1bwana1 wrote:
I will be very surprised if the adapted F Mount lenses can do 30 fps, possibly not even the 20 fps. I am expecting somewhere near 15 fps. This is common in other lines as well. They were not designed for those spends and I don't think their motors can keep up.
So far we don't have any feedback from the field, or statements from Nikon on this. In acknowledgement of that I state it as an expectation and am open to be surprised.
15fps works for me on the Z9 until the Z version of the 500pf comes out, better yet a 600pf Z would make me much happier!
I guess the Z8 with the Z9 sensor is highly unlikely and that'll mean Nikon will have 3 Z cameras with 45 MP.....it will totally mess up the product lines...maybe a higher megapixel camera, 80+MP non-stacked sensor with some advanced tricks like the R5 would make more sense...
Steve Spencer wrote:
I totally agree with your assessment here, but I keep hearing rumors the Z8 will use the same sensor as the Z9 but be a smaller body and not have the processing power of the Z9. It will be interesting whether Nikon decides to go that way or with a higher MP Z8. I have thought that the higher MP camera with be the Z7 III, but who knows.
mogul wrote:
Nikon like Sony A mount have mechanical apertures (excepting newer Nikon lenses) which does limit fps somewhat.
Nikon might be able to solve this problem as Canon has: for continuous shooting stopped down, the initial AF for the first frame is done with the lens wide open but for all subsequent shots the aperture remains stopped down and AF continues without the aperture opening and closing.
cpe1991 wrote:
Nikon might be able to solve this problem as Canon has: for continuous shooting stopped down, the initial AF for the first frame is done with the lens wide open but for all subsequent shots the aperture remains stopped down and AF continues without the aperture opening and closing.
Makes sound engineering sense.
Don't the D5 and D6 keep the aperture closed when firing at high fps 12 / 14 fps ?
gannis wrote:
I guess the Z8 with the Z9 sensor is highly unlikely and that'll mean Nikon will have 3 Z cameras with 45 MP.....it will totally mess up the product lines...maybe a higher megapixel camera, 80+MP non-stacked sensor with some advanced tricks like the R5 would make more sense...
What I am suggesting is an 80ish MP non-stacked BSI Z7 III without fast shooting capabilities for $4,000 or so; a 45 MP stacked BSI with less processing power, a smaller buffer, and a smaller size for the Z8 for $5,000 and the current specs for the Z9 for $6,500. I think that line up works.
Aug 11, 2021 at 07:28 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
I think the biggest questions that remain for the Z9 is what the "stacked" part of the sensor will do. Will it just speed up the sensor as we see with the stacked sensors from Sony. That would be great in and of itself, but there have been hints that the "stacked" parts of the sensor will do more. In particular, there are claims floating around that the "stacked" part of the sensor will expand DR and especially high ISO shooting. That sounds great and if it delivers it will be wonderful. We could have performance that at least matches the Z7(II) with ISO 64 for base ISO and have high ISO performance that at least matches the D5 and D6. I worry, however, that what we will get is just the performance of the Z7 (II) sensor with baked in noise reduction that is applied by the "stacked" sensor. If that is what we get I will be really disappointed. So, I am both hopeful and concerned about the nature of the "stack" in the stacked BSI sensor. I will be very interested to hear what Nikon is actually doing as we get more details about the camera.
Benchmark for all of the action mirrorless cameras is now a stacked sensor which enables blackout free shooting and fast redout speeds (silent shooting in ES mode and flash with ES). Like Arbitrage noticed - there is no info about those features. Specs are alright but imho will be down to those two features if Nikon is at the top of the game or not. I hope they are. It would be even better if it turns out ot be an awesome Towerjazz sensor with a stacked BSI architecture.
Steve Spencer wrote:
I think the biggest questions that remain for the Z9 is what the "stacked" part of the sensor will do. Will it just speed up the sensor as we see with the stacked sensors from Sony. That would be great in and of itself, but there have been hints that the "stacked" parts of the sensor will do more. In particular, there are claims floating around that the "stacked" part of the sensor will expand DR and especially high ISO shooting. That sounds great and if it delivers it will be wonderful. We could have performance that at least matches the Z7(II) with ISO 64 for base ISO and have high ISO performance that at least matches the D5 and D6. I worry, however, that what we will get is just the performance of the Z7 (II) sensor with baked in noise reduction that is applied by the "stacked" sensor. If that is what we get I will be really disappointed. So, I am both hopeful and concerned about the nature of the "stack" in the stacked BSI sensor. I will be very interested to hear what Nikon is actually doing as we get more details about the camera....Show more →
I will be surprised if Nikon needs to do some noise reduction to get dynamic range at low or high ISO.
Canon seems to have experienced some still undisclosed issues at low ISO in the R5 and had to process the images.
The Sony A1 has superb read noise performance https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/RN_e.htm#Nikon%20Z%207II_14,Sony%20ILCE-1_14,
so there is no motivation to process the raw data.
