.2L issues, and even the focus shift in the new RF 100/2.8L macro in middle focus distances. I assume that there are complicated reasons for this to not be implemented, with one I can imagine being the challenge of having to confirm focus and then adjust focus before firing the shutter / initiating capture, meaning that there would be a delay involved at certain shooting aperture and focus distance combinations.

Personally, I'd be fine with it being a toggle, along with other solutions like shooting slightly stopped down at focus distances that are more prone to focus shift when the shooting aperture is set to something small like f/8.

Just not seen any evidence of such correction.




Feb 23, 2023 at 11:45 PM
rscheffler
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


Yes, I'm speculating.

I'd be surprised if it was a capability of the EF system, including adapted to RF, but could see it for RF considering the substantially more powerful processors in the cameras, potentially more detailed communication with lenses (the additional contact pins?) and greater reliance on software corrections.

I recently re-read a DPR story about a tour through Canon's lens manufacturing facility. One of the takeaways was that Canon was optically analyzing each lens and loading its profile into the lens. That was for EF lenses. At the time it sounded like it was more for diagnostic purposes down the road if/when the lens required servicing. But I could see that expanded. For example Panasonic's contrast detect DFD focus system relies on profiles of lens characteristics to know whether a lens is focused in front or behind the subject. That info is normally only available with phase detect AF systems (admittedly their DFD contrast detect AF capabilities still lag PDAF).

The RF 100 macro's focus shift is likely a complex matter. But it's also correctible by using the SA control ring on the lens. See the review by Jordan Steele and his post about it here.



Feb 24, 2023 at 12:09 AM
bobbytan
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


Me too. The Voigtlander APO-Lanthar 125mm f/2.5 SL is a phenomenal lens. It was, by far, the best lens I had ever owned. Better than most Zeiss glass.

rscheffler wrote:
Yes, I'm also more interested in the Apo Lanthars.





Feb 24, 2023 at 11:38 AM
Juha Kannisto
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


This Voigtländer Nokton 50/1.0 for RF mount was finally announced officially, and is expected to be on-sale from October (specific on-sale date not announced yet).

Cosina's announcement page (Japanese):
https://www.cosina.co.jp/news/%e3%83%95%e3%82%a9%e3%82%af%e3%83%88%e3%83%ac%e3%83%b3%e3%83%80%e3%83%bc-nokton-50mm-f1-aspherical-rf-mount-%e7%99%ba%e5%a3%b2/

Cosina product page for the lens (English):
https://www.cosina.co.jp/voigtlander/en/rf-mount-lenses/nokton-50mm-f1-aspherical/

There's a note on the product page stating:
*1 Magenta coverage may occur on the periphery of the image with EOS R, RP and R6 depending on shooting conditions.

Cosina's product page for the lens (Japanese):
https://www.cosina.co.jp/voigtlander/rf-mount-lenses/nokton-50mm-f1-aspherical/

New product introduction video (Japanese):
https://youtu.be/aS7E-seVrGA?si=0GoUY-NClae5--wi

Official price in Japan is 240K yen (excluding tax) but Map Camera price is 214200 yen including tax: https://www.mapcamera.com/item/4530076236011



Sep 15, 2023 at 01:30 AM
burningheart
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


Thanks for the update, just sent my sales rep a message to contact the CDN distributor when it will be available in Canada so they can order one in for me.

I get a kick out of the video opens with the lady shooting a Fujifilm X-E4 yet the video is about the RF mount lens.



Sep 15, 2023 at 02:47 PM
netexpress
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


Apo Lanthars and fast wide primes please!


Sep 16, 2023 at 06:56 PM
IndyFab
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


I am a little in the dark, when did Canon change it's view on 3rd party lens on the RF system.

From an earlier thread, folks were really not to happy about Canon's stand on not allowing 3rd party lenses..

Good to see Canon has reconsidered there position.

Bring it on!! >>> Voigtlander, Zeiss, Sigma, Tamron

The APO Voigtlander lenses are stellar for landscape .



Sep 17, 2023 at 09:55 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


It's fantastic to see Cosina expanding into the Canon RF mount. They've recently introduced some very successful lenses. What's great about this is that Canon photographers can now use these lenses without needing any extra adapters and the lenses will be optimized for the Canon sensor stack.

