Fred Miranda wrote:
From the samples I've seen, I actually prefer how it draws compared to the much bigger and $$ 28/1.4 Lux.
So far my feeling is the opposite. But I think I like the 28 Cron's character even more.
The VM feels nervous/swirly in the outer zone if there is anything higher contrast. Juha had an image in his Google Photos gallery that now seems to have been removed, that showed strong double line and how the astigmatism affects OOF text in backgrounds, with kind of an overlapping and offset sharp and soft image. My eyes find this to be very unsettling and distracting. The VM looks a lot better in lower contrast situations and where small specular OOF disks in the background have been avoided.
But for stopped down landscape type use, it would be tempting to carry the VM 28 with the VM 50 APO and 21 SEM. Now just need something new, sharp, compact and reasonably priced at ~90mm...
rscheffler wrote:
So far my feeling is the opposite. But I think I like the 28 Cron's character even more.
The VM feels nervous/swirly in the outer zone if there is anything higher contrast. Juha had an image in his Google Photos gallery that now seems to have been removed, that showed strong double line and how the astigmatism affects OOF text in backgrounds, with kind of an overlapping and offset sharp and soft image. My eyes find this to be very unsettling and distracting. The VM looks a lot better in lower contrast situations and where small specular OOF disks in the background have been avoided.
But for stopped down landscape type use, it would be tempting to carry the VM 28 with the VM 50 APO and 21 SEM. Now just need something new, sharp, compact and reasonably priced at ~90mm... ...Show more →
Neither lens is significantly under-corrected for SA so, there will be some structure in the transition zone. If you want smooth/creamy rendering with lower contrast/resolution, the best I've seen is the 7A 28/1.4.
rscheffler wrote:
So far my feeling is the opposite. But I think I like the 28 Cron's character even more.
The VM feels nervous/swirly in the outer zone if there is anything higher contrast. Juha had an image in his Google Photos gallery that now seems to have been removed, that showed strong double line and how the astigmatism affects OOF text in backgrounds, with kind of an overlapping and offset sharp and soft image. My eyes find this to be very unsettling and distracting. The VM looks a lot better in lower contrast situations and where small specular OOF disks in the background have been avoided.
But for stopped down landscape type use, it would be tempting to carry the VM 28 with the VM 50 APO and 21 SEM. Now just need something new, sharp, compact and reasonably priced at ~90mm... ...Show more →
I haven't knowingly removed any albums or images from Google Photos that I shared earlier in the other thread related to this lens. I have also taken some more since then.
These are all the shots I've taken with the lens so far that I have in Google Photos:
With all my Sigma fp shots I used Lens Compensation profiles created in-camera to eliminate color-shading that Sigma fp has some tendency to have with wide angle RF lenses. I created one profile for infinity at f5.6 and another for minimum focus distance at f2 (by shooting a compensation frames towards a bright sky through expodisc) and I switched the profile in camera based on the type of shots I was taking each time. This should mainly help to remove any color shading from edges/corners and it may also reduce vignetting to some extent.
My samples are pretty much all taken at f5.6 or wide open at f2. I like the lens a lot especially for deep DOF shots on my Sigma fp. In some of my bokeh shots at f2 especially with background at far-away distance the background rendering has been somewhat funky and not so pleasing to my eye. Not sure how much adapting the lens to Sigma fp and Sony A7C has contributed to the rendering there. Sigma fp's cover glass is reportedly (by Kolari measurement) 1.3mm so it should not be very far from Leica M cameras although not exactly same.
Jun 29, 2021 at 12:21 AM
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rscheffler wrote:
So far my feeling is the opposite. But I think I like the 28 Cron's character even more.
The VM feels nervous/swirly in the outer zone if there is anything higher contrast. Juha had an image in his Google Photos gallery that now seems to have been removed, that showed strong double line and how the astigmatism affects OOF text in backgrounds, with kind of an overlapping and offset sharp and soft image. My eyes find this to be very unsettling and distracting. The VM looks a lot better in lower contrast situations and where small specular OOF disks in the background have been avoided.
But for stopped down landscape type use, it would be tempting to carry the VM 28 with the VM 50 APO and 21 SEM. Now just need something new, sharp, compact and reasonably priced at ~90mm... ...Show more →
I am pretty sure that strong double line was shot with his Sony and I don't think we can judge the bokeh of the VM 28 f/2 for Leica M from its performance on a Sony camera. We know the lens is affected by the thicker sensor cover glass on Sony and the outer image is likely to have more astigmatism and worse bokeh on a Sony camera.
That said, I don't think anyone is saying the rendering of the VM 28 f/2 is without issues even on a Leica camera (the Sigma fp may be in between in performance). The lens definitely has vignetting leading to greater depth of field toward the corners. It is certainly pretty high contrast and has only a little SA so transitions aren't great. I think it does especially poorly near blown out areas in the bokeh. That said, CA is the bokeh isn't too bad and on Leica I haven't seen much if any double lining. I don't find the background all that harsh either and although the transition are great, they aren't terrible either, IMO.
