I do like the angle of the A7IV being a benchmark of the industry again and it setting the trend for the next 3-year cycle to come, but that's also just confirmation bias on my end and lots of wishful thinking!
nandadevieast wrote:
This stacked sensor thing will trickle down fast because of competition. When Canon and Nikon have it in their flagship models, Sony can spoil their party by selling it in mass market models.
At that point, i will buy an a9II 😎 at low prices
If we first quick take some sales numbers.
Mirrorless 2019 and 2020 crop and FF combined per brand:
2019
Sony: about 1.65 million
Canon: about 900 000
Nikon: about 250 000
Panasonic: about 250 000
2020
Sony: about 1.2 million
Canon: about 1.1 million
Nikon and Panasonic about the same as 2019
Leica and Sigma are so small they don't have their own lines in the freely available sales information.
The above numbers are picked from my memory and can be a little different in the real world but not by much so this paints the world view quite well. Though we don't know how the FF/crop division is unfortunatly.
Canon makes their own sensors and have just learned to make BSI and stacked ones (R3).
Canon has so far not sold their sensors to anyone else in the mirrorless world.
Leica/Panasonic have used former TowerJazz (now Tower Semiconductor) for some of the sensors like the 47 Mpix one. How Tower operates the sensor side of their business I don't know.
My information says that the Sony A7III and A7C, the Nikon Z6, the Leica SL2S, the Sigma fp and the Panasonic S1, S1H and S5 are all using the same base Sony IMX410 sensor, just slightly altered for each manufacturer. Most are with PDAF but in the L-mount world only CDAF.
Leica uses another 24 Mpix sensor in the SL and Q, my information says from TowerJazz.
The Leica Q2, SL2 and Panasonic S1R has a 47 Mpix sensor also from TowerJazz.
The Sigma fp L uses the same Sony 61 Mpix sensor as the A7RIV.
At Sony sensor division one can either buy any of the off the shelf sensors they offer (see their website for models). Those can be slightly altered like if one wants CDAF pixels or not, microlens configurations, AA-filter or not etc.
One can also sit down with Sonys sensor engineers and cook together one owns sensor from technologies and intellectual properties that Sony has rights too. Basically one can make a sensor from what is in Sonys toolbox. The reason one gets Sony engineers to help out is because what fits well together and not from the stuff that is in the Toolbox is something that they know. Nikons Z7 sensor is believed to be made through this custom order procedure.
Sony does not allow a customer to bring their own tech or patents etc that Sony don't have in their toolbox and Sony also don't manufacture other companies sensor designs.
If one does a custom sensor at Sonys sensor division they can either use it exclusively or let others (later) use it as well and then get some sort of cost reduction/kick back for those sales.
Sonys camera division is a customer at the sensor division, just like Nikon and the others.
One can only get what is available for production in the toolbox for the sensor size one wants. Sensor tech trickles downward and up in size so FF is almost on the end of the line.
Sonys camera division can not get tech before the others. It is however believed that Sonys camera division has a better info flow on what is nearing production possible on FF and preliminary specs and by that can get a head start to create the interfacing camera circuitry and by that often be first out on the market with the new tech.
I haven't seen any fullframe mirrorless camera in the recent years that has a sensor from someone else than the three above mentioned companies.
Samsung could probably do very good FF sensors (that they can do good APS-C sensors for mirrorless we know already from their now dicommissioned system), but they don't seem to have an interest in that or if it is the other way around - the Japanese centered camera business don't want to buy from them.
I really must stress that the above info is pieced together from several sources of unknown quality but they seemed believable and errors therefor might have sneaked in. I do wish the camera/sensor business was more transparent with how it works so we wouldn't need to puzzle together crumbles like this. If you have any more info, corrections to the above etc, please fill in.
Over to a recent interesting development that might have an impact on the A7IV sensor (or not):
The interesting line to read in the spec is "Each pixel readout method deployment..."
Where option 2 says it is for "Phase difference".
Phase difference is for instance classical "hole in the sensor" PDAF but can also be other ways to achieve that.