Before this, Cosina mainly made lenses for the Sony E-mount, with some modifications from their M-mount versions. However, things have changed recently, and they've shifted their main focus to the Nikon Z-mount and now to Canon.

Here are the current Z-mount lenses that might become options for the Canon RF mount in the future:
https://www.cosina.co.jp/voigtlander/en/z-mount/



Sep 17, 2023 at 11:21 AM
burningheart
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


IndyFab wrote:
I am a little in the dark, when did Canon change it's view on 3rd party lens on the RF system.

From an earlier thread, folks were really not to happy about Canon's stand on not allowing 3rd party lenses..

Good to see Canon has reconsidered there position.

Bring it on!! >>> Voigtlander, Zeiss, Sigma, Tamron

The APO Voigtlander lenses are stellar for landscape .


Personally I don't think Canon ever changed their view. IMHO I think Canon's mindset is that they want to protect their RF mount electronics from anybody using the electronics without having a licensing agreement with them to use it. Yes they want to maintain selling their lenses but from a business perspective they don't want every manufacturer out there manufacturing RF lenses without any payback to Canon. Canon is essentially protecting their investment and control of the RF electronics.

A lot of people expressed their displeasure of what appeared that Canon was against 3rd party when some were forced to cease production, but who knows what goes on behind closed doors. IMHO I think Canon wanted to have the advantage of selling their lenses exclusively until such time they worked out licensing agreements to their satisfaction.



Sep 17, 2023 at 11:23 AM
sebjmatthews
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


From what I've gathered, both in regards to Canon and how other manufacturers operate, is that the only 'wall' Canon has actually thrown up was in regards to Viltrox copy & pasting Canon's coding. That was actual theft, so Canon got the lawyers involved and shut it down.
Legally, there's nothing Canon can do to stop another company from reverse-engineering the various protocols and selling autofocus RF products. Many companies have made autofocus EF-RF adapters for years now, for example. If Canon actually tried to stop someone else from developing from scratch then courts all over the world, especially throughout Europe, would rake them over the coals. Anti-monopoly laws exist specifically to prevent companies from creating wholly closed ecosystems, and even larger companies like Microsoft, Apple, and Disney, have been unable to get around them.

The catch is that developing your own products to work on a new mount from scratch is a lot more expensive than coming to a working agreement with the manufacturer. This is what we saw with Fujifilm; Tamron and Sigma both said they wanted to get onto Fuji XF, but it was just too expensive for them to do it alone. They waited until Fuji were willing to sell them a license, which saved them a lot of money and allowed them to keep their prices down, compared to if they had had to figure everything out on their own.

Canon, I expect, are or have been doing the same thing as Fuji. They haven't actually blocked third-parties from developing for RF—again, except Viltrox, which was a different scenario—but they also haven't offered any help, either. And not offering those licensing deals is effectively the same as blocking third-parties, even if it isn't technically blocking. Third-parties could have developed for RF this whole time... it just wasn't financially viable. Also, Tamron are plenty busy making Sony lenses, and Sigma have had their hands full with the L-mount, so those two in particular were never going to rush to develop for RF, anyway. Why sink tens or even hundreds of millions into developing for RF when you can just keep turning over a profit with your current work while you wait for Canon to offer you a cheaper route?

Again, this is speculation based on years of following and at times being part of the industry. Obviously I am not a Canon executive and can not categorically say that this is what's happened. But it's what has happened with other companies, and everything around Canon RF lines up with it.


Anyway, I'm very keen to try this Voigtlander. I gave the ZY Mitakon 50mm f/0.95 III a shot on RF and quite liked it, but it's too heavy to balance well even on the R5, and the build quality was poor and it developed many problems in just a few months of use. I would trust that Voigtlander would put the thing together much better, and it's about 100g lighter, which isn't quite as much as I'd like, but better than nothing. Every Voigtlander lens I've ever used has always impressed me with its colour rendition, too, even if the contrast is quite often lacking.