I did have the 28 lux for a little over a year and used it a lot. I would say that both you and Fred are right. I think wide open the Lux to my eyes has the same problems as the VM but they are a little worse. Lots of vignetting, not great transitions, and a bit busyness in general. That said I found the 28 lux to improve a lot as you stopped down. I would say at similar aperture, it might be a little better than the VM 28 f/2 II. I also gave the 7 artisans 28 f/1.4 and I don't think it has that much if any better bokeh. The lens that looks to be as having the best bokeh is the Leica 28 cron and perhaps especially the first version.
Steve Spencer wrote:
I am pretty sure that strong double line was shot with his Sony and I don't think we can judge the bokeh of the VM 28 f/2 for Leica M from its performance on a Sony camera. We know the lens is affected by the thicker sensor cover glass on Sony and the outer image is likely to have more astigmatism and worse bokeh on a Sony camera.
That said, I don't think anyone is saying the rendering of the VM 28 f/2 is without issues even on a Leica camera (the Sigma fp may be in between in performance). The lens definitely has vignetting leading to greater depth of field toward the corners. It is certainly pretty high contrast and has only a little SA so transitions aren't great. I think it does especially poorly near blown out areas in the bokeh. That said, CA is the bokeh isn't too bad and on Leica I haven't seen much if any double lining. I don't find the background all that harsh either and although the transition are great, they aren't terrible either, IMO.
I did have the 28 lux for a little over a year and used it a lot. I would say that both you and Fred are right. I think wide open the Lux to my eyes has the same problems as the VM but they are a little worse. Lots of vignetting, not great transitions, and a bit busyness in general. That said I found the 28 lux to improve a lot as you stopped down. I would say at similar aperture, it might be a little better than the VM 28 f/2 II. I also gave the 7 artisans 28 f/1.4 and I don't think it has that much if any better bokeh. The lens that looks to be as having the best bokeh is the Leica 28 cron and perhaps especially the first version....Show more →
Steve Spencer wrote:
The lens that looks to be as having the best bokeh is the Leica 28 cron and perhaps especially the first version.
I love my V1 28cron. Very smooth bokeh (for a wide angle) but what I love the most is the "cut out" look that it creates, there's almost some kind of halos around the in focus subject. It has its own flaws for sure, but a happy compromise for me.
jeffersoncasey wrote:
I love my V1 28cron. Very smooth bokeh (for a wide angle) but what I love the most is the "cut out" look that it creates, there's almost some kind of halos around the in focus subject. It has its own flaws for sure, but a happy compromise for me.
Keeper lens for me, too - no need to upgrade. Love the smooth bokeh wide open like in the example below which I took recently with my M 240.
Something for flavor, M-240. Near and distant point-of-focus wide open. At f/2, iso 200 and 1/4000 it's somewhat outside the realm of a good exposure... (Resized ooc jpg. No lens profile set.)
I have looked through all those shots with the fp (or at least I think I have) and I don't see any with strong double line or text in the bokeh that looks smeared. There isn't a lot of bokeh in those shots, but what I see doesn't look too bad, apart from the other weaknesses noted above--vignetting causing more depth of field towards the corners and pretty high contrast bokeh in general.
I have not tested the Leica, but the Ultron II has much better bokeh than the old (version 1), and very much enhanced performance compared to my old Zeiss ZM Biogon 28/2.8, at least at apertures wider than f5.6 for sure. Overall, it is a very small lens, well built, and a great upgrade. I will keep mine
Arvaker wrote:
I have not tested the Leica, but the Ultron II has much better bokeh than the old (version 1), and very much enhanced performance compared to my old Zeiss ZM Biogon 28/2.8, at least at apertures wider than f5.6 for sure. Overall, it is a very small lens, well built, and a great upgrade. I will keep mine
You make a good case for the Voigt ... I'm curious how this compares to M28/2.8 ASPH. That, and what PP you're using to get the most out of the Voigt? Your blue headlight tractor and pastural scene, et al call to me. Some folks have a bevy of 50's ... I've got a few 28's. What's one more, right?
Juha Kannisto wrote:
I haven't knowingly removed any albums or images from Google Photos that I shared earlier in the other thread related to this lens. I have also taken some more since then.
These are all the shots I've taken with the lens so far that I have in Google Photos:
With all my Sigma fp shots I used Lens Compensation profiles created in-camera to eliminate color-shading that Sigma fp has some tendency to have with wide angle RF lenses. I created one profile for infinity at f5.6 and another for minimum focus distance at f2 (by shooting a compensation frames towards a bright sky through expodisc) and I switched the profile in camera based on the type of shots I was taking each time. This should mainly help to remove any color shading from edges/corners and it may also reduce vignetting to some extent.
