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Official Nikon 400/2.8S image thread + some discussions

  
 
AccessDenied
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p.7 #1 · Official Nikon 400/2.8S image thread + some discussions


suteetat wrote:
...
A few other random shots, all with TCx2
...



Curious, when you use the TCx2, are you also leveraging the internal 1.4?
What would that give you?

400 F2.8 x 1.4 = 560 F4
560 F4 x 2 = 1120 F8?

Or, do you find that the stacking on the TCx2 with the internal 1.4 degrades image quality too much?

I have the 400 S on order, but I'm usually looking for more reach from my 500PF. I worry that if I'll be stacking TCs almost 100% of the time, I might be better off just waiting til the 600 S (whenever that may be), or considering a 600 E until then...

Your images all look great on the web so far.

Thanks for the help!



Mar 11, 2022 at 12:09 PM
bernardl
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p.7 #2 · Official Nikon 400/2.8S image thread + some discussions



suteetat wrote

This is the second time I shoot kite surfing. The first time was several years ago when a friend of mine hosted an international circuit competition which was a lot of fun. Camera was on tripod on the beach, standing height almost at water line. Looking at these pictures, I wonder if the pictures might be better if I lower the tripod down say to a foot above the ground?
What do you think? It would look a bit more dramatic I think but I would need to use flipped LCD screen instead of EVF.
In yesterday condition, flip screen would be
...Show more

A focusing cloth such as those use for LF may be the best solution. It can get a little hot though.

For kite surfing I only shot some once in New Caledonia and got my best images with a much shorter lens (85mm f1.8 S) when they were coming above shore flying.

And yes, the brightness of the Z9 viewfinder is to me one of its most pleasing specs. I shoot in the snow often and all the other mirrorless bodies i tried are annoying from that standpoint because of the huge difference in brightness btwn the scene and the finder.

Cheers,
Bernard



Mar 11, 2022 at 04:01 PM
suteetat
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p.7 #3 · Official Nikon 400/2.8S image thread + some discussions


AccessDenied wrote:
Curious, when you use the TCx2, are you also leveraging the internal 1.4?
What would that give you?

400 F2.8 x 1.4 = 560 F4
560 F4 x 2 = 1120 F8?

Or, do you find that the stacking on the TCx2 with the internal 1.4 degrades image quality too much?

I have the 400 S on order, but I'm usually looking for more reach from my 500PF. I worry that if I'll be stacking TCs almost 100% of the time, I might be better off just waiting til the 600 S (whenever that may be), or considering a 600 E until then...

Your images all
...Show more


For all the examples that I posted so far, if I use both internal and external TC together, I would mentioned that I used both TC and focal length would be either 1120mm or 768 mm (according to exif data).
Personally, I find using TCx2 (800mm) gives better result than internal TC + external TC1.4 by a small margin.
At 1120mm, the closer you are the better the result and I would not hesitate to use this combination for small birds 10-15m away. However, IQ will deteriorate quickly. The IQ at 50-100m distance is usable but not great great but the good news is that I think it is better than 600/4e FL + TC20e iii which personally I feel never worked all that well.
At the moment I feel that upto 800mm, there is no issue at all and 1120mm is very good under the right circumstance ie for smaller subject not too far away rather than for longer reach far away. With 500PF and D6 i the past, I am stuck with TC143 iii as D6 would not AF with 500PF+TC20e iii. I also avoid using 600/4e FL with TC20e iii as well as I don't like the IQ that I get much. So in a way, With 400/2.8s and TCx2, I am not losing any reach in comparison to using either 500PF or 600/4e FL at all. Now, seeing how TCx2 IQ is much nicer than TC20e iii, one certainly could argue that 600/4S would make a lot of sense if you need 1200mm as I am sure IQ with 600/4S TCx2 will be much better than 400/2.8s with 2 TC. However, for example, when I was in Kenya, if I need longer focal length than 500mm, unless I shoot early in the morning or late afternoon, heat distortion would kill majority of mammal shots that I used 500/4e FL + TC14e iii and the combination was really useful for smaller birds perching on a branch type situation or a hyena not too far away. So 1200mm is great in theory but in practice, there is a lot of limitation as well, I think.

---------------------------------------------

bernardl wrote:
A focusing cloth such as those use for LF may be the best solution. It can get a little hot though.

For kite surfing I only shot some once in New Caledonia and got my best images with a much shorter lens (85mm f1.8 S) when they were coming above shore flying.

And yes, the brightness of the Z9 viewfinder is to me one of its most pleasing specs. I shoot in the snow often and all the other mirrorless bodies i tried are annoying from that standpoint because of the huge difference in brightness btwn the scene and the finder.

