Jesse Evans wrote:
It's pretty profitable cannibalism if Fuji sells a new $2500 camera to replace a users already purchased 3-5 year old cameras 😄
Heh. Yes and no.
Fujifilm does likely make more on a $2500 sale than on a $1700 camera. (Though I'll bet that a competing XT5 — which I'll write about as if it is real, even though we don't know that — would be more like $1800-$1900 when released.)
So whatever part of the difference in price would be profit is a potential plus for the company.
On the other hand, I was replying to someone planning to consolidate two cameras (XT and XH) into a single camera. If that is what people were to do going forward, it is close to neutral or even a potential net loss.
The bigger issue is that the "cannibalization market" for Fujifilm is only as big as a fraction of percentage of the market that goes to Fujifilm.
The other complexity for Fujifilm is what to put in a XT5 that comes out after the XH2 series. Fujifilm has always put the same sensors in all of their cameras (with almost no exceptions), and the XT4 mostly matched or exceeded the XH1 functionally. What happens to the XH2-series when the XT5 comes out? If the XT5 matches or exceeds its features again, the window for "cannibalization profit" starts to narrow radically. If the XT5 ends up with a lesser sensor or other diminished features, there are going to be a bunch of unhappy Fujifilm customers. (Sort of like with the XPro3, which seemed like a downgrade to quite a few XPro2 users.)
My impression — which may turn out to be wrong — is that Fujifilm is going to have some tricky waters to navigate going forward.
Fujifilm does likely make more on a $2500 sale than on a $1700 camera. (Though I'll bet that a competing XT5 — which I'll write about as if it is real, even though we don't know that — would be more like $1800-$1900 when released.)
So whatever part of the difference in price would be profit is a potential plus for the company.
On the other hand, I was replying to someone planning to consolidate two cameras (XT and XH) into a single camera. If that is what people were to do going forward, it is close to neutral or even a potential net loss.
The bigger issue is that the "cannibalization market" for Fujifilm is only as big as a fraction of percentage of the market that goes to Fujifilm.
The other complexity for Fujifilm is what to put in a XT5 that comes out after the XH2 series. Fujifilm has always put the same sensors in all of their cameras (with almost no exceptions), and the XT4 mostly matched or exceeded the XH1 functionally. What happens to the XH2-series when the XT5 comes out? If the XT5 matches or exceeds its features again, the window for "cannibalization profit" starts to narrow radically. If the XT5 ends up with a lesser sensor or other diminished features, there are going to be a bunch of unhappy Fujifilm customers. (Sort of like with the XPro3, which seemed like a downgrade to quite a few XPro2 users.)
My impression — which may turn out to be wrong — is that Fujifilm is going to have some tricky waters to navigate going forward.
I think regarding consolidation of the X-H1 and X-T3 in to the X-H2S that the user specifically mentioned: I don’t really understand how this makes any sense for the broader market. Both the X-T3 and X-H1 are very similar other than their grips, and the X-H1 having IBIS. There isn’t a huge benefit to one or the other. The only reason the X-H2S would make sense to replace both would be because the user has been waiting for an alternative, and they’ve found it in Fuji instead of looking to Sony or some other brand. My opinion anyway, I’m not really sure what is really being consolidated. It isn’t like the X-T3 was a significantly better stills camera than the X-H1.
Fujifilm does likely make more on a $2500 sale than on a $1700 camera. (Though I'll bet that a competing XT5 — which I'll write about as if it is real, even though we don't know that — would be more like $1800-$1900 when released.)
So whatever part of the difference in price would be profit is a potential plus for the company.
On the other hand, I was replying to someone planning to consolidate two cameras (XT and XH) into a single camera. If that is what people were to do going forward, it is close to neutral or even a potential net loss.
The bigger issue is that the "cannibalization market" for Fujifilm is only as big as a fraction of percentage of the market that goes to Fujifilm.
