bs kite wrote:
With the announcement of the Z9, Nikon committed to developing a camera that exceeds the D6 flagship.
I believe the Z9 is going to be *much* more than people are expecting it will be. I've been with Nikon a very long time and it seems to me that this is one of those times Nikon leap frogs over the other two competitors. We will soon see.
For me (at least initially), it will probably come down to money ($6000+ ) and weight (of the 400 2.8 w/built-in TC).
The rationale that Bruce posted above does make sense.
Robert, I think you can take encouragement from the great job Canon seems to have done with the new R3 stacked sensor camera. It's main competitor is the Sony a9(II). Canon managed to beat Sony's performance in a few areas. This is always easier when you go second and have a clear competitive target to benchmark.
The Nikon Z9 will be targeted more towards the Sony a1. Like Canon, Nikon has a clear and known competitive target to benchmark against. Nikon has the history and skills to be successful doing this. If Canon can do it, so can Nikon.
I am looking forward to seeing what Nikon actually comes up with. Like you, I am optimistic. I would love to see a three way technology race between relative equals. Fun to watch, and will benefit us all.
Powerful 5-axis VR image stabilization keeps your photos sharp and your videos steady—up to five stops in up to five directions* (yaw, pitch, roll, X and Y). Handheld shooting made easy.
I haven't read this statement anywhere just yet... I'm assuming the Z9 will have this or something similar? I love my D850... I just wish it had IBIS. The Z9 looks like it's going to be a monster!
hatch1921 wrote: Powerful 5-axis VR image stabilization keeps your photos sharp and your videos steady—up to five stops in up to five directions* (yaw, pitch, roll, X and Y). Handheld shooting made easy.
I haven't read this statement anywhere just yet... I'm assuming the Z9 will have this or something similar? I love my D850... I just wish it had IBIS. The Z9 looks like it's going to be a monster!
Hatch
All the full frame Z bodies have 5-axis IBIS so it would be extremely weird that Z9 doesn't have it (in fact I'd say it would be DOA). I would expect the IBIS in Z9 to be even more effective given their experience with first-gen Z cameras and a larger body.
pkmx wrote:
All the full frame Z bodies have 5-axis IBIS so it would be extremely weird that Z9 doesn't have it (in fact I'd say it would be DOA). I would expect the IBIS in Z9 to be even more effective given their experience with first-gen Z cameras and a larger body.
I figured it would have it or better...I just haven't read anything online about it. I'm looking forward to the reviews of the Z9. I'm not sure if I need or have a use for it at this moment...to justify the cost. I want IBIS and a few other things the camera has to offer. I think what I could really use is a robust Z7III or the mythical Z8 to replace the D850. Sill...pretty exciting times across all manufactures and the tech that is being offered.
I kind of think Nikon should basically not do a Z8 and just make the Z7III a Z9 without the vertical grip portion and call it the Z7III. The prosumer level can be the Z6 line, the Z7 line is the pro grade line and Z9 is the flagship. Granted yes I'm quite sure that's unrealistic though.
JadedWriter wrote:
I kind of think Nikon should basically not do a Z8 and just make the Z7III a Z9 without the vertical grip portion and call it the Z7III. The prosumer level can be the Z6 line, the Z7 line is the pro grade line and Z9 is the flagship. Granted yes I'm quite sure that's unrealistic though.
I agree, if there is a Z8 it might be a very high res studio camera to compete with purported R5s or sub 100MP MF cameras.
Z7III as you describe and "just" doing a lowly 20fps and with 5.76MP 120Hz EVF would be perfect. That would finally be a D850 killer.
Yeah that would be more than enough camera and I would be perfectly happy with it. D850 is still a very good camera. Pixel Perfect wrote:
I agree, if there is a Z8 it might be a very high res studio camera to compete with purported R5s or sub 100MP MF cameras.
Z7III as you describe and "just" doing a lowly 20fps and with 5.76MP 120Hz EVF would be perfect. That would finally be a D850 killer.
Sep 16, 2021 at 08:46 PM
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Pixel Perfect wrote:
I agree, if there is a Z8 it might be a very high res studio camera to compete with purported R5s or sub 100MP MF cameras.
Z7III as you describe and "just" doing a lowly 20fps and with 5.76MP 120Hz EVF would be perfect. That would finally be a D850 killer.