Sep 17, 2023 at 12:08 PM
exdeejjjaaaa
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


IndyFab wrote:
I am a little in the dark, when did Canon change it's view on 3rd party lens on the RF system.


no changes about AF lenses - they only let it non-competition = MF lenses




Sep 17, 2023 at 12:18 PM
exdeejjjaaaa
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


Juha Kannisto wrote:
There's a note on the product page stating:
*1 Magenta coverage may occur on the periphery of the image with EOS R, RP and R6 depending on shooting conditions.


that was apparently

Fred Miranda wrote:
and the lenses will be optimized for the Canon sensor stack.




they simply re-housed Z-mount version , nothing was optimized



Sep 17, 2023 at 12:21 PM
rscheffler
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


Do we know it's just the Z mount version with an RF mount? Cosina seems to have been pretty deliberate about tweaking optical performance for various system sensor stack requirements. As for the magenta fringing problem with this lens and some R bodies - that's a different problem from tweaking for the sensor stack and is dependent on the sensor's design. The stated cameras that will exhibit this fringing are all FSI sensor tech whereas most other systems this lens has been released for use BSI sensors where this won't be as much of a problem. So this lens was likely designed with BSI in mind and unfortunately some of Canon's FSI sensors may not mesh well with it.

sebjmatthews wrote:
From what I've gathered, both in regards to Canon and how other manufacturers operate, is that the only 'wall' Canon has actually thrown up was in regards to Viltrox copy & pasting Canon's coding. That was actual theft, so Canon got the lawyers involved and shut it down.


I'm speculating but any company that has already reverse engineered Canon's EF protocols could just put an RF mount on their Canon lenses and it should work, right? Maybe not as optimally as with actual RF code, but it'll still work given how well EF lenses work on RF. So why aren't we seeing this if they 'legally' reverse engineered EF protocols ages ago? There has to be more to it - some sort of protection of the RF mount. If the RF protocol is encrypted, and a third party breaks the encryption to reverse engineer, is that still fair game?



Sep 17, 2023 at 09:03 PM
tr1957
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


rscheffler wrote:
I'm speculating but any company that has already reverse engineered Canon's EF protocols could just put an RF mount on their Canon lenses and it should work, right? Maybe not as optimally as with actual RF code, but it'll still work given how well EF lenses work on RF. So why aren't we seeing this if they 'legally' reverse engineered EF protocols ages ago? There has to be more to it - some sort of protection of the RF mount. If the RF protocol is encrypted, and a third party breaks the encryption to reverse engineer, is that still fair
...Show more
Supposedly the Samyang/Rokinon 14mm and 85mm AF lenses and Viltrox 85mm AF lens used the EF protocol. If true it seems like Canon shut down any AF third party lens with an RF mount.



Sep 17, 2023 at 09:40 PM
sebjmatthews
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


The Samyang lenses are a slightly different story. It's been confirmed through EU distributors that the Samyang-branded units were ceased simply because the covid lockdowns made production in large numbers difficult, and since Samyang distribute to the most regions, they couldn't keep up with demand and ditched the line rather than trying to drip-feed everyone. The Rokinon and Bower branded versions continued to be manufactured for a while, as those brands are not as widely sold and production could keep up with their requirements. Rokinon still had both AF lenses listed on their website until earlier this year; well after Canon had put an end to Viltrox's designs.

What we don't know, and probably will never know, is if Rokinon/Bower finally pulled the plug on their AF RF lenses because they got scared by what happened to Viltrox, or if they just weren't selling well enough to bother making them, or if production on them got even harder. In any case, it doesn't seem that Canon had anything directly to do with it, unlike with Viltrox.

Again, legally Canon can not stop people from figuring out the various systems on their own, and using the EF protocols can't be stopped either (or nobody would be able to make EF-RF adapters), so it will never be as simple as just "Canon shut down any AF third party lens".
We know, because they acknowledged it, that Viltrox were copying something they didn't have a license for, rather than doing the legwork themselves.
With Samyang, Rokinon, and Bower, we know the supply chain put an end to one brand, but the other two will remain a mystery.
We can make an educated guess that for Sigma, Tamron, and Tokina, it has always been best to simply wait for Canon to offer a licence rather than invest in development from scratch.
I wouldn't speculate on Canon policy, or make generalisations about what everyone can or can't do, beyond this. There's too much we don't and will never know.

Of course, not that any of this really matters to a Voigtlander which is essentially a manual lens with a generic EXIF chip glued to it



Sep 18, 2023 at 10:20 AM
rscheffler
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


Do we know if Sigma, Tamron, Tokina, etc., actually licensed anything from Canon for the EF mount? My impression is that they all reverse engineered it, hence the reason why lens compatibility often broke with new EF mount cameras, firmware updates, etc. Going back to the 90s, when I worked at a pro-centric camera store, we had a few customers who bought Tokina lenses and ran into problems with inconsistent AF performance due to some sort of miscommunication between the lenses and cameras.