Cheers,
Bernard


I was thinking for focus cloth as well but I need to be able to see around me as on a good day there will be many many kite surfers in the water doing different thing. If I shoot free style competition, usually they will have at least 2 competitors in the water at the same time kind of up-one manship each other.

Nowaday with foil board becoming more and more popular, less people are coming all the way to the waterline as
they need to be in deeper water. I will go back to the beach next month for a bit more kite surf action, hopefully the
weather will cooperate better. Worse come to worse, if I want to try lower position, I guess I could be down on my belly
and use EVF shooting up I suppose but my neck hurts just thinking about it



Edited on Mar 11, 2022 at 05:21 PM · View previous versions



Mar 11, 2022 at 05:04 PM
bernardl
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p.7 #4 · Official Nikon 400/2.8S image thread + some discussions


One option would be to add a window in the cloth made of darkish flexible plastic to let you scan the scene with reduced brightness.

Good point on the foil boards yes.



Mar 11, 2022 at 05:21 PM
AccessDenied
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p.7 #5 · Official Nikon 400/2.8S image thread + some discussions


Suteetat - appreciate the thorough breakdown!

I know I won't be able to afford both 600S and 400S, so trying to decide the two is going to be difficult. I guess the 'good' thing is, it'll likely be months before the 400S is even delivered, and maybe a year + before the 600S becomes a reality (like in customer hands reality)...

I love the idea of having F2.8, so the 400 is appealing. But, I wonder how much I would have it just set up with the internal TC on. If I'm shooting 90+% of the time with the TC set, so 560/4, wouldn't it make sense to just go with the 600/4 natively?

If the 600S comes with an internal TC, like the 400S, that might make the decision for me. Having 600/4 and 840/5.6 at the ready would be a pretty killer combo for me!

What a wonderful time to be a hobbyist photographer! So many exciting things happening, across all brands in this industry!!



Mar 11, 2022 at 10:55 PM
suteetat
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p.7 #6 · Official Nikon 400/2.8S image thread + some discussions


AccessDenied wrote:
Suteetat - appreciate the thorough breakdown!

I know I won't be able to afford both 600S and 400S, so trying to decide the two is going to be difficult. I guess the 'good' thing is, it'll likely be months before the 400S is even delivered, and maybe a year + before the 600S becomes a reality (like in customer hands reality)...

I love the idea of having F2.8, so the 400 is appealing. But, I wonder how much I would have it just set up with the internal TC on. If I'm shooting 90+% of the time with the TC set, so
...Show more

No argument from me with your logic. If 400/2.8S comes out at the same time wiht 600/4S, I would buy 600/4S.
But since that is not the case and I know that I can get 400/2.8S well ahead of 600/4S, I decided not to wait. As much
as I like 600/4e FL in term of focal length and IQ, it is too big and a bit too heavy for me to handhold for any reasonable amount of time. So when I have a chance to get 400/2.8S now, I decided to go with it. At the moment I certainly use
it with TC much more often than without TC. However, if everything go as planned, I will be in Botswana this June so this
is one place where 400/2.8 will be very handy. Couple it with internal TC, it will be an excellent option and the smaller lighter weight will make it much easier to travel with. I do plan to travel to Africa may be every one to two years and I also plan a few other wildlife trip abroad here and there so size and weight matters.

I certainly am entertaining the idea of getting another supertele to go wtih 400/2.8S in the future. 800/6.3PF looks like a good option especially if it is significantly cheaper and lighter than 600/4S but we will have to wait and see. In general I am very please with 400/2.8S with TCs that additional supertele is not a need, really just a want for most part



Mar 12, 2022 at 01:16 AM
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p.7 #7 · Official Nikon 400/2.8S image thread + some discussions


suteetat wrote:
No argument from me with your logic. If 400/2.8S comes out at the same time wiht 600/4S, I would buy 600/4S.
But since that is not the case and I know that I can get 400/2.8S well ahead of 600/4S, I decided not to wait. As much
as I like 600/4e FL in term of focal length and IQ, it is too big and a bit too heavy for me to handhold for any reasonable amount of time. So when I have a chance to get 400/2.8S now, I decided to go with it. At the moment I certainly use
it
...Show more

Your insight is incredibly valuable, as I believe you're the only person on this forum (who is sharing at least) with the lens in hand and in use!

My local shop still can't get Z9 orders fulfilled, from day one preorders!
I am imagining it will be late summer before any talk of 400S availability. Until then, 500PF will have to perform haha. Maybe we'll hear something about 600S too by August, who knows.

Thanks again!