The other complexity for Fujifilm is what to put in a XT5 that comes out after the XH2 series. Fujifilm has always put the same sensors in all of their cameras (with almost no exceptions), and the XT4 mostly matched or exceeded the XH1 functionally. What happens to the XH2-series when the XT5 comes out? If the XT5 matches or exceeds its features again, the window for "cannibalization profit" starts to narrow radically. If the XT5 ends up with a lesser sensor or other diminished features, there are going to be a bunch of unhappy Fujifilm customers. (Sort of like with the XPro3, which seemed like a downgrade to quite a few XPro2 users.)
My impression — which may turn out to be wrong — is that Fujifilm is going to have some tricky waters to navigate going forward.
I think too much is made of "market share", "mass market" and "consumer*" given that the ILC market is collapsing due to smartphones. I think that who can be profitable and carve out a niche is more likely to correlate with future success now. This is pure speculation of course.
rbf_ wrote:
I think too much is made of "market share", "mass market" and "consumer*" given that the ILC market is collapsing due to smartphones. I think that who can be profitable and carve out a niche is more likely to correlate with future success now. This is pure speculation of course.
Fujifilm, at least until recently, certainly has been, or so it seems, successful with the "niche" strategy. In my view, one of the chief reasons that they weren't run over and demolished by Canon, Nikon, Sony is that their gear beautifully fit a niche with a strong following.
As you probably know, their current decade-long stretch of success began with small APS-C cameras that generally provided a level and type of manual control that many miss on the gear from the Big Companies. They leveraged this by producing the most extensive set of high quality lenses tailored to the smaller sensor cameras. Nothing the big companies produced was like this. (The closest thing I can find is the Olympus MFT cameras.)
Part of the challenge now is that the XH2-series is, I think, an attempt to break out of this successful niche. The camera is no longer as small. It loses many of the manual controls that we associate with the Fujifilm DNA. It more directly targets a type of camera (and user) that is at the high end of the full frame camera market. The perceived negative of the smaller sensor (my use of the word "perceived" here is important) puts it at a bit of a disadvantage in comparison to those cameras, as does the less built-our lens availability. A compensating plus is that the cost is lower... but high-end camera buyers looking for this sort of camera tend to be less cost sensitive, and many/most of them have already built in expectations based on the Sony, Nikon, Canon models.
All of this is by saying that, in contrast to the earlier Fujifilm bodies, this new system is _less_ of a niche system. Ask yourself, who is the market for this camera, and who is likely to buy it? I don't think very many people are going to move from the Big Three for this camera, regardless of its excellent quality. And among Fujifilm owners, the slice who will get it seems to be to be pretty small — a fraction of current XT4 buyers for example.
It is possible for a camera company to be successful with a high end, pricey body that sells at much lower rates than their mainline products. Canon, Nikon, and Sony do it. But here, Fujifilm starts with a much smaller overall share of the camera market, and unless they can win over folks using the Big Three gear (not too likely, I'm afraid, with this camera) their "small fraction" is a portion of an even smaller starting market.
gdanmitchell wrote:
Fujifilm, at least until recently, certainly has been, or so it seems, successful with the "niche" strategy. In my view, one of the chief reasons that they weren't run over and demolished by Canon, Nikon, Sony is that their gear beautifully fit a niche with a strong following.
As you probably know, their current decade-long stretch of success began with small APS-C cameras that generally provided a level and type of manual control that many miss on the gear from the Big Companies. They leveraged this by producing the most extensive set of high quality lenses tailored to the smaller sensor cameras. Nothing the big companies produced was like this. (The closest thing I can find is the Olympus MFT cameras.)
Part of the challenge now is that the XH2-series is, I think, an attempt to break out of this successful niche. The camera is no longer as small. It loses many of the manual controls that we associate with the Fujifilm DNA. It more directly targets a type of camera (and user) that is at the high end of the full frame camera market. The perceived negative of the smaller sensor (my use of the word "perceived" here is important) puts it at a bit of a disadvantage in comparison to those cameras, as does the less built-our lens availability. A compensating plus is that the cost is lower... but high-end camera buyers looking for this sort of camera tend to be less cost sensitive, and many/most of them have already built in expectations based on the Sony, Nikon, Canon models.