I have said it the other way around, the Z7 III should be the hi res studio camera and the Z8 should be the 20 fps stacked sensor smaller Z9, but it really doesn't matter which is labelled which. I think in addition to the Z9, which will be great but too expensive for a lot of folks, they need three cameras:
1) a high resolution but slower speed camera with something like 80-100 MP, but it need not have a stacked sensor, in fact it shouldn't to keep the price down and it can shoot a "mere" 5fps. I think we can expect such a camera by the end of 2022. Expect a $6,000 price tag.
2) a moderately high resolution stacked sensor camera that is around 20 fps, has a smaller buffer, a smaller EVF, and a smaller size than the Z9. If they can get this with a price below $5,000 I think it will be a hit, but I don't expect it too soon as it would cannibalize Z9 sales. Expect such a camera by the end of 2023.
3) an APS-C camera with moderate MP (20 or 24) and fast shooting speed of something like 20 fps. I don't think it needs to have a stacked sensor and I actually think it probably shouldn't have one to keep the price down. That means it will have some rolling shutter effect in some situations (something like the Canon R5 and R6). It won't have a blackout free viewfinder either, but it can still be a much improved experience over the Z6 and Z7. If they keep this camera under $2,000 it will be a major hit. Ideally Nikon would have this camera out by mid 2022, but realistically the end of 2022 is all that can be hoped for.
There is still a gap for a high speed lower MP FF camera with a stacked sensor. I would love to see Nikon build one of those and it could be what Nikon builds instead of the Z8 I described. Whether Nikon builds that I think depends on how soon Nikon thinks they will be putting a stacked sensor in the Z6 series. I think a full series of FF cameras in five years should look like:
Z5 (series) - low MP non-stacked sensor camera (price as low as possible but certainly below ($1,500)
Z6 (series) - low MP stacked sensor camera (price below $2,500)
Z7 (series) - high MP non-stacked sensor camera (priced below $6,000)
Z8 (series) - moderate MP stacked sensor camera with smaller size of EVF, smaller buffer, and no built-in grip compared to the Z9 (priced below $5,000)
Z9 (series) - well we know what that will look like and priced below $7,000
Of course Nikon could flip the Z7 and Z8 series and that would make a lot of sense if they did, but this as their FF line up I think will be a very strong set of cameras. We will probably just have to wait 5 years to get there.
I think that Nikon will release the Z9 this Fall on schedule as expected.
I think Nikon will release the high resolution camera sooner than most expect it. Probably Spring 2022.
This will give Nikon reasonable competitive positions against the a1, a7RIV, a7RIII, a7III, a6xx, lines of cameras from Sony. The primary holes will be the a9(II) and the a7IV. This makes Nikon very competitive against the mirrorless market leader. Even more so depending on how well the new version 2 of the adapter works making the extensive F mount library a rational choice for Nikon mirrorless shooters.
I don't think Nikon matches so well against the Canon mirrorless lineup. Nikon will have no direct competitors for the R3, R5, R6 Canon cameras for an extended period of time.
I think a high performance APSC camera is not a priority for any of the big brands. It will be a while before we see such a body from any of them.
It looks to me that as a reasonable level of parity is achieved between the three big Camera manufacturers , the days of mass brand switching will be over. We will back to the traditional leap frog technology competition. This is a great thing.
You don't think Nikon will build an upgrade to the D850. I could see Nikon producing a last gasp, monster classic DSLR with 80-100Mp. Great platform. Lots of lenses. Leave the speed to the mirrorless cameras.
Nikon likes to build these 20 percentile (of the market) historical variants that end up in glass cabinets in 15 years.
You don't think Nikon will build an upgrade to the D850. I could see Nikon producing a last gasp, monster classic DSLR with 80-100Mp. Great platform. Lots of lenses. Leave the speed to the mirrorless cameras.
Nikon likes to build these 20 percentile (of the market) historical variants that end up in glass cabinets in 15 years.
For a long time, I was certain they would upgrade the D850.
Then came a Nikon Rumors article within which a Nikon exec said that the D850 upgrade would have to wait because of the need to develop the Z9 (I am paraphrasing, but I clearly remember him mentioning this). I just searched NR for that article and could not find it.
Sorry, I just do not know more than that. Does anyone have any information on this?
1bwana1 wrote:
I think that Nikon will release the Z9 this Fall on schedule as expected.
I think Nikon will release the high resolution camera sooner than most expect it. Probably Spring 2022.