Note that the first statement starts with: "Each pixel...". Again: Each pixel.
And here an interesting quote from that page:
"The “all-pixel AF” addresses this challenge by enabling all pixels on the sensor to perform both image sensing and phase difference detection. When all pixels are used as image sensing pixels, image signals need no compensation. The phase difference detection mode is designed to have no impact on image quality."
The rumor saying that the A7IV will have very good AF is in line with that tech.
But again, before anyone preorders a body in pure extacy, this is just all my semi intelligent guess work, a little dot connections of differing info sources. And I might as well be dead wrong.
lattesweden wrote:
Sonys camera division can not get tech before the others. It is however believed that Sonys camera division has a better info flow on what is nearing production possible on FF and preliminary specs and by that can get a head start to create the interfacing camera circuitry and by that often be first out on the market with the new tech.
The stacked sensor for the A9 was a custom work for the camera division and the whole process took 4 years from idea to market. The idea was to make 'a tour de force' halo product to show Sony's leading place in camera markets (and to make way for the other models). This is also a reason why we haven't seen the same sensor used by others. I have a pretty good source on this.
But you're right in that Sony (corp) has said that it's strategy is to grow the camera markets for all players and vitalize it with innovations, not just for the the Sony cameras but for other brands as well. In plain english this means that Sony will produce sensors for everyone who wants it to build their own versions of the mirrorless pro bodies - which is precisely what has happened in recent years when everyone has been copying the A7III (eye-af anyone?). Thanks to Sony's innovations the other brands also have new markets.
Sep 17, 2021 at 03:14 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
lattesweden wrote:
Regarding your comment of having zero chance of having a stacked sensor:
I am not really knowledgeable enough to say if the A7IV sensor has a chance to be stacked or not, but my thought process on the "It has a chance to be stacked" alternative goes like this:
* Most/many/all smartphone sensors are stacked these days.
* The latest RX100 versions use a stacked sensor.
* The recently announced m4/3 sensor from Sony is stacked (will most likely come in the GH6 and rumored early 2022 body from OM/Olympus).
On the cost side:
- Stacked sensors are more expensive to make.
+ Stacked sensors have components in the stacked layer that don't need to sit on other circuit boards.
+ A stacked sensor with enough high read out don't need a mech shutter in the body (that is an outside of Sony made component).
I have no idea how the real numbers for the above business case will look.
But, if the A7IV shall be on the market 3+ years as Sony has done with the A7II-A7III and now A7III-A7IV it needs to be a good seller and stand well until the shift 2024/25.
The new m4/3 stacked sensor seems to have on all pixels the possibility for HDR and also for "Phase difference". Sony seems to call that All-pixel-AF. And it then has no holes in the sensor so no image quality impact.
That technology would resonate well with the rumor that the A7IV will have very good AF so chances are that the A7IV sensor will have it too. But maybe one doesn't need to have the sensor stacked for that tech, I can't really say.
As for price, all new Sony models are more expensive at their launch than what the previous model was at its launch so I guess that the A7IV will cost what the A7III costed at launch plus 500 USD or so.
The A7III sensor Sony also use in the A7C and sold to others. It sits in Nikon Z6/Z6II, Panasonic S1, Leica SL2S and Sigma fp.
And Sony might count on the new A7IV sensor to also do that over time, making the volume higher.
If that is enough to sustain the business case for a 3+ year model on the market, I can't really say so the above is just guess work.
Here is the rub: if the A7 IV has a 33MP stacked sensor it will in effect leap frog the A9 II. That camera costs $4,500 right now at B & H, so you would be offering a better camera and almost half the price. That suggest that either the A9 II is way over inflated in price or the a7 IV at $2,500 won't be making nearly the profit per camera that Sony typically gets. I agree with Geoff (arbitrage) that basically isn't going to happen and I further agree with him that if it does I am going to get in line as fast as I can to buy one. It would be a phenomenal deal and a much better deal by a lot than anything else on the market. I do think the A7 series of cameras will eventually get a stacked sensor, but I don't think it will be at least until the next generation of cameras.