My samples are pretty much all taken at f5.6 or wide open at f2. I like the lens a lot especially for deep DOF shots on my Sigma fp. In some of my bokeh shots at f2 especially with background at far-away distance the background rendering has been somewhat funky and not so pleasing to my eye. Not sure how much adapting the lens to Sigma fp and Sony A7C has contributed to the rendering there. Sigma fp's cover glass is reportedly (by Kolari measurement) 1.3mm so it should not be very far from Leica M cameras although not exactly same....Show more →
Sorry for the slow reply. You're right, the image I was thinking about is still there... in the Sigma gallery. When going back to your links I only found the Sony gallery, hence why I couldn't find it.
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Steve Spencer wrote:
I am pretty sure that strong double line was shot with his Sony and I don't think we can judge the bokeh of the VM 28 f/2 for Leica M from its performance on a Sony camera. We know the lens is affected by the thicker sensor cover glass on Sony and the outer image is likely to have more astigmatism and worse bokeh on a Sony camera.
That said, I don't think anyone is saying the rendering of the VM 28 f/2 is without issues even on a Leica camera (the Sigma fp may be in between in performance). The lens definitely has vignetting leading to greater depth of field toward the corners. It is certainly pretty high contrast and has only a little SA so transitions aren't great. I think it does especially poorly near blown out areas in the bokeh. That said, CA is the bokeh isn't too bad and on Leica I haven't seen much if any double lining. I don't find the background all that harsh either and although the transition are great, they aren't terrible either, IMO.
I did have the 28 lux for a little over a year and used it a lot. I would say that both you and Fred are right. I think wide open the Lux to my eyes has the same problems as the VM but they are a little worse. Lots of vignetting, not great transitions, and a bit busyness in general. That said I found the 28 lux to improve a lot as you stopped down. I would say at similar aperture, it might be a little better than the VM 28 f/2 II. I also gave the 7 artisans 28 f/1.4 and I don't think it has that much if any better bokeh. The lens that looks to be as having the best bokeh is the Leica 28 cron and perhaps especially the first version....Show more →
I agree there is likely some additional nervousness due to the thicker Sony/Sigma sensor cover glass, but the image I'm thinking about was probably focused near to MFD where sensor thickness will negatively affect image quality less than at infinity.
rscheffler wrote:
Sorry for the slow reply. You're right, the image I was thinking about is still there... in the Sigma gallery. When going back to your links I only found the Sony gallery, hence why I couldn't find it.
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I agree there is likely some additional nervousness due to the thicker Sony/Sigma sensor cover glass, but the image I'm thinking about was probably focused near to MFD where sensor thickness will negatively affect image quality less than at infinity.
See upper left electrical cables showing double line effect and weird double image effect in upper right OOF signage.
The bicycle photo was shot probably from a distance of around 2m (closer to MFD than infinity for sure). That was a particular shot where I also thought the background rendering wasn't really pleasing.
mapgraphs wrote:
Another grab-shot, (I was going to say f/4-5.6, but probably not...)
Thanks. It appears to have quite a bit of vignetting, if this is shot at f/4 or f/5.6.
Is it your impression, that the Ultron II has quite heavy vignetting?
Or perhaps it was shot at f/2 or f/2.8?
For non-Leica M shooters that would be even worse, I expect, based on a comparison I did with my Kolari UT modded Nikon Z6 versus Leica M (240) with my 28mm Summicron-M Asph II (where the M240 had less vignetting, but more "Italian flag" compared to the Z6UT).
LarsHP wrote:
Thanks. It appears to have quite a bit of vignetting, if this is shot at f/4 or f/5.6.
Is it your impression, that the Ultron II has quite heavy vignetting?
Or perhaps it was shot at f/2 or f/2.8?
For non-Leica M shooters that would be even worse, I expect, based on a comparison I did with my Kolari UT modded Nikon Z6 versus Leica M (240) with my 28mm Summicron-M Asph II (where the M240 had less vignetting, but more "Italian flag" compared to the Z6UT).
I posted these earlier in the thread taken with my tripod mounted Kolari Vision UT sensor modified A7rII and the lens. The first image is straight out of the camera with the exception of +0.49 Stops using my calibration for cloudy conditions and LR defaults at f4. The second image is the same set-up with some processing in LR and shot at f5.6; I checked there is no adjustment for Vignetting in the processing.
Rich
ISO 100, f4, 1/640 sec., Straight out of Camera with LR defaults except +0.49 stops in LR
ISO 100, f5.6, 1/250 sec., Processed in LR including increase of sharpness default and detail default from 25 to 26; 0 adjustment for vignetting
naturephoto1 wrote:
I posted these earlier in the thread taken with my tripod mounted Kolari Vision UT sensor modified A7rII and the lens. The first image is straight out of the camera with the exception of +0.49 Stops using my calibration for cloudy conditions and LR defaults at f4. The second image is the same set-up with some processing in LR and shot at f5.6; I checked there is no adjustment for Vignetting in the processing.
Rich
Thanks. This is reassuring.
I recognize the images you reposted, but forgot them when I saw the image from mapgraphs.