This will give Nikon reasonable competitive positions against the a1, a7RIV, a7RIII, a7III, a6xx, lines of cameras from Sony. The primary holes will be the a9(II) and the a7IV. This makes Nikon very competitive against the mirrorless market leader. Even more so depending on how well the new version 2 of the adapter works making the extensive F mount library a rational choice for Nikon mirrorless shooters.
I don't think Nikon matches so well against the Canon mirrorless lineup. Nikon will have no direct competitors for the R3, R5, R6 Canon cameras for an extended period of time.
I think a high performance APSC camera is not a priority for any of the big brands. It will be a while before we see such a body from any of them.
It looks to me that as a reasonable level of parity is achieved between the three big Camera manufacturers , the days of mass brand switching will be over. We will back to the traditional leap frog technology competition. This is a great thing....Show more →
I think Nikon's competitiveness vs. Canon depends on what you want. Nikon will have the Z9 and Canon at least for now has nothing competitive with it. Similarly Canon has nothing that really competes with the Z5 and they currently have no APS-C cameras with an R mount. You are right that Nikon doesn't really compete with the R3, R5, or R6, but Canon doesn't have cameras to compete with several of Nikon's cameras either (the Z9, the high MP camera if you are right and they bring it out soon, and the Z5). The truth is both Canon and Nikon still will need 3 to 5 years to have a full line up of mirrorless cameras
Both Nikon and Canon, however, are making some really nice cameras, and will in time put together a very nice line of cameras with a really nice set of lenses for those cameras. I don't think it is a question if this will happen, just when and for lots of folks they already have what they need. The advantage both these companies have over Sony is their legacy lenses which work really well with their mirrorless cameras. Perhaps not well enough for everyone, but well enough for lots and lots of people and they offer lenses at some focal lengths and apertures that are much cheaper alternatives and in a number of cases not available in mirrorless. That is the Nikon and Canon advantage for now. In time there may be other advantages, and I can't really see any chance that all three companies won't offer really compelling options in the long run.
bs kite wrote:
For a long time, I was certain they would upgrade the D850.
Then came a Nikon Rumors article within which a Nikon exec said that the D850 upgrade would have to wait because of the need to develop the Z9 (I am paraphrasing, but I clearly remember him mentioning this). I just searched NR for that article and could not find it.
Sorry, I just do not know more than that. Does anyone have any information on this?
Robert
Good Light
My hunch is that the development department already has a D880 almost ready to go, based on the Z7 sensor and the improments of the D780 vs. the D750.
But with all strategic units scrambling to figure out how and where to source parts for their existing camera models, adding another model to the lineup is probably the last thing the procurement guys and gals at the big camera manufacturers want to cope with - unless it is essential for the brand, as is the case for the Z9.
Thus, to me it appears absolutely reasonable that the D850 successor has to wait until things calm down after the release of the Z9. I don't read that as an indication that there will not be a successor to the D850.
Some of the older lenses will probably work better on newer F mount cameras than on newer Z mount cameras, because their AF is build around phase detect focus. Because people will not simply throw away their lenses - and may well be willing to spend 4k on a camera to get the most out of 10-30k of lenses, there is also likely sufficient demand for a D850 successor camera.
Personally I would not expect to see D880.
Basically, Nikon most likely will need an answer to R5 sometimes in the future. I could see that being
Z7 iii with Z9 sensor with 20 FPS. D880 could use the same sensor as well but realistically, I doubt Nikon would release any camera that share Z9 sensor soon after release of Z9. At the earliest, end of 2020 or early 2023?
Also there is a question that how many F mount lens will support 20 FPS. I doubt the F mount supertele will support 30 FPS so people who want to see the full potential of Z9 will need to migrate to Z mount lens for that.
We know that you can get 14 FPS on D6 with many lenses but at 20 FPS, I am not sure how many lens will have a diaphragm and motors that will keep up with that. Also designing a mirrorbox that support 20 FPS is not going to be easy and most likely rather expensive.
Nikon could go the cheaper route and reuse Z7 ii sensor in D880 but then we most likely will get 10FPS with D6 AF module. I think most people will be rather disappointed with that and Nikon would sitll have nothing to compete with R5. If anything I think R5 put the nail in D880 coffin.
suteetat wrote:
Personally I would not expect to see D880.
Basically, Nikon most likely will need an answer to R5 sometimes in the future. I could see that being
Z7 iii with Z9 sensor with 20 FPS. D880 could use the same sensor as well but realistically, I doubt Nikon would release any camera that share Z9 sensor soon after release of Z9. At the earliest, end of 2020 or early 2023?