Mar 12, 2022 at 09:51 AM
suteetat
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p.7 #8 · Official Nikon 400/2.8S image thread + some discussions


AccessDenied wrote:
Your insight is incredibly valuable, as I believe you're the only person on this forum (who is sharing at least) with the lens in hand and in use!

My local shop still can't get Z9 orders fulfilled, from day one preorders!
I am imagining it will be late summer before any talk of 400S availability. Until then, 500PF will have to perform haha. Maybe we'll hear something about 600S too by August, who knows.

Thanks again!


I am sure there will be plenty of better images from 400/2.8S soon. There are so many good photographers here on this site and hopefully more 400/2.8S will get into more hands in the next few months.




Mar 12, 2022 at 06:26 PM
suteetat
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p.7 #9 · Official Nikon 400/2.8S image thread + some discussions


Here are a few more from kite surf sessions. All shot with TCx2, 1/2500s, F5.6, auto iso, mostly around 200-500 range.
I wonder if I should bump up SS a bit more. Some jump shots did look a little soft and I am not sure if it is AF or just a bit of motion blurred compounded by 800mm focal lenght.































































Mar 12, 2022 at 06:32 PM
suteetat
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p.7 #10 · Official Nikon 400/2.8S image thread + some discussions


I took a few shots with TCx2 and internal TC1.4 at 1120mm, F8, 1/3200, iso 500 for the first 2 shots and
1/2000, iso 450 for the last spectacular splash shot

I think doubled TC lost a bit too much detail for birds at long distance but not too bad for human, I supposed. I added about 50% sharpening in post process. All pictures were cropped to about 24-28MP before resizing.





















Mar 12, 2022 at 09:33 PM
 


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NaturRosi
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p.7 #11 · Official Nikon 400/2.8S image thread + some discussions


Thanks for all the pictures and information. I got the hint of several people how were able to test this lens and they said that it became soft at longer distances. Like in the test mentioned posted here earlier. Can you perhaps post some 100% corps of some motives in around 100-150 m with and without the converter? Thanks a lot!
I’m still waiting for my Z 400 but now get a little bit scared.



Mar 13, 2022 at 01:54 AM
suteetat
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p.7 #12 · Official Nikon 400/2.8S image thread + some discussions


Here are some 100% cropped with 2 TC at 1120mm along with the full picture so you will have some idea of the distance. All 1120mm, F8






1/3200s, iso 900, I needed to lift shadow +80 on ACR, no other adjustment






100%






1/500s, iso 1250, again I needed to lift shadow and reduced hilight quite a bit otherwise no other adjustment in ACR.






This one I ran the whole picture through Topaz noise reduction using auto mode first before making the cropped picture.







At much longer distance






1/2000, iso 450






100% cropped







1/3200s iso 560






100%

At long distance the image is definitely much softer. However in my experience, I still think it is somewhat better than 600/4e FL with TC20e iii. Also at this distance, while it is above water, it was about 35C the day I was shooting. I wonder how much atmospheric interference there was. I was shooting between 2-4pm as that was when the wind was the strongest.

At close distance, my feeling is that it really depends on the light.
Comparing to 800mm with TCx2 only, if you have to push iso very high, I think 100% cropped for 800mm will win out anytime but in a good light where ISO is low, there might still be benefit for double TC. However, I will need to experiment a bit more.







Mar 13, 2022 at 05:29 AM
bernardl
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p.7 #13 · Official Nikon 400/2.8S image thread + some discussions


Would you have long distance images shot with the lens without TC or with built-in TC only?

Thank you.

Regards,
Bernard



Mar 13, 2022 at 06:37 AM
suteetat
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p.7 #14 · Official Nikon 400/2.8S image thread + some discussions


Here is a quick test shot with no TC and with internal TC. Unfortunately, I don't have a tripod head that is really suitable for weight of the setup and at night, with TCx2 or TCx2+internal TC, SS is 20-30s and I am not sure if the tripod is stable enough for this and long exposure noise may have some effect. May be tomorrow during the day I can try again.

Anyway, so this is the whole picture without TC, all shot wide opened. The building is over a kilometer away easily. Probably more like 2-2.5km away.






400/2.8s, 2.5s, iso 64.

560/4, 3s, iso 64


The three cropped picture, top without TC.

Middle is with internal TC but I reduced to whole picture .716x so pixel density is the same as 400/2.8S without TC

The bottom is 100% crop from the full picture with internal TC.










Mar 13, 2022 at 07:39 AM
suteetat
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p.7 #15 · Official Nikon 400/2.8S image thread + some discussions


Here we are. There is quite a bit of air pollution today so I decided to use a target around 400-500m away instead.







