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Archive 2021 · New Z9 Specs (NR) Aug 10th, 2021

  
 
ilkka_nissila
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p.13 #1 · New Z9 Specs (NR) Aug 10th, 2021


bs kite wrote:
Nikon has made it clear that they will focus entirely on developing the mirrorless line for now.


Where have they said that?

In Feb 2020 they answered in a dpr interview "[DPR:] Do you have a sense of the timeframe over which you’ll transition customers away from DSLR, eventually?

[Nikon:] We haven’t finalized our plan yet. At this time I can say that we will prioritize both DSLR and mirrorless. We also want to complete our Z system: that’s the first priority. At a certain point, we hope that all DSLR customers will [ultimately] be satisfied by the features provided by mirrorless, and will shift to the Z system. That’s the goal. But until then, we will continue to develop DSLRs."

In this article January 2021 https://www.techradar.com/news/nikon-will-focus-on-mirrorless-cameras-rather-than-dslrs-for-the-time-being they say "For the time being, we will concentrate on mirrorless cameras".

This isn't quite the same as only developing mirrorless products from now on.


But this mirrorless thing is much different. Transitioning to mirrorless is like the transition to digital from film.


It's really not. Both DSLRs and mirrorless cameras are digital cameras and use the same post-processing infrastructure. With film the problem was that the infrastructure largely disappeared.

Film imaging required film manufacture and processing and many people stopped shooting film because there were no local labs that they were used to and could trust, so there was no choice. There has been a bit of revitalization of film photography and prices of some film cameras have increased significantly from where they were when there was a mass exodus to digital. However, this is more a niche activity now, done probably for the different look and feel of film photography. It's still not practical to use for day-in-day-out photography as that has been taken up by digital. Black and white darkroom users might disagree though.

Anyway, this forum seems inundantated with doctrine that says that one must always have the latest technology. This isn't really reflected in the wider world as many people continue to use existing, older gear, until it fails to be usable. From the point of view of nature and ecology, it would be best if the purchase price of a new product included the cost of recycling of the materials and re-naturalization of the mines, capture of all the pollution from water, soil and atmosphere and reversing the impact of the manufacture of the product once it is no longer in use. That would discourage unnecessary purchases and make it possible to experience a healthy and safe living environment for future generations.



Sep 21, 2021 at 05:26 AM
Ripolini
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p.13 #2 · New Z9 Specs (NR) Aug 10th, 2021


ilkka_nissila wrote:
From the point of view of nature and ecology, it would be best if the purchase price of a new product included the cost of recycling of the materials and re-naturalization of the mines, capture of all the pollution from water, soil and atmosphere and reversing the impact of the manufacture of the product once it is no longer in use. That would discourage unnecessary purchases and make it possible to experience a healthy and safe living environment for future generations.


I guess that shareholders of companies manufacturing cameras and lenses, and politicians as well, have different opinions ...



Sep 21, 2021 at 06:55 AM
hatch1921
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p.13 #3 · New Z9 Specs (NR) Aug 10th, 2021


Pixel Perfect wrote:
30 fps is something I would use extremely rarely. Heck I rarely use 20fps on my A9, but it is welcome for specific situations. I hope the Z9 has the ability to freely adjust the fps in Hi, Med and Lo like on Canon 1D series. R5 and R6 are locked at 20fps in ES which is a ridiculous situation.


I was surprised to learn the R5 wasn't "adjustable" or at least lacked options to shoot a variety of FPS. I do hope Z9 has something as you mentioned above. I think 5PS increments would be amazing.

I'd be excited if I could just double the FPS of the D850 at this point.

Hatch



Sep 21, 2021 at 10:47 AM
arbitrage
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p.13 #4 · New Z9 Specs (NR) Aug 10th, 2021


bs kite wrote:
I can’t see disciplining myself enough to find the best frame in a burst that was taken at 30 fps. I don't like post processing in the first place, nevermind adding more tedium and time.

My D850 does 9 fps and I would like something greater than that. Your suggestions are welcome. Surely there will be an adjustment to decrease the fps from 30. Right?



I'm sure there will be options to not have to use 30FPS (or whatever the highest FPS ends up being as 30FPS is just a rumor so far). But MILCs to date have been a lot more restrictive than DSLRs in what FPS you can set. Here are some examples we can draw on from the current MILCs:

R5/6: Stuck at 20FPS in ES. Could change FPS in MS from 12 to 8 to 3.
R3: 30, 15, 3 for ES. 12, 8, 3 for MS.
A9: 5, 10, 20 for ES. Max 10 in MS (and two lower options)
A1: 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 for ES. Max 10 for MS.
Nikon Z allows three or four (can't recall) fixed FPS settings.

