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New Leica M10-R Black Paint

  
 
helimat
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · New Leica M10-R Black Paint


retrofocus wrote:
Is it really like this? I am a Leica user but I don't feel insulted by it at all. I also don't think the statement is arrogant or stupid. I think the poster tackled simply a controversial issue regarding prices for which Leica is known. The wording/phrasing and some conclusions are not the best, agreed - but we should be open to criticism and not just expect applause. Some responded well to his original question - so far I don't have the impression he is a troll. I wonder more about some reactions here - do we take criticism regarding
...Show more

Calling all Leica owners 'vain' and then vaporizing does seem a little like troll behavior to me.



Jun 23, 2021 at 11:48 AM
retrofocus
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · New Leica M10-R Black Paint


helimat wrote:
Calling all Leica owners 'vain' and then vaporizing does seem a little like troll behavior to me.


I don't want to pick a side here, but the statement was interpreted as being "vain" but the poster didn't say this. Vaporizing, yes - but too early to tell.



Jun 23, 2021 at 11:54 AM
helimat
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · New Leica M10-R Black Paint


retrofocus wrote:
I don't want to pick a side here, but the statement was interpreted as being "vain" but the poster didn't say this. Vaporizing, yes - but too early to tell.


Quote -"Anything else you tell yourself is a disgusting attempt to rationalize your own vanity."



Jun 23, 2021 at 11:56 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · New Leica M10-R Black Paint


Everythingis1 wrote:
This is absolutely delusional. People shoot with Leica's as an fashion accessory period end of story. Anything else you tell yourself is a disgusting attempt to rationalize your own vanity. By buying a massively overpriced Leica from a hedge fund, instead of a camera from a company that is actually supporting photography, you are actively hurting the camera industry.

It's like someone buying a Rolex using the excuse that it tells time better, it's complete BS. (Unlike a Rolex though these Leica's will be worthless in the future)


What I get from your comment is that you likely never shot with a rangefinder camera or does not enjoy shooting with one. I disagree that it's about vanity. For me, it's a pleasurable experience.

I started shooting with a digital Leica rangefinder (M240) a couple years ago and it changed the way I take pictures. It's a great way to take control of my photography without relying in technology to aid the process. (I do own a Sony A7R IV as well and find it indispensable for certain applications)

Leica M bodies can be expensive but one can feel the construction quality, tight tolerance and workmanship. This does not came cheap and I do value these things as well. The cosmetic changes (color, paint style, engraving) are indeed more about fashion and it's something I don't put much value on.



Jun 23, 2021 at 12:04 PM
EltonTeng
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · New Leica M10-R Black Paint


retrofocus wrote:
I don't want to pick a side here, but the statement was interpreted as being "vain" but the poster didn't say this. Vaporizing, yes - but too early to tell.


I think that poster was pretty clear with the personal nature of his opinion. I think the only comments on the gear itself relates to the pricing and ownership of the brand.



Jun 23, 2021 at 12:07 PM
derKoekje
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · New Leica M10-R Black Paint


umgrizz wrote:
I havenít followed Leica so I know nothing about the cameras. And Iím sure those who work with these cameras regularly will find this a stupid question. I do find it curious that in the two pages of this thread, no one has mentioned picture quality or unique features (other than the paint job). So, can someone explain to me why this camera is worth $10K? No, really!

Curt


I doubt it's anything special, literally just the paint, engraving and styling. 'Worth' is relative. Products are sold at the price that people are willing to pay for them or they wouldn't be sold. Limited edition Leicas always tend to sell out, so do with that information what you will. It's a luxury item for sure, but they're helped by the fact that no one makes rangefinders quite like them.



Jun 23, 2021 at 12:27 PM
Arvaker
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · New Leica M10-R Black Paint


Ah, I can see why people think an M camera is silly. Expensive, no autofocus, so many limitations...

What got me started with the M system was a loaner camera when my DSLR got its shutter stuck. When the DSLR was repaired, and I had to hand in the loaner M9, I was hooked - but not because of the rangefinder (but I do enjoy it - well, except when I don't hate it), but because the camera and lenses were so small, with so much character (oh, all these old lenses, still so good), so well made. So I bought the M9. But yeah, it was very compromised, and I can understand why a DSLR shooter would think rather incapable, especially at that price! But now, with more modern sensors, electronics etc, it is a great system. Expensive if you buy it brand new, yes. But you know, one can buy used items. Or just use your iPhone, or iPad or whatever you prefer. Enjoy not having something you dislike



Jun 23, 2021 at 12:35 PM
jeffersoncasey
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · New Leica M10-R Black Paint


Fred Miranda wrote:
Leica M bodies can be expensive but one can feel the construction quality, tight tolerance and workmanship. This does not came cheap and I do value these things as well. The cosmetic changes (color, paint style, engraving) are indeed more about fashion and it's something I don't put much value on.


