arbitrage wrote:
Well my question stands...why do you care who fabbed the sensor? Although I wasn't really asking for a response, just more of a statement that I don't understand why it matters to people? But since you replied I guess I would be curious to know why it matters to you?
I have to say I do care about who the fab partner is. But not for any brand war reasons but just as a matter of interest since I’m a bit of a nerd.
I’ve followed sensor development for years, well b4 the current points of contention between Nikon, Sony Imaging and Sony Semiconductor.
It really is quite fascinating to me and my interest extends to other developments in the chip business as well as tech in general. I take a gander every so often at what patents Nikon are publishing for example.
As to why it matters in photography, it gives us clues as to the direction that the chip designs are going and what capabilities one might expect, in current as well as future iterations.
I went to a Z9 launch event last evening the SF bay area. Evidently only the third such event they have held. Nikon offered a hat and t shirt, snacks and drinks, and the opportunity to play with a pre-production Z9 for a minute. The event was sponsored by a local camera shop who was taking preorders, and I think they got several. They offered a hoodman 512gb cfx card with every preorder. Maybe not the best card, but not a terrible deal either. I think there is going to be a reasonably long wait for the Z9 from the look of things..not a big shocker.
As far as the presentation goes, there was about 30 minutes of nikon staff-lead hype followed by about 40 minutes by a professional wedding photographer who has been using the Z9 the past couple of weeks. It all sounds pretty darn impressive...These current gen cameras are really, really amazing photographic tools. Afterwards I got to play with a Z9 for a minute with the new 100-400 attached.
While my impressions are decidedly un-scientific, I will say the camera does seem to be pretty snappy and the af tracking was pretty tenacious at least as far as tracking people in a room with medicore light goes. Relative to my R5 the camera does seem pretty big and heavy, and that's one of my issues with it..But it also felt really solid and well built as you would expect from a Nikon pro body.
I am not going to preorder the camera, but I do think Nikon has a real winner here. With AF tracking as good as anyone, 20fps (ok not the fastest but really do you need more) in raw and up to 120fps at 11mp jpeg, 8k video (overkill for me) for up to a couple of hours, I think the Z9 looks to be a worthy flagship. Plus, I got a hat and t shirt!!
swifty168 wrote:
I have to say I do care about who the fab partner is. But not for any brand war reasons but just as a matter of interest since I’m a bit of a nerd.
I’ve followed sensor development for years, well b4 the current points of contention between Nikon, Sony Imaging and Sony Semiconductor.
It really is quite fascinating to me and my interest extends to other developments in the chip business as well as tech in general. I take a gander every so often at what patents Nikon are publishing for example.
As to why it matters in photography, it gives us clues as to the direction that the chip designs are going and what capabilities one might expect, in current as well as future iterations....Show more →
That makes sense and a reasonable reason. I'm certainly interested in sensor design and advancements being made.
Just seems it ends up being a brand war thing so often and seems like a weird "spec" to matter in that "war". We've got Sony fans thinking it is so great when Sony fabs a Nikon or Canon sensor and then Nikon and Canon fans so pumped when it is anyone but Sony that has fabbed their sensor.
cohenfive wrote:
I went to a Z9 launch event last evening the SF bay area. Evidently only the third such event they have held. Nikon offered a hat and t shirt, snacks and drinks, and the opportunity to play with a pre-production Z9 for a minute. The event was sponsored by a local camera shop who was taking preorders, and I think they got several. They offered a hoodman 512gb cfx card with every preorder. Maybe not the best card, but not a terrible deal either. I think there is going to be a reasonably long wait for the Z9 from the look of things..not a big shocker.
As far as the presentation goes, there was about 30 minutes of nikon lead hype followed by about 40 minutes by a professional wedding photographer who has been using the Z9 the past couple of weeks. It all sounds pretty darn impressive...These current gen cameras are really, really amazing photographic tools. Afterwards I got to play with a Z9 for a minute with the new 100-400 attached.
While my impressions are decidedly un-scientific, I will say the camera does seem to be pretty snappy and the af tracking was pretty tenacious at least as far as tracking people in a room with medicore light goes. Relative to my R5 the camera does seem pretty big and heavy, and that's one of my issues with it..But it also felt really solid and well built as you would expect from a Nikon pro body.
I am not going to preorder the camera, but I do think Nikon has a real winner here. With AF tracking as good as anyone, 20fps (ok not the fastest but really do you need more) in raw and up to 120fps at 11mp jpeg, 8k video (overkill for me) for up to a couple of hours, I think the Z9 looks to be a worthy flagship. Plus, I got a hat and t shirt!!...Show more →
How did 100-400s feel in your hands, did you like it?
arbitrage wrote:
That makes sense and a reasonable reason. I'm certainly interested in sensor design and advancements being made.
Just seems it ends up being a brand war thing so often and seems like a weird "spec" to matter in that "war". We've got Sony fans thinking it is so great when Sony fabs a Nikon or Canon sensor and then Nikon and Canon fans so pumped when it is anyone but Sony that has fabbed their sensor.