Kalainen wrote:
The stacked sensor for the A9 was a custom work for the camera division and the whole process took 4 years from idea to market. The idea was to make 'a tour de force' halo product to show Sony's leading place in camera markets (and to make way for the other models). This is also a reason why we haven't seen the same sensor used by others. I have a pretty good source on this.
But you're right in that Sony (corp) has said that it's strategy is to grow the camera markets for all players and vitalize it with innovations, not just for the the Sony cameras but for other brands as well. In plain english this means that Sony will produce sensors for everyone who wants it to build their own versions of the mirrorless pro bodies - which is precisely what has happened in recent years when everyone has been copying the A7III (eye-af anyone?). Thanks to Sony's innovations the other brands also have new markets.
From what I know, no one else has used the A9 sensor as you say, but the spec has been published on the Internet a few years ago and I got the impression that it was on offer, but that might have been faulty info.
Steve Spencer wrote:
Here is the rub: if the A7 IV has a 33MP stacked sensor it will in effect leap frog the A9 II. That camera costs $4,500 right now at B & H, so you would be offering a better camera and almost half the price. That suggest that either the A9 II is way over inflated in price or the a7 IV at $2,500 won't be making nearly the profit per camera that Sony typically gets. I agree with Geoff (arbitrage) that basically isn't going to happen and I further agree with him that if it does I am going to get in line as fast as I can to buy one. It would be a phenomenal deal and a much better deal by a lot than anything else on the market. I do think the A7 series of cameras will eventually get a stacked sensor, but I don't think it will be at least until the next generation of cameras.t ...Show more →
At some point in time the A9III will come and most likely be an even better camera. When that happens Sony can chose to lower the A9II in price, or dicommision it and stop making the A9/A9II sensor. The A9 already seems on the way out. The A9II isn't strong enough to stand vs the Canon R3 so a follow up model to the A9II might not be that far away (some rumors about an A9III have been out regarding that, see another recent thread at FM).
Also the A9 series have things like RJ45 connector that the pros like, the A7IV can also have lower fps, not as deep buffer etc and other budget things so there are many ways of handling that. Also Sony haven't been that afraid of cannibalization in the past.
arbitrage wrote:
It has almost zero chance of having a stacked sensor. Therefore it will never have 1/250 readout which is as fast as the A1. It will probably readout somewhere around the A7SIII. Remember even the A1 only reads at 1/60 in video mode.
It is going to get the updated body (probably the A7SIII flip screen as I'm sure it will be video centric), it will get the XR, it will get the new menus, it will gain the nice responsivness of operation like SIII and A1. It will get the dual SD/CFe-A slots. It will probably get the A7RIV EVF (but even the A9 EVF would be an upgrade). I doubt it will get the A7SIII EVF, but maybe. It will get the RIVa LCD as there must be some production issue with the old one. It will get the new video specs as rumored....Show more →
Yeah, I agree. As mentioned in another thread I was trying to figure out what honestly they could they do to make an A9iii. The A9ii is currently about 1500-2000 over priced in my opinion. It's 5+ year old tech (as good as it is). The stacked sensor is most likely going to be the line they draw in the sand between the A7 line and A9 line. Your right there is no way they put a stacked sensor in the A7iv unless they decide to blend the two lines from here out. The interesting part will be seeing how they make the A9iii still attractive but not so attractive that it take sales away from the flagship A1. I have held off buying the A1 for this exact reason. I don't need the video specs. I'm assuming the A9iii will continue to be handy capped in this area as well (which I don't mind). Hopefully we get some rumors on if there is even an A9iii and what we might expect.
a. Announced the a9III before the a7IV
b. Announe the a9III and a7IV simultaneously
And there is also the remote possibly that the a9III, a7IV, and the a7rV are announced at the same time. Now, I don't say they would be released at the same time. But when Sony did both the a7 and a7r at the same time, it was pretty amazing.