All of this is by saying that, in contrast to the earlier Fujifilm bodies, this new system is _less_ of a niche system. Ask yourself, who is the market for this camera, and who is likely to buy it? I don't think very many people are going to move from the Big Three for this camera, regardless of its excellent quality. And among Fujifilm owners, the slice who will get it seems to be to be pretty small — a fraction of current XT4 buyers for example.
It is possible for a camera company to be successful with a high end, pricey body that sells at much lower rates than their mainline products. Canon, Nikon, and Sony do it. But here, Fujifilm starts with a much smaller overall share of the camera market, and unless they can win over folks using the Big Three gear (not too likely, I'm afraid, with this camera) their "small fraction" is a portion of an even smaller starting market.
Jesse Evans wrote:
I think regarding consolidation of the X-H1 and X-T3 in to the X-H2S that the user specifically mentioned: I don’t really understand how this makes any sense for the broader market. Both the X-T3 and X-H1 are very similar other than their grips, and the X-H1 having IBIS. There isn’t a huge benefit to one or the other. The only reason the X-H2S would make sense to replace both would be because the user has been waiting for an alternative, and they’ve found it in Fuji instead of looking to Sony or some other brand. My opinion anyway, I’m not really sure what is really being consolidated. It isn’t like the X-T3 was a significantly better stills camera than the X-H1. ...Show more →
If you are looking for me to make sense in some technical way, you're going to be disappointed! ;-)
It's simple: I am considering - considering - consolidating to one interchangeable lens camera, since I have an 100V. I have always carried two cameras - redundancy and all, so my first foray into Fuji was the XT-3 and then I decided I liked the system, and bought the XH-1for the IBIS.
I was coming from Canon, and wanting to try a lighter system. I tried the early Canon R, and didn't like it. So I rented a Fuji and I really enjoyed using it. I come from the old days of film, so I'm one who loves the dials. (Though likely not a deal breaker for me) I'm not new to all of this, but I ain't techy, either. I'm just keeping my eyes on what Fuji is up to, deciding whether to keep one of the aforementioned cameras or sell them and get the new one. I really appreciate IBIS now that I've experienced it. That is really all there is to my ponderings. Oh, and the flip out screen is just not what I really want, so that may be my deciding factor. :-)
gdanmitchell wrote:
It is possible for a camera company to be successful with a high end, pricey body that sells at much lower rates than their mainline products. Canon, Nikon, and Sony do it.
Dan
Fuji has been doing it for the last 4-5 years with their medium format line.
bobby350z wrote:
Fuji has been doing it for the last 4-5 years with their medium format line.
They are not competing with Canon, Nikon, and Sony in that market.
In fact, Fujifilm is, I am pretty sure, the biggest player in the miniMF market. They pulled that off by doing things that were different (seeing a theme here?) from most of that market: integrated sensor rather than a back, way less costly with at least equal performance, leveraged design ideas from mirrorless/DSLR cameras rather than emulating traditional MF designs, etc.
gdanmitchell wrote:
They are not competing with Canon, Nikon, and Sony in that market.
Hm I seriously considered a Fuji GFX instead of the Nikon Z7 I ended up buying, so disagree on that end.
The Nikon also competes with my Hasselblad for space in my bag for landscape shooting and so would a 40mp Fuji X-H2. I think you’re thinking too rigidly when it comes to sensor sizes and what competes with what (or doesn’t).
Agree with what was said before: cameras in the same price bracket will be compared by consumers, regardless of sensor size and intended use case / main focus. There will be quite a bit of cross-consideration between the higher end FF bodies and a GFX, whether it makes sense or not.