All of this is a far cry from DLSRs where many higher end ones allowed us to choose any FPS within the supported range. Even lower end ones in Nikon.

My gut feeling is that the Z9 will follow the Z6/7 model and offer three or four? settings that may be fixed at certain values. But I don't think they will pull an R5/6 and force max FPS in ES.



Sep 21, 2021 at 10:57 AM
arbitrage
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p.13 #5 · New Z9 Specs (NR) Aug 10th, 2021


suteetat wrote:
This is fair enough. I think it is more of a bragging right than anything else. Regardless of IQ, I think if Z9 does only 20 FPS
which should be perfectly fine for majority of users, you are going to hear complains about A1 does 30 FPS or R3 does 30 FPS. Nikon is behind again, blah blah blah. Since Nikon really needs to make a statement with Z9, at least it has to offer feature set that competes with its competitor, I would think. However, personally, I would be perfectly happy with 20 FPS with
lossless compressed RAW file with full
...Show more

FWIW here is the Canon R3 list of supported 30FPS lenses. All RF lenses are supported. The list is for adapted EF:
https://faq.canon.jp/app/answers/detail/a_id/102781?_x_tr_sl=ja



Sep 21, 2021 at 10:59 AM
gannis
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p.13 #6 · New Z9 Specs (NR) Aug 10th, 2021


It is quite surprising to see the cameras with stacked sensors have such limitations..with non stacked sensors I always thought that limitation had to do with how they implement the slide shows...maybe slower FPS (in Continuous H+ modes) could make the EVF stutter even worse...
arbitrage wrote:
I'm sure there will be options to not have to use 30FPS (or whatever the highest FPS ends up being as 30FPS is just a rumor so far). But MILCs to date have been a lot more restrictive than DSLRs in what FPS you can set. Here are some examples we can draw on from the current MILCs:

R5/6: Stuck at 20FPS in ES. Could change FPS in MS from 12 to 8 to 3.
R3: 30, 15, 3 for ES. 12, 8, 3 for MS.
A9: 5, 10, 20 for ES. Max 10 in MS (and two lower options)
A1: 5, 10, 15,
...Show more



Sep 21, 2021 at 01:22 PM
bs kite
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p.13 #7 · New Z9 Specs (NR) Aug 10th, 2021


ilkka_nissila wrote:

From the point of view of nature and ecology, it would be best if the purchase price of a new product included the cost of recycling of the materials and re-naturalization of the mines, capture of all the pollution from water, soil and atmosphere and reversing the impact of the manufacture of the product once it is no longer in use. That would discourage unnecessary purchases and make it possible to experience a healthy and safe living environment for future generations.


I write: You are right. And you are not the first one to think of this.

I am a wildlife biologist and ecologist of 47 years, specializing in habitat management (including the art of applying fire as a silvicultural tool.) and of course endangered species.

During my education, I'd developed an idilic sense of what the environment should be and probably would eventually be. I developed a belief that eventually man would "see the light" and include the cost of recycling in the original purchase price of any item.

I was certain that this would happen over time. It did not. It took me a long time to see the reason it did not. It did not because economics (*including and especially* greed!) always has taken precedence over our environment. However, I am not willing to say that it always will. Things are changing for the better. I believe we will save Planet Earth and I believe the world's top scientists have the expertise to reverse global warming )ok,,,,climate change for you hardcore right-wingers .

Very slowly, change is coming for the good. It will take a lot of failures but we will overcome it.

>. Recycling: After all, at least we are recycling right? Actually *we are not recycling*. At least 90% of plastics get buried, not recycled. It has all been fabricated by Big Oil lies. See the NPR and NatGeo links below and then tell me you still believe we are recycling.

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/897692090/how-big-oil-misled-the-public-into-believing-plastic-would-be-recycled

https://www.nationalgeographic.org/article/whopping-91-percent-plastic-isnt-recycled/

Something like 9+ billion tons of plastics have already been buried. I hope the same corporations will eventually be made to dig up all this plastic and incinerate it (I guess .

The responsibility of plastics has always belonged to the corporations. It should have been their cost from the beginning. They have shrewdly appealed to our sense of responsibility to the environment, convincing us that we can make a big difference by are recycling, while the whole time....... it is their responsibility. On top of that, they have been lying about recycling. It's all being buried.