Steve Spencer wrote:
Here is the rub: if the A7 IV has a 33MP stacked sensor it will in effect leap frog the A9 II. That camera costs $4,500 right now at B & H, so you would be offering a better camera and almost half the price. That suggest that either the A9 II is way over inflated in price or the a7 IV at $2,500 won't be making nearly the profit per camera that Sony typically gets. I agree with Geoff (arbitrage) that basically isn't going to happen and I further agree with him that if it does I am going to get in line as fast as I can to buy one. It would be a phenomenal deal and a much better deal by a lot than anything else on the market. I do think the A7 series of cameras will eventually get a stacked sensor, but I don't think it will be at least until the next generation of cameras. ...Show more →
"The tentative date for the A7IV announcement is around October 21 (depending on time zone). I am saying “tentative” because as we saw with the ZV-E10 launch Sony can surprise us with a last minute delay
I also got some more camera specs and here is the updated list:
Sony A7IV rumored specs:
launch on October 21 (if chip supply permits this)
Newly developed 33MP sensor
15 stops of DR
3.69m dot EVF and LCD is improved too (1.44m dot)
4k30 video is oversampled from 7K
4k60p
5.5 stops of IBIS (+ AS)
Same A7sIII body design and same heatsink system.
Full size HDMi
Fully articulating LCD screen
UHS-II SD-cards and CF Xpress cards
Same new Sony menu system of the A7sIII
I am still not sure about this but price might be around $2,499"
If true it'll be popular with people making YouTube content. Higher bitrates and usable Slog3 will put a lot of people off buying the A7SIII.
EVF resolution makes sense if they are not replacing the RIV for a while yet.
4K30 from a full sensor readout and 4K60 cropped makes sense too. No 4K120 to keep SIII/FX3 users happy.
Full HDMI is good. I'm guessing it'll support some flavour or ProRes (perhaps not RAW) externally.
If it does 10-bit 4:2:2 internal it'll be huge for video, but I'm guessing 10-bit 4:2:0 internal and 4:2:2 external.
30MP for stills is solid. 42 would have been better, even if it was just the RIII sensor, but image quality hasn't been a problem with Sony for years. 30MP gives you a nice little bump and will be plenty for the majority of users.
Sony need to sort the rear LCDs out though. They're dreadful on all of Sonys bodies.
Not long to wait now. I expect it be announced and then out of stock for 9 months or more.
If these rumors are true I wish the EVF was a little higher resolution, but they're going with what matches the R6 it would seem. The EVF and LCD resolution pretty much match the R6. I would think 10-bit 4:2:2 internal should be a given as the R6 can do it. I'm hoping that Sony's new 33mp sensor is at least 1/60 readout speed to match the R6 which would make silent shutter really pretty usable for a lot of situations. So far it seems like Sony is going to put out a pretty good offering in the IV. Fixes most any complaints people had about the III. My guess for the a9III would be a similar 33mp sensor only stacked.
Steve Spencer wrote:
Here is the rub: if the A7 IV has a 33MP stacked sensor it will in effect leap frog the A9 II. That camera costs $4,500 right now at B & H, so you would be offering a better camera and almost half the price. That suggest that either the A9 II is way over inflated in price or the a7 IV at $2,500 won't be making nearly the profit per camera that Sony typically gets. I agree with Geoff (arbitrage) that basically isn't going to happen and I further agree with him that if it does I am going to get in line as fast as I can to buy one. It would be a phenomenal deal and a much better deal by a lot than anything else on the market. I do think the A7 series of cameras will eventually get a stacked sensor, but I don't think it will be at least until the next generation of cameras. ...Show more →
Surely there's more to a camera than just the sensor readout speed. If the A74 does have a stacked sensor, perhaps it will have the same readout speed as the A92 (ie. slower than the A1) but the A92 will maintain it's edge by having higher frame rates, better AF tracking, and better bells/whistles etc. Who knows?!
I do think stacked sensors will eventually become the norm, just as CMOS sensors eventually replaced CCDs. And I think we've perhaps peaked in terms of sensor DR and noise (although others are probably far more knowledgeable that me about sensor tech potential). But there is always going to be far more to differentiate cameras that just the sensor design, as Canon's eye-AF and jumps in computational photography highlight.