It is not just about a "war" but about about profit stream...if all the components of a camera are made by Sony, who is making money? Lenses are like ink in a printer, that is where the profits are to be made.
cohenfive wrote:
I went to a Z9 launch event last evening the SF bay area. Evidently only the third such event they have held. Nikon offered a hat and t shirt, snacks and drinks, and the opportunity to play with a pre-production Z9 for a minute. The event was sponsored by a local camera shop who was taking preorders, and I think they got several. They offered a hoodman 512gb cfx card with every preorder. Maybe not the best card, but not a terrible deal either. I think there is going to be a reasonably long wait for the Z9 from the look of things..not a big shocker.
As far as the presentation goes, there was about 30 minutes of nikon lead hype followed by about 40 minutes by a professional wedding photographer who has been using the Z9 the past couple of weeks. It all sounds pretty darn impressive...These current gen cameras are really, really amazing photographic tools. Afterwards I got to play with a Z9 for a minute with the new 100-400 attached.
While my impressions are decidedly un-scientific, I will say the camera does seem to be pretty snappy and the af tracking was pretty tenacious at least as far as tracking people in a room with medicore light goes. Relative to my R5 the camera does seem pretty big and heavy, and that's one of my issues with it..But it also felt really solid and well built as you would expect from a Nikon pro body.
I am not going to preorder the camera, but I do think Nikon has a real winner here. With AF tracking as good as anyone, 20fps (ok not the fastest but really do you need more) in raw and up to 120fps at 11mp jpeg, 8k video (overkill for me) for up to a couple of hours, I think the Z9 looks to be a worthy flagship. Plus, I got a hat and t shirt!!...Show more →
Ive ordered the camera and lenses but interested in the hat! Is it a Z hat?
cvrle59 wrote:
How did 100-400s feel in your hands, did you like it?
It felt really solid. The combo was pretty beefy, not one that will be known for its compact size. I never liked the current 80-400, so this lens will likely fill a really big gaping hole in the nikon lens lineup. I love my ef 100-400ii so if the new z 100-400s is as good or better (likely), it will be a really good lens. No way to pixel peep with it as they wouldn't let anyone take a pic with a card in the camera for obvious reasons.
George DeCamp wrote:
Ive ordered the camera and lenses but interested in the hat! Is it a Z hat?
It is a black hat with a big Z on the side/front, and nikon in the back. Nice hat. Mine is L/XL so it is likely too big for me. I might be amenable to parting with it....
cohenfive wrote:
It is a black hat with a big Z on the side/front, and nikon in the back. Nice hat. Mine is L/XL so it is likely too big for me. I might be amenable to parting with it....
I weighed my A1 with battery grip with 2 batteries and 2 memory cards inside and that was 1100g compared to 1340g for Z9 with battery and cards.
I mounted my 500PF on the A1 via the Commlite adapter to get a feel for the balance. The FTZ is about 50% longer than the Commlite...not sure of the weight differences (I'll weigh those next).
500PF even with the adapter still feels like a much better balance than the 200-600. Sometimes I feel my 600GM is easier to balance the weight than the 200-600. The 200-600 is just so dense. I still remember the day I opened the box for the 200-600, lifted it out and almost put it back in to return it as it felt like such a heft. Of course in those days I was mostly shooting Sony 100-400 or Nikon 500PF so the 200-600 was a beasty. That said, it is lighter than Nikon 200-500 and way better to use so those used to that 200-500 may feel the 200-600 a nicer weight. We shall see what the Nikon 200-600 ends up being size, weight and spec wise.
500PF even with the adapter still feels like a much better balance than the 200-600.
This is where I'm at...the 500pf combo just feels easier to shoot based on how well balanced it is. Thanks for posting your thoughts about the two combos.
arbitrage wrote:
I weighed my A1 with battery grip with 2 batteries and 2 memory cards inside and that was 1100g compared to 1340g for Z9 with battery and cards.
I mounted my 500PF on the A1 via the Commlite adapter to get a feel for the balance. The FTZ is about 50% longer than the Commlite...not sure of the weight differences (I'll weigh those next).
500PF even with the adapter still feels like a much better balance than the 200-600. Sometimes I feel my 600GM is easier to balance the weight than the 200-600. The 200-600 is just so dense. I still remember the day I opened the box for the 200-600, lifted it out and almost put it back in to return it as it felt like such a heft. Of course in those days I was mostly shooting Sony 100-400 or Nikon 500PF so the 200-600 was a beasty. That said, it is lighter than Nikon 200-500 and way better to use so those used to that 200-500 may feel the 200-600 a nicer weight. We shall see what the Nikon 200-600 ends up being size, weight and spec wise....Show more →
One interesting design that Nikon made for 100-400 is that when the zoom is extended, not all front elements move forward.
They showed the diagram where front element moved forward and element behind it moved backward. The effect is to
keep center of balance unchanged and stayed closer to the camera regardless of zoom range so the set up is not front heavy when fully extended.
