Steve Spencer wrote:
I think you are right about the effort not being all that much required, but I don't think it is the effort that is holding Nikon back. At this point in time it is the perception of the company that they want to project that I think is holding them back from making this camera. They already have the problem of being perceived as being behind the competition in mirrorless. if they make a new DSLR the better that camera is the worse their perception of being behind in mirrorless will be. They don't want to be branded as a behind the times DSLR company at this point. In a couple of years if they establish themselves in mirrorless then they might be able to build this camera, but I am sure they will check if the market is still there for it. If it is they may build it, but I don't think from a strategic reputation of the company point of view they can make such a camera until they are firmly established as being a strong player in the new mirrorless market....Show more →
They may just opt for a quiet release. It's a known concept and happens from time to time in industry. After the Z9, a D850 successor will probably not send the message that Nikon is not focusing on mirrorless. It might send the message that Nikon enables a smooth transition from DSLR to mirrorless.
I like Z camera IQ. 30 fps to be honest isn't even that high on the priority list for me. Give me rugged build quality quick, responsive AF, an electronic shutter that doesn't have banding indoors and the IQ that I like and I'm happy. suteetat wrote:
I don't expect any real review anytime soon. There are plenty of testing done but as far as I know with preproduction firmware and Nikon is still getting it ready. However, next month, we should hear some official words about it.
I would assume that in comparison to A1, there will be something that Nikon does better and something that A1 does better.
Also most likely that you may not get the full capability with F mount lens.
It is unclear at the moment but I am not sure that F mount lens, even the E version can keep up with 30 FPS.
You might be stuck at 20 FPS but Z mount lens, especially the upcoming supertele should be able to take the full advantage.
Also it will be Tower sensor and not Sony so sensor performance will certainly be different from A1. Let see if Nikon or Tower has some trick up its sleeve.
Videographer may be very happy, I heard Nikon really went all out with Z9. ...Show more →
I’m curious about something some are posting. I’m not much of a tech guy so not sure of why some say that older lenses like 500pf would not get 30fps on the Z9. What is the reason they will be slower? Not a big deal for me I’ll use it anyway but what is the reason some are saying this?
Nobody thinks the aperture on those lenses are designed to open or close that fast. George DeCamp wrote:
I’m curious about something some are posting. I’m not much of a tech guy so not sure of why some say that older lenses like 500pf would not get 30fps on the Z9. What is the reason they will be slower? Not a big deal for me I’ll use it anyway but what is the reason some are saying this?
I’m assuming they are referring to the aperture mechanism or the focus motors. My understanding is on mirrorless cameras the aperture stays closed down all the time based on the setting so I don’t see that being an issue.
I’m personally not worried about it. Canon so far hasn’t put limitations on the R3 with EF lenses.
George DeCamp wrote:
I’m curious about something some are posting. I’m not much of a tech guy so not sure of why some say that older lenses like 500pf would not get 30fps on the Z9. What is the reason they will be slower? Not a big deal for me I’ll use it anyway but what is the reason some are saying this?
George DeCamp wrote:
I’m curious about something some are posting. I’m not much of a tech guy so not sure of why some say that older lenses like 500pf would not get 30fps on the Z9. What is the reason they will be slower? Not a big deal for me I’ll use it anyway but what is the reason some are saying this?
Thanks!!
One reason is that cameras and lenses do autofocus with a wide open iris, or with an aperture that may be larger than the aperture at which shots are being taken. (For Nikon Z, the iris apparently opens up to f/5.6 if you have chosen an aperture smaller than f/5.6.) Thus, if you are shooting stopped down, the iris blades need to move quickly enough to allow for a suffient time slot in which autofocus adjustments can take place.
AcuteShadows wrote:
One reason is that cameras and lenses do autofocus with a wide open iris. Thus, if you are shooting stopped down, the iris blades need to move quickly enough to allow for a suffient time slot in which autofocus adjustments can take place.
Nikon ML cameras meter and AF with the chosen aperture up to f5.6. After f5.6, like f8, f11 etc, the camera still meters and AFs at f5.6 but will stop down when the shutter is pressed. So, the stopping down only occurs at smaller apertures than f5.6 - f8, f11 and so on.
JadedWriter wrote:
I like Z camera IQ. 30 fps to be honest isn't even that high on the priority list for me. Give me rugged build quality quick, responsive AF, an electronic shutter that doesn't have banding indoors and the IQ that I like and I'm happy.
This is fair enough. I think it is more of a bragging right than anything else. Regardless of IQ, I think if Z9 does only 20 FPS
which should be perfectly fine for majority of users, you are going to hear complains about A1 does 30 FPS or R3 does 30 FPS. Nikon is behind again, blah blah blah. Since Nikon really needs to make a statement with Z9, at least it has to offer feature set that competes with its competitor, I would think. However, personally, I would be perfectly happy with 20 FPS with
lossless compressed RAW file with full IQ.