Rangefinder mechanism inherently needed a lot of precisions, and coming from a factory/workshop that need to feed technicians in Germany, also manufacturing less quantity compared to the Japanese peers, it is bound to be expensive in the first place. Also I do think Leica chosen form over functions which naturally make them aesthetically more pleasing, but I don't believe they are particularly superior in constructions quality over peers. In fact, I've read more horror stories shared at LUF compared to mostly firmware glitches of the techie offerings in Japan.

Shooting with RF is a weird sensation, while personally I don't entirely buy the philosophy of shooting RF apart from a few advantages they offered, I do shoot very differently by choosing subjects I don't normally do with mirrorless. It's because of the exact opposite of the reason why people love mirrorless - what you see is NOT what you get, and that, is a heck loads of fun! Ultimately, Leica lenses is the sole reason why I shoot Leica M, because the lenses worked best on them. However I'm struggling lately to deal with the performances, I'm testing out mirrorless adapting options. Once I've found a compromise I can accept, I won't hesitate to jump ship.



Jun 23, 2021 at 01:27 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · New Leica M10-R Black Paint


apatel wrote:
Fred - yes we should!! I have been on since 2003 when I was only a Canon user - but with time I matured (as did bank account allowing me to venture into Leica land. Its 20th year of your forum - I say its time for a Leica forum.


Perhaps the easiest way would be to change the board's name:

From: Alternative Gear & Lenses
To: Leica & Alternative Gear

Most of the threads on the Alternative board are Leica / M-mount released anyways. What do you guys think?



Jun 23, 2021 at 03:06 PM
Everythingis1
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · New Leica M10-R Black Paint


retrofocus wrote:
Is it really like this? I am a Leica user but I don't feel insulted by it at all. I also don't think the statement is arrogant or stupid. I think the poster tackled simply a controversial issue regarding prices for which Leica is known. The wording/phrasing and some conclusions are not the best, agreed - but we should be open to criticism and not just expect applause. Some responded well to his original question - so far I don't have the impression he is a troll. I wonder more about some reactions here - do we take criticism regarding
...Show more

It's because people are so emotionally invested in a brand that they take it so personally. They dig deep into the realm of abstractions in attempts to explain away what is a purely emotional foundation for their rationalization of ownership. I have no issues with Leica or its prices, but what I do take issue with is people using magical thinking to justify something instead of just being honest with themselves.

Nobody is convincing anyone that the tactile experience of using the camera is worth 10's of thousands of dollars and it isn't just your emotional attachment to the brand. That would be some weird grotesque fetish.



Jun 23, 2021 at 03:16 PM
 


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Desmolicious
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · New Leica M10-R Black Paint


Fred Miranda wrote:
.. If Leica made a camera entirely black with no engravings or words, it would be my choice. ;-)


They do. I have one. It is all sorts of awesome.

Ladies and Germs, may I present to you, the one, the only, the LEICA M-A
(insert sound effect where crowd goes wild)






There is even one on the B&S board!

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1705467/0?keyword=leica#15624719



Jun 23, 2021 at 03:46 PM
naturephoto1
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · New Leica M10-R Black Paint


retrofocus wrote:
Is it really like this? I am a Leica user but I don't feel insulted by it at all. I also don't think the statement is arrogant or stupid. I think the poster tackled simply a controversial issue regarding prices for which Leica is known. The wording/phrasing and some conclusions are not the best, agreed - but we should be open to criticism and not just expect applause. Some responded well to his original question - so far I don't have the impression he is a troll. I wonder more about some reactions here - do we take criticism regarding
...Show more

I have never been a Leica M mount camera user, have used and owned Mamiya 7II camera and lenses and was a long time Leica R camera and lens user. I am now shooting a lot of M-mount lenses and selling many of my Leica R glass but using many of them on Sony bodies.

What I was most reacting to in those comments were these:

Everythingis1 wrote:
This is absolutely delusional. People shoot with Leica's as an fashion accessory period end of story. Anything else you tell yourself is a disgusting attempt to rationalize your own vanity. By buying a massively overpriced Leica from a hedge fund, instead of a camera from a company that is actually supporting photography, you are actively hurting the camera industry.