I guess for the X-H2S the competition is anything from a Panasonic GH6 to the Sony A7IV
The dual track approach by FUJI APS-C system somewhat risky putting aside X Pro 3 camera at 2.000 euros. By judging comments here people concerned about FUJI X-T5 arriving out of the blue to replace X-T4. FUJI may be testing the water to check if more refined video-orientated X-H2S attracts much attention. FUJI X-H2 with 40mg sensor will be the one to watch as it will compete with much cheaper X-T4. X-T4 stays much longer? Price difference as the deciding factor and new sensor type.
For me to dump FUJI X-T2 / X-T3 in favour of FUJI X-H2 may be unavoidable; sad to say as X-T2 a real beauty.
Sauseschritt wrote:
For some reason there isnt a thread about the new X-H2(s), so I guess I have to start one.
I have to say this is the most disappointing Fujifilm camera in a very long while. I actually have some real complaints about it. Which I dont have about the X100v, X-Pro3, or X-T4.
The X-H2s is for some reason considered the video camera. Well, it has the 26 Megapixel stacked sensor and "only" 6K video. But I would think the X-H2 with the 40 Megapixel non-stacked sensor and 8K video is closer to what a video enthusiast would probably want. Either way these are the two options. Personally I'd definitely get the X-H2s.
So far I only watched the DPReviewTV review of it on YouTube. Based on that:
- I'm not excited about the fact they have mixed memory card slots. That means you have to buy two different kinds of memory cards in order to get backup against card failure. And if you do that, the slower card limits the speed of the whole system anyway, so whats the point of the faster card slot again ? So this really isnt a great solution. All in all already a good reason not to get the X-H2(s) as long as you can get the X-T4 that doesnt have this, but has most of the X-H2 features.
- The electronic shutter only flashsync of 1/150 sec is pretty slow for the stacked sensor, but I dont think thats really something thats under control of Fujifilm. Thats on Sony, who dont want to offer their best features to the competition. Sony really should be broken up and the sensor part isolated from the rest of the company, so such shenannigans are no longer possible. Still, another reason to be somewhat underwhelmed by the X-H2s.
- The flipscreen was IMHO fine for the X-T4. For a camera more dedicated to video I would have expected a regular tiltscreen instead. This flipscreen collides with the video connectors at the side. Not ideal but not really a problem for a general camera like the X-T4, but for the X-H line I dont think thats great. The solution would IMHO be a battery grip that would have the video connectors. Maybe even a permanently attached one ?
- The advantage here is of course you can now mount a small fan to the camera to guarantee low operating temperatures. Not that the camera really seem to need it, in most scenarios. And the fragile flip screen sticks out and is very vulnerable against damage. Frankly I think I would rather get a separate fan instead.
- There was also a surprising number of problems with the camera, like the flickering top display. I hope they fix that at release or at least soon after.
1. Not many video shooters are shooting 8k these days. Never had a client ask for it and the file sizes are just too big for my tastes. 6k is helpful though for doing some reframing, even that to me is overkill but I know it's helpful for man. But you need the stacked sensor to reduce rolling shutter.
2. Mixed card slots may be annoying to some, but it's very common, see A7iv and GH6. You need a CF express card to keep up with some of the higher video codecs and for very fast burst shooting, but I like having the option of just buying SD cards if I'm not doing a lot of shooting that requires that kind of processing.
3. Agreed that the sync speed could be higher.
4. The positioning of some of the ports against the flip screen is annoying, but I've never met a videographer who would prefer a tiltscreen. Every A7iii shooter I know was very happy with a flipscreen on the A7iv. I use the flipscreen all the time, and I'm not even talking about vlogging. Tiltscreen for me as a video shooter is a no-go, but the GH6/S1H screen design would be perfect for me.
The biggest gripe, in my opinion, as a video shooter is the AF hunting/pulsing and the exposure stepping when zooming. Those are much more serious issues.