I think Dpreview did mention that A1 does 30 FPS with lossy compressed RAW. In the past, I always used non compressed RAW with Sony because of risk of artifact. It does not happens often but when it does, there is really no easy way to correct that. I have no idea if this has been improved much and if there is any issue with A1 shooting at 30 FPS regarding IQ in comparison to shooting a single shot.
The good news is that Nikon is planning to position Z9 as an all around camera. I believe its base iso wil be 64 so landscape photographer could be happy and hope they will keep noise level under control enough that wildlife and bird photographers who more often shoot higher iso will be happy as well. It most likely will not be liked a D5/D6 that is optimized more for high iso shooting. I am curious to see how this new sensor will work out in comparison to A1 sensor.
Also only Nikon Rumor is the source that claims 30 FPS so far but did not say lossless compressed raw, jpg, s-raw or what exactly and they are not always right. However, I assume that Z9 will support at least 8K/30P so that would means 30 FPS in some kind of formats, I would think.
---------------------------------------------
George DeCamp wrote:
I’m curious about something some are posting. I’m not much of a tech guy so not sure of why some say that older lenses like 500pf would not get 30fps on the Z9. What is the reason they will be slower? Not a big deal for me I’ll use it anyway but what is the reason some are saying this?
Thanks!!
If you are looking at Sony A1 list of lenses that can do 30 FPS, not every Sony lenses will support that.
At the very least, diaphragm has to open and close quick enough. Motor has to be fast enough to response to AF-C at 30 fps.
I don't see a list of Canon lens that will support 30 FPS with R3 yet. At the moment, I don't know enough to look at the spec of the lens such as motor type, diaphragm etc to know which one may or may not be compatible. However, rumor from the field is that not all F mount lenses will support 30 FPS but I don't know which one will for sure. I would be shocked if 200-500/5.6 will do 30 FPS for example. The e FL supertele was introduced 7 years ago. None of the Sony lenses that support 30 FPS was out at that time. I have no idea if Nikon even had 30 FPS in mind at that time. It would be rather funny if 500PF supports 30 FPS but not the big FL lenses
Of course now with the rumor of new FTZ adapter with better support for supertele lens, may be some lenses will support 30 FPS but at the moment I would not assume that it is a given. I am not even sure if my 200/2 VR ii will even do 20 FPS considering that the lens was released 11 yaers ago
I will wait until spring and rent a Z9 and adapter from Lens Rentals and do my own tests on my collection of F Mount lenses.
One thing is for sure...if I would have listened to internet reviews...I never, ever would have purchased a D6.
I did a one day rental and found out the D6 performed far above my expectations for night time sports under the lights with regards to autofocus and noise.
I know what works for me and have a hard time trusting a several thousand dollar gear investment on a biased review.
Personally I'm getting tired of YouTuber complaints and what it takes to appease them. If the camera works and gets the job done that's becoming more than enough for me. suteetat wrote:
This is fair enough. I think it is more of a bragging right than anything else. Regardless of IQ, I think if Z9 does only 20 FPS
which should be perfectly fine for majority of users, you are going to hear complains about A1 does 30 FPS or R3 does 30 FPS. Nikon is behind again, blah blah blah. Since Nikon really needs to make a statement with Z9, at least it has to offer feature set that competes with its competitor, I would think. However, personally, I would be perfectly happy with 20 FPS with
lossless compressed RAW file with full IQ.
I think Dpreview did mention that A1 does 30 FPS with lossy compressed RAW. In the past, I always used non compressed RAW with Sony because of risk of artifact. It does not happens often but when it does, there is really no easy way to correct that. I have no idea if this has been improved much and if there is any issue with A1 shooting at 30 FPS regarding IQ in comparison to shooting a single shot.
The good news is that Nikon is planning to position Z9 as an all around camera. I believe its base iso wil be 64 so landscape photographer could be happy and hope they will keep noise level under control enough that wildlife and bird photographers who more often shoot higher iso will be happy as well. It most likely will not be liked a D5/D6 that is optimized more for high iso shooting. I am curious to see how this new sensor will work out in comparison to A1 sensor.
Also only Nikon Rumor is the source that claims 30 FPS so far but did not say lossless compressed raw, jpg, s-raw or what exactly and they are not always right. However, I assume that Z9 will support at least 8K/30P so that would means 30 FPS in some kind of formats, I would think.
---------------------------------------------
If you are looking at Sony A1 list of lenses that can do 30 FPS, not every Sony lenses will support that.
At the very least, diaphragm has to open and close quick enough. Motor has to be fast enough to response to AF-C at 30 fps.
I don't see a list of Canon lens that will support 30 FPS with R3 yet. At the moment, I don't know enough to look at the spec of the lens such as motor type, diaphragm etc to know which one may or may not be compatible. However, rumor from the field is that not all F mount lenses will support 30 FPS but I don't know which one will for sure. I would be shocked if 200-500/5.6 will do 30 FPS for example. The e FL supertele was introduced 7 years ago. None of the Sony lenses that support 30 FPS was out at that time. I have no idea if Nikon even had 30 FPS in mind at that time. It would be rather funny if 500PF supports 30 FPS but not the big FL lenses
Of course now with the rumor of new FTZ adapter with better support for supertele lens, may be some lenses will support 30 FPS but at the moment I would not assume that it is a given. I am not even sure if my 200/2 VR ii will even do 20 FPS considering that the lens was released 11 yaers ago
leewoolery wrote:
I will wait until spring and rent a Z9 and adapter from Lens Rentals and do my own tests on my collection of F Mount lenses.