Also there is a question that how many F mount lens will support 20 FPS. I doubt the F mount supertele will support 30 FPS so people who want to see the full potential of Z9 will need to migrate to Z mount lens for that.
We know that you can get 14 FPS on D6 with many lenses but at 20 FPS, I am not sure how many lens will have a diaphragm and motors that will keep up with that. Also designing a mirrorbox that support 20 FPS is not going to be easy and most likely rather expensive.
Nikon could go the cheaper route and reuse Z7 ii sensor in D880 but then we most likely will get 10FPS with D6 AF module. I think most people will be rather disappointed with that and Nikon would sitll have nothing to compete with R5. If anything I think R5 put the nail in D880 coffin. ...Show more →
Just as with the D850 (and also the D780, for that matter), FPS will likely not be an important aspect for the D850 successor (i.e. the "D880"), if such a camera will be released. Also, it will not compete against other current models but simply offer an option to keep using high-quality F mount glass for those who don't want or are unable to spend 30k for a basic telephoto Z setup. Thus, it's not a priority for Nikon, but still a product that is probably expected to bring in cash.
AcuteShadows wrote:
Just as with the D850 (and also the D780, for that matter), FPS will likely not be an important aspect for the D850 successor (i.e. the "D880"), if such a camera will be released. Also, it will not compete against other current models but simply offer an option to keep using high-quality F mount glass for those who don't want or are unable to spend 30k for a basic telephoto Z setup. Thus, it's not a priority for Nikon, but still a product that is probably expected to bring in cash.
Depends on how you are looking at it. D850 was great as it was the best all around camera. Great for portrait, landscape. Good enough AF and decent enough FPS for wildlife, birds etc.
A7r iii/IV chanllenges it for the best all around camera and D850 was holding its own ok. Then R5 happens.
As I said, if D880 offers Z7 ii sensor with 10 FPS, D6 AF module, considering the competition, would you be satisfied with this upgrade? Personally, I dont consider that a worthwhile enough upgrade to bother. If D880 goes 80MP , slower body like rumoured Z8, would that be better?
At the moment, Z7 ii is already a good enough upgrade for D850 for just about every use except action/bird in flight. With upcoming fw update, if its AF-C proves to be at least equal to D850, ( very realistic, I think) then I personally consider it an upgrade to D850 already.
I honestly think what Nikon has to do is do what Canon did and just kill off the DSLR mount (It's time to rip this band aid off already) and just dedicate all of their resources into mirrorless and be done with it. Sony killed A mount, Canon killed EF mount and Nikon needs to lower the casket on F mount already. The EF userbase knows this already and I'm not sure how vocal the cries for this were, but Canon seems to be doing just fine in my opinion. AcuteShadows wrote:
My hunch is that the development department already has a D880 almost ready to go, based on the Z7 sensor and the improments of the D780 vs. the D750.
But with all strategic units scrambling to figure out how and where to source parts for their existing camera models, adding another model to the lineup is probably the last thing the procurement guys and gals at the big camera manufacturers want to cope with - unless it is essential for the brand, as is the case for the Z9.
Thus, to me it appears absolutely reasonable that the D850 successor has to wait until things calm down after the release of the Z9. I don't read that as an indication that there will not be a successor to the D850.
Some of the older lenses will probably work better on newer F mount cameras than on newer Z mount cameras, because their AF is build around phase detect focus. Because people will not simply throw away their lenses - and may well be willing to spend 4k on a camera to get the most out of 10-30k of lenses, there is also likely sufficient demand for a D850 successor camera....Show more →
JadedWriter wrote:
I honestly think what Nikon has to do is do what Canon did and just kill off the DSLR mount (It's time to rip this band aid off already) and just dedicate all of their resources into mirrorless and be done with it. Sony killed A mount, Canon killed EF mount and Nikon needs to lower the casket on F mount already. The EF userbase knows this already and I'm not sure how vocal the cries for this were, but Canon seems to be doing just fine in my opinion.
I agree. Nikon is not a big enough company to float two (four if you differentiate between FX/DX) different platforms when they're already losing so much market share. F-Mount had an incredible run, but it's time to focus on the future and drop the millstone around their neck. Frankly, despite not communicating it openly I think they've functionally done it already anyways.
) and weight (of the 400 2.8 w/built-in TC).