Regarding the target market, it's me. I'll buy two of these, which I hope justifies Fujifilm's production run
I shoot only stills. I got into Fuji in 2013 and dumped the Canon 1-series bodies a few years later. The smaller size and lower weight compensated for the awful autofocus performance on moving subjects, and I was no longer shooting sports professionally. But, I still have the occasional assignment that requires shooting things that move, so I got an A9 and the excellent 200-600 lens. Problem solved, but I don't much like the Sony files and hate needing two completely separate processing workflows.
My hope is that the X-H2s is at least as good as the A9, which is three generations old now, so I think my expectations are pretty low at this point. If that's the case, I'll get a couple of them to replace my X-H1 bodies, sell the A9 and the Sony lens, and have all Fuji files to deal with. Then I'll get an X-H2 and see if the 40mp files can compete at all with my GFX system (probably not.)
Right now I shoot with three X-H1 bodies and two X Pro 2's, plus that Sony. I don't care about the "crop" sensor, I don't care about the new PASM interface, I don't care about the larger size of the -H series. I am heavily invested in the Fujifilm lenses and want a camera that can be competitive with the high level photo-J cameras from the other manufacturers.
novalaker wrote:
Not many video shooters are shooting 8k these days.
There are, but the majority of them are using RED cameras.
After reading and watching all kinds of reviews of the X-H2S, I'm left with the impression that the video-centric reviewers consider it a stills camera with video as an afterthought, while the stills-oriented people think it's a video camera with still photography as an afterthought...
molson wrote:
There are, but the majority of them are using RED cameras.
After reading and watching all kinds of reviews of the X-H2S, I'm left with the impression that the video-centric reviewers consider it a stills camera with video as an afterthought, while the stills-oriented people think it's a video camera with still photography as an afterthought...
In a more logical word both people would just look at it as a well-rounded hybrid camera at an attractive price point. To me it's a GH6 with better stills, AF, DR, and low-light performance but lacking some pro video features. If I had already been invested in Fuji I'd have bought it in a heartbeat.
Well I noticed over at FR that the XH2S is back available for preorder at Amazon for first time since the day of introduction. It has shot up to #5 in best selling mirrorless category even a week after intro. That usually indicates a very strong demand for preorders. Seems like people like it!
rbf_ wrote:
It has shot up to #5 in best selling mirrorless category even a week after intro. That usually indicates a very strong demand for preorders. Seems like people like it!
But not as much as they like the Hello Baby Monitor, at #1 in mirrorless cameras...
molson wrote:
There are, but the majority of them are using RED cameras.
After reading and watching all kinds of reviews of the X-H2S, I'm left with the impression that the video-centric reviewers consider it a stills camera with video as an afterthought, while the stills-oriented people think it's a video camera with still photography as an afterthought...
The penalty of aiming to be the proverbial 'jack of all trades' perhaps, potential buyer confusion.
Lets hope its 'master' of one of them for Fujis sake.
I think its simply the classic example of Fujifilm consistently getting poor reviews from everybody, simply because these reviewers live from the revenue they get from these reviews and Fujifilm doesnt give the same revenue that you get from companies like Sony or Sigma.
Meaning if a shop sells a Fujifilm they make less profit than if you buy a Sony at the same price point, and thus the reviewer also gets less money if you buy a Fujifilm product from one of their links.
Ken Rockwell and Thom Hogan sometimes openly talk about how their links give them revenue. Ken Rockwell even specifically asks for people to buy stuff through his links. Not of interest for me as a european personally because buying stuff in the USA makes no sense for me whatsoever and would result in a lot of unnecessary headaches easily avoided by buying the same thing in Europe.
Bottom line, I only trust very few sources on giving fairly accurate Fujifilm information, including DPReviewTV.
The X-H2(s) is a fine camera, and my complaints are really just nitpicks.
Quite frankly the next item on my want to have list is at least one D850 and that has two different card slots as well. I still am very interested in Nikon DSLRs because I have a couple Nikkor AF glas, all of which I love in regarding to their output but certainly also their build quality, and there is still no possibility to use them with autofocus support on any mirrorless.