This Tokina blog post talks a little about their transition to AF lenses in the 80s/90s. My interpretation is they reverse engineered:

"But finally we came to a certain point when an algorithm analysis of AF system and mechanical design was done and the development of Tokina's original lenses became possible."

"AF developed by Tokina engineers performed great response on all 4 mounts Nikon, Canon, Pentax and Minolta α-mount. From here, we started converting Tokina best manual focus lenses such as AT-X 300 (300mm f/2.8), SL 400 SD (400mm f/5.6) and AT-X 828 (80-200mm f/2.8) into AF version thus involving Tokina into the new and long expansion to the huge Auto Focus lens market."

Maybe they still licensed use of EF mount but were not provided the protocols? But that doesn't make sense to me.



Sep 18, 2023 at 04:50 PM
IndyFab
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


rscheffler wrote:
Do we know if Sigma, Tamron, Tokina, etc., actually licensed anything from Canon for the EF mount? My impression is that they all reverse engineered it, hence the reason why lens compatibility often broke with new EF mount cameras, firmware updates, etc. Going back to the 90s, when I worked at a pro-centric camera store, we had a few customers who bought Tokina lenses and ran into problems with inconsistent AF performance due to some sort of miscommunication between the lenses and cameras.

This Tokina blog post talks a little about their transition to AF lenses in the 80s/90s. My interpretation
...Show more

I remember after a firmware update on the R5, some folks using Sigma complained they began having issues using there EF lenses adapted to RF



Sep 19, 2023 at 11:58 AM
sebjmatthews
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


rscheffler wrote:
Do we know if Sigma, Tamron, Tokina, etc., actually licensed anything from Canon for the EF mount?

We know some stuff, but obviously not the entire picture, especially given that all three brands have made EF autofocus lenses for 30+ years.

All three started out by reverse-engineering the EF mount.

Sigma eventually did have a deal with Canon, starting around 2017, which is why their lenses started having in-camera corrections and focus on par with most first-party lenses. This was confirmed in a few interviews at the time. Additionally, shortly before the RF mount was launched, word was going around that Sigma and Canon had come to a major arrangement where Sigma would keep the EF, EF-S and EF-M mounts 'alive' with new lenses and continuing production on their existing ones, while Canon shifted all their own production over to RF. Whether that was ever true or not, I don't know, but if it was then it's somewhat ironic that Sigma actually stopped EF production almost right away, while Canon has continued to produce a few key EF lenses.

Tamron allegedly also had a deal with Canon right before the RF launch, but I doubt they did and if that was the case then I don't think anything came of it anyway. Neither Canon nor Tamron has ever said anything about having any kind of deal themselves. I'm 99% certain they figured out everything on their own.

There has never been anything to suggest that Tokina ever bought a license from Canon. They seem to have stuck with what they originally reverse-engineered.

There is a difference between licensing a mount's protocols and having some kind of production agreement with a manufacturer. Buying a license just means you get to save a bit of money and skip the time it takes to figure out the mount yourself; it does not mean the manufacturer will actively help you produce new products, or work with you in any way. They're just handing over the code. Conversely, the deal Sigma had with Canon, and the deal Tamron currently has with Sony, include the two companies actually talking and working together to some extent, such as deciding on focal length & aperture combinations.



Sep 19, 2023 at 12:18 PM
exdeejjjaaaa
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


rscheffler wrote:
Do we know it's just the Z mount version with an RF mount? Cosina


published optical schemas for Z and RF = 1:1




Sep 19, 2023 at 12:58 PM
exdeejjjaaaa
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 announced for Canon RF mount


rscheffler wrote:
As for the magenta fringing problem with this lens and some R bodies - that's a different problem from tweaking for the sensor stack and is dependent on the sensor's design. The stated cameras that will exhibit this fringing are all FSI sensor tech


R5, R6II are FSI too :-) ... so keep inventing

PS: R3 is the only BSI sensor that Canon managed to make for RF cameras...






Sep 19, 2023 at 12:59 PM
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