I wonder if similar design may be incorprated into 200-600 as well? That would be a nice feature.
suteetat wrote:
One interesting design that Nikon made for 100-400 is that when the zoom is extended, not all front elements move forward.
They showed the diagram where front element moved forward and element behind it moved backward. The effect is to
keep center of balance unchanged and stayed closer to the camera regardless of zoom range so the set up is not front heavy when fully extended.
I wonder if similar design may be incorprated into 200-600 as well? That would be a nice feature.
Judging from how big that outline of the 200-600 is compared to other lenses, I'm really hoping that is internal zoom. If that is external it is going to be a long lens when at 600mm. Even if they pull off something similar to the 100-400 to keep the zoom extension and weight shift smaller.
arbitrage wrote:
Judging from how big that outline of the 200-600 is compared to other lenses, I'm really hoping that is internal zoom. If that is external it is going to be a long lens when at 600mm. Even if they pull off something similar to the 100-400 to keep the zoom extension and weight shift smaller.
My unscientific forensic investigation suggests it is an internal zoom. Compare the silhouette to the Sony version -- very similar -- and relative scaling vs. the 100-400Z indicates the 200-600Z is a couple inches longer than the Sony, so it must be an internal zoom design.
After careful consideration I elected to cancel my Z9 pre order. I am already so heavily invested (6 RF lenses) and a R5. I haven't found any significant faults with my applications used on the R5 (no video I'm just a photographer). I'm sure the Z9 is a duly amazing piece of tech. But one major consideration I had to look at was by waiting till this next summer, I will have accumulated enough $$ that if I decided to make the move/switch, I could do it without any financing. Also I am hanging on to see what the R1 is going to be. If it is a Quad Pixel BSI Stacked sensor, with a 10mp blackout and lag free increased dynamic range EVF I'm all in for THAT. If it disappoints and they hold back on the tech I may well switch. But the best part of it all is that is 6 months to see the plethora of folks that will be wringing it out and seeing what it can (and can't) do well if anything. That would only build my confidence in any decision I'd make. But as mentioned if the R1 met my desires, the upgrade would be a ton less of an investment. We will just have to see. And I'll just have to be patient.
arbitrage wrote:
That makes sense and a reasonable reason. I'm certainly interested in sensor design and advancements being made.
Just seems it ends up being a brand war thing so often and seems like a weird "spec" to matter in that "war". We've got Sony fans thinking it is so great when Sony fabs a Nikon or Canon sensor and then Nikon and Canon fans so pumped when it is anyone but Sony that has fabbed their sensor.
Yea .. gotta cut through all the noise to the interesting parts.
To me, the sensor characteristic I find most intriguing about the Z9 sensor is the dual data stream bit. I think it might be Thom who speculates there’s at least another simultaneous stream for AF so the sensor is capable of multiple reads including full sensor read simultaneously that I don’t recall seeing before.
Lots of unknowns still, such as there’s nothing to suggest the other simultaneous reads are full sensor or (probably more likely) just a subset.
And does it have anything to do with the full pixel count given at 51MP but 45MP effective. 6MP is an awful lot of optical blacks and what not.
And perhaps 3.69m dots EVF stream may be a limitation associated with the simultaneous reads.
Sensor designs tend to be iterative (with a few jumps every now and then) so we may expect incremental improvements in this simultaneous read characteristics in subsequent sensors based on the same design.
But what camera will Nikon also use a stacked sensor? I think by getting rid of a high performance mechanical shutter Nikon saved a bundle in costs, and reflected in the Z9 pricing. I was of the opinion stacked sensors would be only for Nikon flagships for a while but since Nikon are confident enough to drop the shutter, the cost savings may justify stacked sensors further down the lineup. I can see a DX flagship without shutter for example with a higher pixel density (but less total pixel count) that would effective improve the sensor scan due to the smaller bandwidth required for full sensor read.
arbitrage wrote:
Not sure why anyone would care who fabbed the sensor. I'd care more about who designed it but even then, in the end, all I care about is how it works. I'm sure all these big sensor fabricators do similar work and quality control whether it is Tower or Sony or Canon or other.
Because it is probably going to mean the difference between 30fps RAW and 30fps JPG (normal).
duncang wrote:
Because it is probably going to mean the difference between 30fps RAW and 30fps JPG (normal).
Let assumed Z9 sensor is made by Tower and let just say that its read speed is faster than A1 (as Nikon claimed) then obviously
the bottleneck for 30 fps RAW is elsewhere and not the sensor. Stick A1 sensor inside Z9, you wont magically get
30 fps raw all else remains the same in Z9.
Also if I understand how sensor works, whether you are shooting raw or jpg, the sensor send out the same data and it is the
processor and whatever downstream that put out raw file or jpg file, no?
Also if Z9 will support 12 bits 8k/60fps raw video with internal recording with future fw, there is a very good chance
Nikon will support some form of 30 fps still that is more than jpg as well but we will know for sure when Nikon releases the
firmware.
Is it a Z hat?