One thing is for sure...if I would have listened to internet reviews...I never, ever would have purchased a D6.
I did a one day rental and found out the D6 performed far above my expectations for night time sports under the lights with regards to autofocus and noise.
I know what works for me and have a hard time trusting a several thousand dollar gear investment on a biased review.
---------------------------------------------
JadedWriter wrote:
Personally I'm getting tired of YouTuber complaints and what it takes to appease them. If the camera works and gets the job done that's becoming more than enough for me.
I enjoy my D6 very much. My only complain is that I need to use it wiht 600/4 which is a bit too heavy for me to handhold for extended period of time unlike my D850 with 500/4e FL and sometimes I sitll need to crop too much with smaller birds.
If D6 has AF coverage over most the frame like mirrorless camera, that would also be very nice.
I have to admit though when A9 was released and Sony showed that mirrorless AF can match or exceed DSLR while offering many new features lackingin DSLR, suddenly people tend to think mirrorless AF is better than DSLR even though in reality
only one mirrorless can compete with highend DSLR at that time.
While there is going to be very rare instant where 30 FPS could be handy, I can do without it just fine. I think Nikon needs it to make a statement more than anything else (whining from youtuber is irrelevant to me)
I can’t see disciplining myself enough to find the best frame in a burst that was taken at 30 fps. I don't like post processing in the first place, nevermind adding more tedium and time.
My D850 does 9 fps and I would like something greater than that. Your suggestions are welcome. Surely there will be an adjustment to decrease the fps from 30. Right?
bs kite wrote:
I can’t see disciplining myself enough to find the best frame in a burst that was taken at 30 fps. I don't like post processing in the first place, nevermind adding more tedium and time.
My D850 does 9 fps and I would like something greater than that. Your suggestions are welcome. Surely there will be an adjustment to decrease the fps from 30. Right?
D6 with 14 fps is already fast enough for me for most situations. For my use, kingfisher making a dive to catch a fish and sunbird hovering and feeding on nectar and bee-eater catching insects in flight or taking a quick dip in water are probably the few scenarios I would want more than 14 fps. Oh forgot, it should be kingfisher mating season soon here, I need as many fps as possible but the problem is I could never panmy camera fast enough
«I heard….» is of absolutely NO value. No value at all!
We all can claim something and refer to «I heard…».
suteetat wrote:
I don't expect any real review anytime soon. There are plenty of testing done but as far as I know with preproduction firmware and Nikon is still getting it ready. However, next month, we should hear some official words about it.
I would assume that in comparison to A1, there will be something that Nikon does better and something that A1 does better.
Also most likely that you may not get the full capability with F mount lens.
It is unclear at the moment but I am not sure that F mount lens, even the E version can keep up with 30 FPS.
You might be stuck at 20 FPS but Z mount lens, especially the upcoming supertele should be able to take the full advantage.
Also it will be Tower sensor and not Sony so sensor performance will certainly be different from A1. Let see if Nikon or Tower has some trick up its sleeve.
Videographer may be very happy, I heard Nikon really went all out with Z9. ...Show more →
ACEG wrote:
«I heard….» is of absolutely NO value. No value at all!
We all can claim something and refer to «I heard…».
Up to you. Not everyone rely on Nikon Rumor or internet. There are things that cannot be said publically. Also rumor from various sites are not always correct. Since this thread is just pure speculation and rumor from various sources and nothing concrete or official, if it is meaningless, why did you bother to read it. In this past 10 pages, exactly how much is actual fact released by Nikon? Has there been any real solid information that is more than "I heard" in this thread so far ?
ACEG wrote:
«I heard….» is of absolutely NO value. No value at all!
We all can claim something and refer to «I heard…».
I suggest you reconsider that. I beleive that there have been some things revealed in this thread that are accurate and reflect the current state of the Z9 development.
I will speculate that the sensor in the Z9 will be an architecture that is orientated towards max high dynamic range and low noise. Nikon will not compete by setting new speed or AF or resolution or video benchmarks. Nikon's claim to fame will be class leading IQ. It will be an excellent all around camera.
I will also speculate that unless the new FTZ adapter offers increased performance over the current adapter, F mount lenses will perform at least equal to what they do on current DSLRs, but well behind native Z glass. That will not be a bad thing in practice, all but a few will be very happy with that performance. Yes, YouTubers w make an issue about this, but who cares about that.
30 fps is something I would use extremely rarely. Heck I rarely use 20fps on my A9, but it is welcome for specific situations. I hope the Z9 has the ability to freely adjust the fps in Hi, Med and Lo like on Canon 1D series. R5 and R6 are locked at 20fps in ES which is a ridiculous situation.