And yes, I find these comments are offensive, not for me, but for the company with over 100 years in Photography and my fellow photographers that shoot and enjoy their Leica M and other cameras and lenses.

Rich





Edited on Jun 23, 2021 at 04:14 PM · View previous versions



Jun 23, 2021 at 03:47 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · New Leica M10-R Black Paint


Fred Miranda wrote:
Perhaps the easiest way would be to change the board's name:

From: Alternative Gear & Lenses
To: Leica & Alternative Gear

Most of the threads on the Alternative board are Leica / M-mount released anyways. What do you guys think?


Makes sense to me. I can't imagine having to parse the Leica from non-Leica posts here into separate forums and how much time that would take.



Jun 23, 2021 at 03:54 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · New Leica M10-R Black Paint


Everythingis1 wrote:
It's because people are so emotionally invested in a brand that they take it so personally. They dig deep into the realm of abstractions in attempts to explain away what is a purely emotional foundation for their rationalization of ownership. I have no issues with Leica or its prices, but what I do take issue with is people using magical thinking to justify something instead of just being honest with themselves.

Nobody is convincing anyone that the tactile experience of using the camera is worth 10's of thousands of dollars and it isn't just your emotional attachment to the brand.
...Show more

I not emotionally invested in the Leica brand. I have a Leica Camera, but I have a Sony camera, a Fuji camera, and a Nikon camera. I like my Leica camera because I like rangefinder focussing. That is not in any more of an abstraction than when I say I like my Sony camera for its fast AI based AF, or I like my Nikon camera for its rich color depth at base ISO, or I like my Fuji camera for its low noise at high ISO.

People take it personally when you say they (not the brand, the people) are delusional. When you say they (not the brand, the people) are vain. I could careless when you say Leica cameras or lenses are a fashion accessory. I know they aren't for me, but when you say people buy a camera only because they are vain. That is a statement about the people not the camera. It is a personal attack. Is it really surprising that when you make personal attacks people take it personally? People aren't taking it personally because of their emotional investment in the brand; they are taking it personally because what you said was about them personally and not about the brand.

Now the question is whether you will own up to attacking people by saying they are delusional and only buy the camera because they are vain or whether you will dodge responsibility for what you have said. So far you have only dodged responsibility.



Jun 23, 2021 at 04:00 PM
Desmolicious
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · New Leica M10-R Black Paint


Everythingis1 wrote:
It's because people are so emotionally invested in a brand that they take it so personally. They dig deep into the realm of abstractions in attempts to explain away what is a purely emotional foundation for their rationalization of ownership. I have no issues with Leica or its prices, but what I do take issue with is people using magical thinking to justify something instead of just being honest with themselves.

Nobody is convincing anyone that the tactile experience of using the camera is worth 10's of thousands of dollars and it isn't just your emotional attachment to the brand.
...Show more


Here's where your wrong.. I'm lucky to have a cr@p tonne of gear. Film and digital. Fuji, Nikon, Olympus, Leica, Hasselblad etc etc.

What Leica brings to the table - for my taste - is the unique combination of providing exactly the bare minimum of what I want for my photographic process. Maybe not yours, most probably you enjoy all the stuff that cameras like my Nikon Z7 offers. And that is cool.
But I have next to zero interest in anything that is basically a light tight box, with a lens. And if I'm feeling saucy, a meter.
Leica brings that, but what they also bring is an unmatched feel to that process. The cameras make you want to use them, they make you want to go out and look for reasons to use them.
Perhaps you get that from your cameras. And that's cool. But then if you do, am I going to accuse you of having some grotesque fetishism? No. Because that frankly is a weird statement, and reflects on the person making the statement.

Superb design, and choice in construction is what Leica brings to the table. No-one else offers anything in that realm, and frankly that is why Leica can set their prices as they do.
If that bugs you, don't be mad at Leica. They are a business after all designed to turn a profit.
Be mad at the lack of competition. If Nikon, Canon, Sony or whoever stepped up onto that playing field, perhaps things would change. But it still would be very difficult because Leica stayed with their vision since the first M camera was released in the 1950s. You pick up an M3 from 1955, and an M10 from today, and instantly you know how they work, and the familiarity of the construction and handling is right there.

There's nothing fetishistic about that. That is the company remaining true to its vision, and that vision being successful in the fact that it has been embraced over the decades by its customers.

