Again, I think people that say the 5D4 isn't for action just haven't found the correct settings. To say that the 5D4 isn't an action camera says more about the photographer's gear (lenses, etc) and settings than it does about the 5D4 itself.
I have used the 5D4 for NBA action (paid contracts), high school sports action, etc with no issues at all. Keep in mind I have also used 7D2, 1D3, 1D4, and 5D3 in the past for the same contracts. On the 5D4, I ended up going to spot AF with the AF settings set up correctly to track a player, and it works VERY well. I know of others that also use this for other sports like NFL, and major/minor league ball. I know there are some that are so very dependent on fast bursts to get their results, but that just isn't always the correct answer. Getting to know the cadence of the action/sports is much more important than burst rates, for example.
The R6's 2 advantages are indeed eye AF and the continuous nature of AF "points" across the sensor for object "handoff", but beyond that, it is on par or slightly behind the 5D4 in certain situations, for cases where you use a single AF point or AF point with expansion. I use both side by side even today for sports, and will often see these pros and cons for each.
I have to set up my R6 with two different back-button AF modes just to get it to have a mode that matches the 5D4 in some cases. When Eye AF doesn't work, I go to spot AF, but unfortunately the R6 spot AF is much larger than the spot AF of the 5D4, so it falls behind in that regard.
TeamSpeed wrote:
Again, I think people that say the 5D4 isn't for action just haven't found the correct settings. To say that the 5D4 isn't an action camera says more about the photographer's gear (lenses, etc) and settings than it does about the 5D4 itself.
I have used the 5D4 for NBA action (paid contracts), high school sports action, etc with no issues at all. I ended up going to spot AF with the AF settings set up correctly to track a player, and it works VERY well. I know of others that also use this for other sports like NFL, and major/minor league ball.
The R6's only advantage is indeed eye AF, but beyond that, it is on par or slightly behind the 5D4 in certain situations. I use both side by side even today for sports, and will often see these pros and cons for each....Show more →
Of course you can use a 5DIV for sports and it works well. But there is no comparison with the full array Af vs smaller cluster of 5DIV, 12 fps vs 7fps of 5DIV (or 20 if you prefer ES), and a higher keeper rate with the R6. I used them side by side as well and I use all of Canons best lenses. Tracking is better on the R6 and I'm not sure why you would want almost half the fps of the 5DIV when shooting sports?
But like you said, yes one can use 5DIV and get good results but that could be said about any DSLR. I could still use a 1DIIN and compete with a 1DXIII in good light, but which camera is truly better for sports today even though both cameras are capable of getting the same shot?
The R6 EVF is annoying, but it's still better in every other way than 5DIV for sports except for maybe battery life.
We will just have to disagree. Again, I use both side by side even today, and there are some failures of the R6 when there are players milling around and it loses track of the eyes/face that it was following, where with spot AF on the 5D4, it locks on and stays on if I do my job correctly at keeping it on the subject.
Now with birding, and motorsports, and similar events, the R6 does have strength over the 5D4, but in many teams sports with milling players and constant obstruction, the R6 will actually do worse in situations. Not all sports/action would I want the camera to "track" something through the frame also, and actually want to keep AF in a certain spot. This is why I have the * button set to spot AF, but unfortunately the R6 spot AF area/coverage is many times larger than the phase detect AF array on the 5D4.
I am just trying to address the "blanket statement" that the 5D4 isn't an action/sports body, and the inverse that the R6 is better than the 5D4 in all regards for action/sports. Neither are true or factual, and it is a case by case situation, both on the event and the shooter's experiences. Perhaps this where we can agree.
And I am willing to offer up my sports settings off my 5D4 for anyone that is interested, as well as my R6 settings.
artsupreme wrote:
Of course you can use a 5DIV for sports and it works well. But there is no comparison with the full array Af vs smaller cluster of 5DIV, 12 fps vs 7fps of 5DIV (or 20 if you prefer ES), and a higher keeper rate with the R6. I used them side by side as well and I use all of Canons best lenses. Tracking is better on the R6 and I'm not sure why you would want almost half the fps of the 5DIV when shooting sports?