Robert

Edited on Sep 21, 2021 at 03:52 PM · View previous versions


Sep 21, 2021 at 02:39 PM
jwolfe
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p.13 #8 · New Z9 Specs (NR) Aug 10th, 2021


Exactly as I predicted. All the current generation of long glass is capable of 30 fps. So I don’t see any reason to worry about Canon or Nikon. As long as you have current glass you’ll be fine.

arbitrage wrote:
FWIW here is the Canon R3 list of supported 30FPS lenses. All RF lenses are supported. The list is for adapted EF:
https://faq.canon.jp/app/answers/detail/a_id/102781?_x_tr_sl=ja




Sep 21, 2021 at 02:44 PM
cvrle59
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p.13 #9 · New Z9 Specs (NR) Aug 10th, 2021




I write: You are right. And you are not the first one to think of this.

I am a wildlife biologist and ecologist of 47 years, specializing in habitat management (including the art of applying fire as a silvicultural tool.) and of course endangered species.

During my education, I'd developed an idilic sense of what the environment should be and probably would eventually be. I developed a belief that eventually man would "see the light" and include the cost of recycling in the original purchase price of any item.

I was certain that this would happen over time. It did not.
...Show more

As much as I agree on ilkka_nissila quote, I have problem to believe that we turned the corner yet.
There is too much BS, and politics, certain people just got richer talking about it, but they do almost nothing.
I don't want to hijack this thread, but can of worms is open.
My hair straightens up any time I hear electric cars = green energy, like electricity is coming from nowhere, the car is just like a phone, plug it in, a few watts are nothing.
Wouldn't it be more reasonable to attack to consolidate traffic, especially in NA.
Has anyone come to any conclusion, how many nuc's we need to build to produce additional energy, if we remove all the gasoline cars and trucks from the roads, then we replace them with electric cars and trucks.
It would be interesting to see drawing of all those nuc's around Great lakes, and everywhere else, to get enough electricity.
Back to photography, the culture is worst than ever, you don't need to go too far, just look at the YT videos, half of them are about competition, who just crashed who.
There is tremendous pressure to MFG's to bring new product, the cycle of replacement is shorter and shorter every next year.
The cars are similar, every 2 years new model.
We can go on and on, but I'm very discouraged, we're going to right direction, I hope, I'm completely wrong.







Sep 21, 2021 at 03:12 PM
hatch1921
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p.13 #10 · New Z9 Specs (NR) Aug 10th, 2021


Z9 Back

The layout looks great button/joystick placement wise... IMO.

z9 by hatch1921, on Flickr

Removed the previous text... just trying to get the thread back on topic

Hatch




Edited on Sep 21, 2021 at 04:09 PM · View previous versions



Sep 21, 2021 at 04:03 PM
George DeCamp
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p.13 #11 · New Z9 Specs (NR) Aug 10th, 2021


Hatch that was posted on NR on August 10th.


Sep 21, 2021 at 04:07 PM
hatch1921
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p.13 #12 · New Z9 Specs (NR) Aug 10th, 2021


George DeCamp wrote:
Hatch that was posted on NR on August 10th.


Changed it up... just trying to get the topic back on track is all
Hatch



Sep 21, 2021 at 04:10 PM
George DeCamp
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p.13 #13 · New Z9 Specs (NR) Aug 10th, 2021


Ahhh ok my bad!!


Sep 21, 2021 at 04:15 PM
bs kite
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p.13 #14 · New Z9 Specs (NR) Aug 10th, 2021


Thank you for posting that interview with the Nikon exec.

1. Please read the *entire* sentence of my statement. The last two words are "for now". The phrase "for now" means the same as "For the time being" (the Nikon exec's words)

I did not write "from now on". You did. In fact, I chose the phrase "for now" in hopes that it would avoid controversy.

To be honest, I had not seen that interview before you posted it here.

2. In your description of the transition from film to digital, you missed one little detail. What caused the film-developing businesses to fold? They folded because photographers went to digital, which eliminated the cost of film development.

I was there through the entire transition. I know exactly what happened. At the time, I was with Gamma Liaison International (subsidiary of Getty Images through all of that transition). If you had a contract with a stock agency and you shot regularly, you made a very good second income. For some, it was their entire yearly income. It was crazy good $ !

But most people could/would not do it. It is because of the cost of film/developing. Kodachrome and Velvia cost me at least 50 cents every time I pressed the shutter. I bought blocks of film the cheapest way: from camera houses in NY. My friend bought/developed her film at Maine Color (Portland, Maine) and they went out of business following the arrival of digital.

The cull/delete rate was just as high with film (slides), as the delete rate is with digital today. So. when I opened a box of newly arrived transparencies and culled them, upwards of 90% were tossed into the waste basket.

And the agency kept 50% of the sale from "One Time North American Rights". But the sales were so high, that when I started receiving royalty checks, I did not mind paying the 50% fee . I could not have found any of those markets myself. They had subagents selling images in France, Spain, Portugal and on and on.