Oct 04, 2021 at 01:08 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
wordfool wrote:
Surely there's more to a camera than just the sensor readout speed. If the A74 does have a stacked sensor, perhaps it will have the same readout speed as the A92 (ie. slower than the A1) but the A92 will maintain it's edge by having higher frame rates, better AF tracking, and better bells/whistles etc. Who knows?!
I do think stacked sensors will eventually become the norm, just as CMOS sensors eventually replaced CCDs. And I think we've perhaps peaked in terms of sensor DR and noise (although others are probably far more knowledgeable that me about sensor tech potential). But there is always going to be far more to differentiate cameras that just the sensor design, as Canon's eye-AF and jumps in computational photography highlight.
If the A7 IV has a 33 MP stacked sensor there is no reason for the A92 to be better in frame rate, AF tracking, or most bells and whistles (although GPS would be one obvious exception) unless Sony purposely cripples the A7 IV in those areas. Sony has wisely decided not to do that in the past and I would be very disappointed if they did with the A7 IV. I think stacked sensors will become the norm, but for now they still seem to drive the cost of the camera up a lot, so I don't expect to see on in the A7 IV.
I can’t see Sony leaving the $4,000 camera range open so I really cannot see how Sony can release an entry level camera that competes against its own $4,500 model A9. Just makes zero financial sense. Why would Sony leave $2,000 on the table?
chez wrote:
I can’t see Sony leaving the $4,000 camera range open so I really cannot see how Sony can release an entry level camera that competes against its own $4,500 model A9. Just makes zero financial sense. Why would Sony leave $2,000 on the table?
Presumably it won't have a blackout free EVF, an almost infinite buffer or 20fps continous shooting. Maybe it tracks as well, the A7SIII is up there, but who knows. They'll hold enough back that somebody doing mainly birding or sports will stick with the A9II or A1.
Oct 04, 2021 at 05:30 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
LAARILEY wrote:
Presumably it won't have a blackout free EVF, an almost infinite buffer or 20fps continous shooting. Maybe it tracks as well, the A7SIII is up there, but who knows. They'll hold enough back that somebody doing mainly birding or sports will stick with the A9II or A1.
And I think that means they either don't use a stacked sensor or the they use a stacked sensor and cripple its use in the camera on purpose so they don't compete with the A9II. I doubt Sony will cripple the camera, so I don't think it will have a stacked sensor.
LAARILEY wrote:
Presumably it won't have a blackout free EVF, an almost infinite buffer or 20fps continous shooting. Maybe it tracks as well, the A7SIII is up there, but who knows. They'll hold enough back that somebody doing mainly birding or sports will stick with the A9II or A1.
By that logic the R6 should not exist, because other than build and battery and few other things that aren't that big of a deal it's a mirrorless 1DXIII in a small body. Makes a mockery of the 1DXIII pricing. A9 is nearly 5 years old now, not hard to believe an A7IV could get very close in performance even sans stacked sensor.
Pixel Perfect wrote:
By that logic the R6 should not exist, because other than build and battery and few other things that aren't that big of a deal it's a mirrorless 1DXIII in a small body. Makes a mockery of the 1DXIII pricing. A9 is nearly 5 years old now, not hard to believe an A7IV could get very close in performance even sans stacked sensor.
You're acting as though Sony hasn't already held features back time after time.
LAARILEY wrote:
Full HDMI is good. I'm guessing it'll support some flavour or ProRes (perhaps not RAW) externally.
You can actually record ProRes externally on just about any Sony camera; I've even done it with an old RX100 mark iii. But it's just a ProRes recording of Sony's already compressed video output so the only real benefit is that it's easier to deal with in an NLE. It doesn't give you any more latitude for grading, it's just easier on your computer's GPU. So if they want to offer the full benefits of ProRes I think they'd need to provide uncompressed video out; micro-HDMI can support that but full HDMI is a more robust connection.
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