But like you said, yes one can use 5DIV and get good results but that could be said about any DSLR. I could still use a 1DIIN and compete with a 1DXIII in good light, but which camera is truly better for sports today even though both cameras are capable of getting the same shot?
The R6 EVF is annoying, but it's still better in every other way than 5DIV for sports except for maybe battery life....Show more →
I couldn't agree more.
If the 5D Mark iv were an action camera, I would have bought 2 of them for the price of the XIII.
Out of the box, the R6 was ready for action and right out of the box, the 5D Mark iv was ready for team photo day, senior photos and brides.
I wouldn't chose the R6 for weddings and I would never bring a 5D Mark iv for Ohio State football and lens choice and settings have nothing to do with it.
The R6 does outstandingly well at weddings, and actually can make, for some folks, a better tool than the 5D4 in that regard. There you actually have faces that are often not obstructed during the ceremony and reception where the R6 Eye AF does particularly well. I enjoyed shooting weddings more with my R6 than my 5D4.
It certainly is interesting watching the broad strokes of a brush being used across the camera models. Just because one person feels they cannot use a model for a particular situation doesn't mean it isn't suited for that situation generally. It just means that relationship of shooter/gear isn't ideal for whatever the reason.
For the OP, the only reason I would suggest moving from the 5D4 to something like the R6 is just for longevity and ability to access new glass over time, and IBIS. It sounds like this may be a purchase that has to stand the test of time and the R6 would fit that better than the 5D4 long-term. If there was a way to keep both the 5D4 and get the R6, that would be the best answer, because I don't like losing resolution with a new camera, but would rather always have the same or more than my old camera.
If the 5D Mark iv were an action camera, I would have bought 2 of them for the price of the XIII.
Out of the box, the R6 was ready for action and right out of the box, the 5D Mark iv was ready for team photo day, senior photos and brides.
I wouldn't chose the R6 for weddings and I would never bring a 5D Mark iv for Ohio State football and lens choice and settings have nothing to do with it.
As pros, we use the gear best suited for the job
Actually the R6 is the perfect wedding camera. Amazing AF with a manageable file size. Bigger file is a waste of space unless you're using the wrong lens and having to crop all the time.
The discussion surprisingly spilled into page two, so I'm going to address or restate some questions and or situation:
- I have gotten nice results with 5DIV, including sports. HOWEVER, the camera is inconsitent, a lot of times so much that although I've *captured the key moment* nicely none of the shots are acceptably sharp *to me* and more often than not completely out of focus. This is unacceptable in a working evironment.
- I stated in my opening post that R5 is out of the question. I would LOVE to have one camera that does it all, but in the situation before the pandemic and what will follow, it would be financially IRRESPONSIBLE to spend 4500 EUR ex VAT instead of 2300 EUR ex VAT.
- I COULD try to sell 5DIV, but I doubt I would get more than 1400 EUR for it. And considering the fact I spent 5-6 months selling BRAND NEW 50 mm f1.4 for 200 EUR (half the cost of a new one), I doubt I would find a buyer for it. Remember, not every market is as strong as US.
- I did send 5DIV into CPS service. They did not do anything about it except to reset into factory defaults.
- the PROBLEMS with 5DIV AF are real. For example - when I set the AF case to something other that the default, the results are way worse than that. To this day, I have some sequences of 15-20 photos in a row that are out of focus, and that was of a biathlete going straight at me, moving constantly.
- I WILL be keeping 5DIV for less demanding and tripod stuff, which I do all the time, including a lot of paid stuff (or was doing, before the whole thing). I have absolutely no issue with the camera here.
Are your shutter speeds fast enough? Single point, AI servo, high SS should yield consistent results with the 5DIV. The R6 will get you more FPS and it tracks better.
artsupreme wrote:
Are your shutter speeds fast enough? Single point, AI servo, high SS should yield consistent results with the 5DIV. The R6 will get you more FPS and it tracks better.
I've been shooting sports fo 15 years, so ... yes...
I use a custom AF case. Those few provided by Canon are starting points to help, but none of them worked for me consistently. I also switched to spot AF which also upped the keeper rate. My shutter speeds are always 1/1000 or more.