The Nikon Z9 should have access to the same technology.
As always, the devil is in the details. We are still missing so much important information about the Z9.
I really do expect that the Z9 will be fully competitive in all meaningful areas. It will be different is some ways from the Sony and Canon offerings. But this is a good thing. It will likely reflect the Nikon esthetics , ergonomics, and workflow that current Nikon users are accustomed to. AS far as DR and noise, this has been an area where Nikon has a history of leading the industry. I expect that Nikon will work hard to maintain this reputation in the Z9. I am not sure whether this will be evident in the ISO 64 area like the D850, or the high ISO area like the D6. It is after all a high speed action orientated camera. If they do both it will be a unique accomplishment and worthy of some bragging rights.
I think the Z9 will set new benchmarks in many areas of Nikon camera performance. Those that buy it will probably be very happy with their purchase, love the images created, and be very proud of Nikons accomplishment in building such a camera.
400/2.8 with built-in 1.4x TC !
A 600/4 with built in TC might be enough to get me to change from A1/600GM to Z9/600S.
How does a 2x work? I assume use the lens w/o the built-in TC and a 2x rather than stack another 1.4x.
Oh wow....400/2.8 with 1.4TC built in....that could be coming close to my dream 600/4 PF. Maybe I'm going to have to wait out this Z9 and not blow my camera fund on R3/RF600....hmmmm.....
Looking at the photos published so far and if my calculations are about right, I am getting around 135mm in height for the Z9. Width looks to be similar to the Z6II/Z7II at ~135mm. This makes it sit about 35mm higher than the Z7II bare, 17-18mm higher than my Z7II with SmallRig plate attached, about 10mm higher than the D850 and about 18mm lower than the D6. At that size, it looks quite diminute for it's supposed ability compared to say the D6 and not much different in volume to the D850.
arbitrage wrote:
Oh wow....400/2.8 with 1.4TC built in....that could be coming close to my dream 600/4 PF. Maybe I'm going to have to wait out this Z9 and not blow my camera fund on R3/RF600....hmmmm.....
Or wait for the 600 f/4 + 1.4x which is a given. At least the Nikon superteles won't be just DSLR lenses with an adapted bolted on permanently. Z9 obviously will have a huge reach advantage when FL limited. Would have been nice to see a 1.7x TC built-in on the 400, 680 f/4.8 would be really nice and barely noticeably different to 600 f/4.
dclark wrote:
400/4 with built-in 1.4x TC !
A 600/4 with built in TC might be enough to get me to change from A1/600GM to Z9/600.
How does a 2x work? I assume use the lens w/o the built-in TC and a 2x rather than stack another 1.4x.
Either way I suspect if it's like the Canon. You could get 1120 f/8 with 2x and the 1.4x in place. Does the Nikon 180-400 allow both combos?
dclark wrote:
I will be surprised if Nikon needs to do some noise reduction to get dynamic range at low or high ISO.
Canon seems to have experienced some still undisclosed issues at low ISO in the R5 and had to process the images.
The Sony A1 has superb read noise performance https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/RN_e.htm#Nikon%20Z%207II_14,Sony%20ILCE-1_14,
so there is no motivation to process the raw data.
The Nikon Z9 should have access to the same technology.
Dave
Canon's sensor tech always seems to have higher read noise at low ISO and will be interesting to see how this new stacked sensor holds up. Recall the A9 sensor had 4x the read noise of the A7RIII sensor and DR was over 1EV lower. This was primarily due to the extra noise caused by the high clock speed of the ADCs. A9II improved things by about 0.5EV and A1 is only a tad worse than A7RIII/IV. Will the R3 go backward compared to R5, will it also suffer the huge DR loss with ES that the R5 suffers below ISO400?
Steve Spencer wrote:
What I am suggesting is an 80ish MP non-stacked BSI Z7 III without fast shooting capabilities for $4,000 or so; a 45 MP stacked BSI with less processing power, a smaller buffer, and a smaller size for the Z8 for $5,000 and the current specs for the Z9 for $6,500. I think that line up works.
I would have thought that Z8 will be the high MP camera to challenge the rumoured R5s which is said to be testing sensors of 75-80MP. Z7III can still be 45MP just all new sensor with much faster scan speed, even if not stacked at least 1/60s so ES is usable for action, and the higher scan speeds allow for far higher AF speed combined with new animal eye tracking and probably others given we are hearing about motorsports tracking as well from Canon.
Don't forget Sony no doubt will want to hit back hard at R5 with the A7RV, so Z7III needs to be a huge upgrade as R5 will no doubt be two years old at least when Z7III drops. I would actually like Sony A7RV to dump 61MP and go back to a sensor in the high 40MPs and add 8K30, 4K120p, 6K60p.
..... ain’t that the ttruth Steve