Example: The Japanese paid $1900 for the one-time use of my image of a dew-drenched spider web I took in the Everglades. I was elated to receive a royalty check for $952! I do admit this was an extreme example. Most sales were in the low hundreds.

This would all change with digital and there was one fact that would change it:

*When digital appeared, everyone became a photographer* because digital images were free to shoot. It did not cost a penny to shoot all day. And that is what caused the film development businesses to fold. That is the little detail that you missed.

Stock photorgraphy was a blast back then. And it was not long after digital entered photography, that Gamma LI folded and sent all my slides back. And that was the end of that.

Question: Would there be all the whining (myself included) about 20 fps or 30 fps or whatever....... if we had to pay 50 cents to develop each of those frames?

Digital is far superior to film.

The transition from film to digital revolutionized photography. Revolutionize defined: change (something) radically or fundamentally.

3. I am with you when you express your frustration with the natrue of this thread. One does not need the latest equipment to shoot the best images. I am with the DSLR people too. Heck, I am one of them. That is the reason I started a thread or two for just DSLR images.

And the last thing: For all you Nikon whiners (): Take it easy, Nikon will knock the Z9 out of the park!

And I believe Nikon will release a D850 upgrade (that’s just me). If and when they do, I'll probably buy it . According to that interview you posted, Nikon is still not decided on *all* the details of their direction.

We know that the Z9 and mirrorless is top priority.

ilkka_nissila wrote:
Where have they said that?

In Feb 2020 they answered in a dpr interview "[DPR:] Do you have a sense of the timeframe over which you’ll transition customers away from DSLR, eventually?

[Nikon:] We haven’t finalized our plan yet. At this time I can say that we will prioritize both DSLR and mirrorless. We also want to complete our Z system: that’s the first priority. At a certain point, we hope that all DSLR customers will [ultimately] be satisfied by the features provided by mirrorless, and will shift to the Z system. That’s the goal. But until then, we will continue to
...Show more



Edited on Sep 23, 2021 at 11:09 PM · View previous versions



Sep 21, 2021 at 10:23 PM
sjms
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p.13 #15 · New Z9 Specs (NR) Aug 10th, 2021


Well written.


Sep 22, 2021 at 09:04 AM
groob
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p.13 #16 · New Z9 Specs (NR) Aug 10th, 2021


Wow, I’m surprised about that. Sony discussed the motors in its superteles in an interview, and numerous Sony shooters glommed onto that point as definitive evidence that everyone must immediately spend $12k on the newest lens or you’re not getting the benefit of mirrorless. To me, this is evidence that, even if the newest mirrorless superteles have advanced motors that can keep up better at 30 fps, the gap between those and their DSLR counterparts is going to be small. So, as in nearly every comment I make, I’ll note that we’re almost certainly back to people’s tolerance for paying for diminishing returns in improved performance.

jwolfe wrote:
Exactly as I predicted. All the current generation of long glass is capable of 30 fps. So I don’t see any reason to worry about Canon or Nikon. As long as you have current glass you’ll be fine.





Sep 22, 2021 at 10:46 AM
MRomine
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p.13 #17 · New Z9 Specs (NR) Aug 10th, 2021


bs kite wrote:
I was there through the entire transition. I know exactly what happened. At the time, I was with Gamma Liaison International (subsidiary of Getty Images through all of that transition). If you had a contract with a stock agency and you shot regularly, you made a very good second income. For some, it was their entire yearly income. It was crazy good $ !

And it was not long after digital entered photography, that Gamma LI folded and sent all my slides back. And that was the end of that.


Wow, there is a name that I have not heard in 20+ years, Gamma Liaison. If I remember correctly, Gamma was bought by Tony Stone who was later bought by Getty. Those were the days of making good money in Stock.



Sep 22, 2021 at 11:10 AM
bs kite
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p.13 #18 · New Z9 Specs (NR) Aug 10th, 2021


sjms wrote:
Well written.


Thank you Steve.




Sep 22, 2021 at 03:18 PM
sjms
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p.13 #19 · New Z9 Specs (NR) Aug 10th, 2021


bs kite wrote:
Thank you Steve.



I give credit where it’s due.



Sep 22, 2021 at 03:30 PM
chambeshi
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p.13 #20 · New Z9 Specs (NR) Aug 10th, 2021


"I've heard that Nikon has been trying to push it forward into October. I'm now getting reports from dealers who are scheduling preview sessions with Nikon product managers in the next two weeks."

https://www.zsystemuser.com/nikon-z-system-news-and/fasten-your-seatbelts-turbu.html



Oct 01, 2021 at 01:37 AM
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