I use the 5d4 for basketball, football, softball, baseball, rugby, and marching band, which coincidentally can actually be more difficult than some sports. The R6 is better if you use the camera to track across its array or can use eye AF, but not always better if you don’t use eye AF and try to use single point AF.
Also the same type of settings I used on the 1d4 and 7d2 did NOT work on the 5d4. It took me a couple of games to reach the settings I ultimately used for a couple years since.
Milan Hutera wrote:
The discussion surprisingly spilled into page two, so I'm going to address or restate some questions and or situation:
- I have gotten nice results with 5DIV, including sports. HOWEVER, the camera is inconsitent, a lot of times so much that although I've *captured the key moment* nicely none of the shots are acceptably sharp *to me* and more often than not completely out of focus. This is unacceptable in a working evironment.
- I stated in my opening post that R5 is out of the question. I would LOVE to have one camera that does it all, but in the situation before the pandemic and what will follow, it would be financially IRRESPONSIBLE to spend 4500 EUR ex VAT instead of 2300 EUR ex VAT.
- I COULD try to sell 5DIV, but I doubt I would get more than 1400 EUR for it. And considering the fact I spent 5-6 months selling BRAND NEW 50 mm f1.4 for 200 EUR (half the cost of a new one), I doubt I would find a buyer for it. Remember, not every market is as strong as US.
- I did send 5DIV into CPS service. They did not do anything about it except to reset into factory defaults.
- the PROBLEMS with 5DIV AF are real. For example - when I set the AF case to something other that the default, the results are way worse than that. To this day, I have some sequences of 15-20 photos in a row that are out of focus, and that was of a biathlete going straight at me, moving constantly.
- I WILL be keeping 5DIV for less demanding and tripod stuff, which I do all the time, including a lot of paid stuff (or was doing, before the whole thing). I have absolutely no issue with the camera here. ...Show more →
Milan:
Much success with your new camera.
I think it will rejuvenate your interest to photograph action again and I hope conditions return to normal in your country and your business prospers and you post some excellent examples from the R6.
I ran the 5D4 for today's school track and field. I ran several 30+ frame bursts with my current setup. Every single burst (using spot AF and zone tracking) had about a 85-90% success rate. This is my experience in the past 3+ years as well with this set up. I have to assume there was something wrong with your 5D4.
Here is just one sequence of several I took of the hurdles and 100m dashes. The circled images are the ones OOF.
The one I put out for the parents.
The next meet, I will take the R6 and do the same.
Not sure what focal length and aperture you are shooting above but maybe Milan shoots much tighter and with larger apertures than you? From looking at your images I can tell you I shoot much much tighter than you which is more challenging for the camera's AF system. Also, what aperture did use? I'm often nearly wide open with Canon's fastest glass which makes it even more challenging to nail focus. So, shooting tight with max aperture vs shooting wide and cropping perhaps is the reason why we have differing opinions on which body is better for sports.
I am shooting with the EF 600mm f4 IS III wide open, so it's as tight as it can be. With spot AF and adequate shutter speed I don't have any issue in following athletes. Of course, sometimes I get one or two frames out of focus, but I don't mind that much. So while the R6's AF, focus point array and frame rate are better than on the older 5D4, you can shoot sports with the latter, because its AF can handle human motion. Humans are not that fast.
Where 5D4 AF is not that good is for fast incoming or erratic subjects (birds, small and agile mammals) with low contrast and often small in the frame. A R6 will be much better for this job, but with only 20Mpx there is not much room for cropping. By comparison, shooting ski jumping is very easy. I know where the jumpers are, where they'll fly and they are big and shiny targets for the AF. So we'll have to agree to disagree on this
Uarctos wrote:
I am shooting with the EF 600mm f4 IS III wide open, so it's as tight as it can be. With spot AF and adequate shutter speed I don't have any issue in following athletes. Of course, sometimes I get one or two frames out of focus, but I don't mind that much. So while the R6's AF, focus point array and frame rate are better than on the older 5D4, you can shoot sports with the latter, because its AF can handle human motion. Humans are not that fast.