We pick the best tools for what we want to do. And the best tool is the one you want to use the most.

p.s I bought my Z7 to scan film. I actually much preferred my D850 that I traded it in for, and wish I hadn't done that. I found the D850 much more enjoyable to use as it handled better, and was so much better using my old Nikon manual focus lenses.
I actually also liked using the D850 as a camera, not just to scan film!



Jun 23, 2021 at 04:03 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · New Leica M10-R Black Paint


jeffersoncasey wrote:
... Funnily, Fred beat LUF forum to start a thread! Also can't imagine how much premium we need to pay over the regular version...


Did he?



I dredged up a three year-old thread to post a link to the rumor:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/287719-m10-p-why-not-in-black-paint/?do=findComment&comment=4224681

Not much interest over there, ironically. Maybe I should have ranted and raved at what vanity it was

Premium is $1K versus the regular M10-R.

At least they did the black paint with the script this time instead of with the odd (IMO) "ASC" edition.

I love the look of a brassed camera when the black paint wears off, but after reading some of the comments that describe how the black paint can feel clammy and sticky, I'm not as interested.



Jun 23, 2021 at 04:04 PM
John Black
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · New Leica M10-R Black Paint


Desmolicious wrote:
They do. I have one. It is all sorts of awesome.

Ladies and Germs, may I present to you, the one, the only, the LEICA M-A
(insert sound effect where crowd goes wild)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51252700579_e12ff9cc30_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51252303344_f64279f53b_c.jpg

There is even one on the B&S board!

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1705467/0?keyword=leica#15624719



And the Leica M10 Monochrom is all black, void of any script, dots, etc. But it's a monochrome camera, and everybody is making one of those, so nothing unique there...



Jun 23, 2021 at 04:12 PM
retrofocus
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · New Leica M10-R Black Paint


Fred Miranda wrote:
Perhaps the easiest way would be to change the board's name:

From: Alternative Gear & Lenses
To: Leica & Alternative Gear

Most of the threads on the Alternative board are Leica / M-mount released anyways. What do you guys think?


+1. I second this. In the past I also supported a purely based Leica forum similar to other brands, but I agree that it would leave the Alt forum back in a poor shape where then not much will be going on there. Combining both and just "rebranding" them makes sense.



Jun 23, 2021 at 04:15 PM
Everythingis1
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · New Leica M10-R Black Paint


Steve Spencer wrote:
I not emotionally invested in the Leica brand. I have a Leica Camera, but I have a Sony camera, a Fuji camera, and a Nikon camera. I like my Leica camera because I like rangefinder focussing. That is not in any more of an abstraction than when I say I like my Sony camera for its fast AI based AF, or I like my Nikon camera for its rich color depth at base ISO, or I like my Fuji camera for its low noise at high ISO.

People take it personally when you say they (not the brand, the
...Show more

If you think the physical act of shooting a Leica is so unique and satisfying and irreplicable over all other cameras that it's worth many thousands of dollars in premium you are absolutely completely delusional.

The fact that you had to fabricate an entire post to try and "bait" me into calling something that is completely delusional what it is, as if that makes it proof that it is not, is some serious mental gymnastics. You're just like the other Leica users , you own it because of the brand name. You're not unique in why you own one, deal with it. Past delusional you're also a liar if you spout that the brand and aesthetic were not the pretext for you owning one in the first place, no matter what kind of "magical" reasons you end up coming up with after the fact.



Jun 23, 2021 at 04:20 PM
retrofocus
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · New Leica M10-R Black Paint


Everythingis1 wrote:
It's because people are so emotionally invested in a brand that they take it so personally. They dig deep into the realm of abstractions in attempts to explain away what is a purely emotional foundation for their rationalization of ownership. I have no issues with Leica or its prices, but what I do take issue with is people using magical thinking to justify something instead of just being honest with themselves.

Nobody is convincing anyone that the tactile experience of using the camera is worth 10's of thousands of dollars and it isn't just your emotional attachment to the brand.
...Show more

Well taken point. I agree that the Leica experience is not only a technical but more so emotional affection - I include myself here. It's just different when I take my Leica rangefinder camera with me to take photos. Are the photos "better" per se? Certainly no. Do they have a special look - I would now argue yes since this depends on the M (or LTM) lens. Many of those provide a look I can't get from my (D)SLR lenses. But it is subjective though. But Leica is just a tool for me as I use Sony, Canon, Mamiya, Hasselblad etc cameras in different situations. I am not a collector but realized that especially within the Leica brand many are. As you said, the emotional feel to have vested a lot into something leads instantly to very defensive reactions which I think is normal, too.



Jun 23, 2021 at 04:22 PM
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