The top 4 pictures, 400mm, 560mm, 800mm, 1120mm.

The bottom picture is 1120mm resized to match 800mm pixel density first then cropped.

I think 1120mm is falling behind quite a bit and at long distance, I think it is better to just crop 800mm. What surprise me though is how well TCx2 is holding up against internal tC1.4 .

This is the whole picture at 400mm.







All shot wide opened on tripod, VR off, cable release. All shot at iso 64, I increased shutter speed manually from 1/25-1/50-1/100 and 1/200 to keep exposure consistant.



Mar 13, 2022 at 07:38 PM
AcuteShadows
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p.7 #16 · Official Nikon 400/2.8S image thread + some discussions


suteetat wrote:
Here are a few more from kite surf sessions. All shot with TCx2, 1/2500s, F5.6, auto iso, mostly around 200-500 range.
I wonder if I should bump up SS a bit more. Some jump shots did look a little soft and I am not sure if it is AF or just a bit of motion blurred compounded by 800mm focal lenght.

https://morboi.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/NZ9_2040.jpg

https://morboi.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/NZ9_2372.jpg

https://morboi.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/NZ9_2379.jpg

https://morboi.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/NZ9_2257.jpg

https://morboi.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/NZ9_2426.jpg

https://morboi.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/NZ9_2393.jpg

https://morboi.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/NZ9_2034.jpg

https://morboi.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/NZ9_1930.jpg

https://morboi.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/NZ9_1813.jpg

https://morboi.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/NZ9_2332.jpg


Great pictures!

As for motion blur, look for things that move faster than others. If these are frozen, then you don't have motion blur. If they are not, are they moving much faster than other elements - e.g. water droplets? If so, and if it's acceptable that these elements show blur, look for things that move faster than those that show some softness but not definite motion blur, and repeat the examination.

If you don't detect motion blur there, you probably don't have motion blur in the slower things in the image. But there might still be camera, shutter shake, VR or IBIS issues - I think this is best checked by comparing a hand-held photo of a static subject to a tripod-based photo of the same subject, at different shutter speeds.



Mar 13, 2022 at 07:58 PM
AcuteShadows
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p.7 #17 · Official Nikon 400/2.8S image thread + some discussions


suteetat wrote:
Here we are. There is quite a bit of air pollution today so I decided to use a target around 400-500m away instead.

https://morboi.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/test1-2.jpg

The top 4 pictures, 400mm, 560mm, 800mm, 1120mm.

The bottom picture is 1120mm resized to match 800mm pixel density first then cropped.

I think 1120mm is falling behind quite a bit and at long distance, I think it is better to just crop 800mm. What surprise me though is how well TCx2 is holding up against internal tC1.4 .

This is the whole picture at 400mm.

https://morboi.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/test1.jpg

All shot wide opened on tripod, VR off, cable release. All shot at iso 64, I
...Show more

This is really informative!

For some time, my thinking was that with today's pixel pitch, often cropping is more efficient than using a teleconverter (unless you are intentionally using a lower pixel pitch camera for better dynamic range). But with the Z series teleconverters, that has to be checked again.

In my view, a difficult issue is that you have a gradual fall-off of contrast as you increase spatial frequency. While oversharpening may distort details, fine-tuned sharpening (i.e. adjusted to the MTF of the lens), targeting different spatial frequencies with different intensity, can improve the actual image not only visually, but objectively, i.e. compared to the information contained in the object.

Thus, the most important question with regard to sharpness comparison would be: Are you getting more information from the object *in relation* to potential artefacts that may make further improvement by sharpening difficult or impossible?



Mar 13, 2022 at 08:17 PM
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p.7 #18 · Official Nikon 400/2.8S image thread + some discussions


Appreciate doing all the samples from requests.
I think if and when I get this lens, I’ll be putting on the 1.4x TC So that I can go 560mm F4 Or 784mm f5.6 with a flip of a switch. And compare with 2xTC at 800mm.
I never had good luck with stacking TC but hopefully the internal TC design can handle an external 1.4x. That would offer me the most versatility. Would be interesting to see the bare lens with external 1.4x vs internal 1.4x.



Mar 13, 2022 at 10:11 PM
bernardl
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p.7 #19 · Official Nikon 400/2.8S image thread + some discussions


Thank you very much for the test results.

It shows clearly that the lens is extremely sharp at long distances also.

Cheers,
Bernard



Mar 13, 2022 at 11:55 PM
NaturRosi
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p.7 #20 · Official Nikon 400/2.8S image thread + some discussions


Thank you so much! That looks really good!

Regards
Stefan



Mar 14, 2022 at 01:05 AM
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