Where 5D4 AF is not that good is for fast incoming or erratic subjects (birds, small and agile mammals) with low contrast and often small in the frame. A R6 will be much better for this job, but with only 20Mpx there is not much room for cropping. By comparison, shooting ski jumping is very easy. I know where the jumpers are, where they'll fly and they are big and shiny targets for the AF. So we'll have to agree to disagree on this ...Show more →
I'm not quite sure what you are saying, Is this teamspeed under a different username?
I'm not saying the 5D4 can't get good results with it's 7fps, I'm saying the R6 can do much better while shooting tight with large apertures.
Are you saying the 5D4 is better than the R6? I'm confused.
I am not teamspeed, but we're using the same spot focus on the same camera, it seems :-)
I am not saying that 5D4 is better than the R6 in the AF department, all I am saying is that it can handle sports with my 600III. So while the R6 may AF better or faster and has a higher frame rate, I don't need the R6 to get the job done, since my 5D4 can also do it. I am shooting with a 600mm f4 lens, wide open and that is very tight.
The R6 AF will be much better for fast and erratic creatures, no question about it.
Uarctos wrote:
I am not teamspeed, but we're using the same spot focus on the same camera, it seems :-)
I am not saying that 5D4 is better than the R6 in the AF department, all I am saying is that it can handle sports with my 600III. So while the R6 may AF better or faster and has a higher frame rate, I don't need the R6 to get the job done, since my 5D4 can also do it. I am shooting with a 600mm f4 lens, wide open and that is very tight.
The R6 AF will be much better for fast and erratic creatures, no question about it.
I think you would also agree that shooting tight with large apertures is more challenging to nail focus than shooting wide with small apertures. This is what I was pointing out to Teamspeed above after he posted his set.
I still use my 5D4 for certain situations where it can hang, it’s a great camera.
I guess I'm crazy or something. If someone posted that, yes, your camera should be fine, on a thread I posted after having issues, I'd probably be like, ok, tell me how. I might be a bit bent out of shape missing a setting, but it's definitely not the first time. And hey then I don't need a to buy a camera.
But the right thing to do is to push the new mirrorless , and ignore and argue. Hey those people posting excellent photos using DSLR's must be doing something wrong. It can't be that I missed an obscure setting or anything. Spending thousands on mirrorless is always the answer
But anyway I'm gonna go shoot my SL2. Which is probably wring too. With inexpensive lenses. Enough of this
AmbientMike wrote:
I guess I'm crazy or something. If someone posted that, yes, your camera should be fine, on a thread I posted after having issues, I'd probably be like, ok, tell me how. I might be a bit bent out of shape missing a setting, but it's definitely not the first time. And hey then I don't need a to buy a camera.
But the right thing to do is to push the new mirrorless , and ignore and argue. Hey those people posting excellent photos using DSLR's must be doing something wrong. It can't be that I missed an obscure setting or anything. Spending thousands on mirrorless is always the answer
But anyway I'm gonna go shoot my SL2. Which is probably wring too. With inexpensive lenses. Enough of this ...Show more →
Mike, I don't know what is so hard to understand. It DOESN'T WORK FOR ME. Even if the AF was fine, which it isn't because it gives me issues in One Shot mode too on static subjects. READ MY POSTS, I still don't like the AF array. I have so many centered compositions because of the stupid hump it has in the middle. My 1DIV, while not perfect, doesn't have this problem.
TeamSpeed wrote:
I ran the 5D4 for today's school track and field. I ran several 30+ frame bursts with my current setup. Every single burst (using spot AF and zone tracking) had about a 85-90% success rate. This is my experience in the past 3+ years as well with this set up. I have to assume there was something wrong with your 5D4.
Here is just one sequence of several I took of the hurdles and 100m dashes. The circled images are the ones OOF.
The next meet, I will take the R6 and do the same. ...Show more →
There was not something wrong with my camera. There IS something wrong with my camera. I'm usually shooting tighter than this and at f3.5. Because of this, I'm not expecting a 100% hit rate. But again, how come 5DIV produced totally out of focus in a strong morning light, that allowed 1/2000 shutter speed at ISO 100? We are not splitting hairs here. Totally out of focus. How come I'm getting out of focus photos of people cleaning the meadow using the same AFMA setting that worked well in the past and 1 hour later in identical light at default settings which DIDN"T work in the past? You're welcome to share your AF settings, but I doubt it will make a difference.
