OK while we can all agree that R6 is better, the 5DIV is pretty good. Perhaps Milan will continue his bad luck if/when he gets an R6 if he happens to get a lemon.
Milan so as long as you have a lens long enough to cover your sport shooting without out having to crop in much, then the R6 will do the job for you with an AF system that I think you will enjoy over your 5DIV. If I had to crop in quite a bit for many of my sports shots, I would save my pennies for the R5, or future high MP R camera's to come. There was a sports shooter that bought a R5 to replace his 1DXIII for his exclusive collegiate swim shooting. He wound up selling the R5 for the R6, as he discovered after using it, he did not need the larger pixel sensor.
Perhaps you have the opportunity to rent it, and see for your self. That may be the best way to decide.
Milan Hutera wrote:
There was not something wrong with my camera. There IS something wrong with my camera. I'm usually shooting tighter than this and at f3.5. Because of this, I'm not expecting a 100% hit rate. But again, how come 5DIV produced totally out of focus in a strong morning light, that allowed 1/2000 shutter speed at ISO 100? We are not splitting hairs here. Totally out of focus. How come I'm getting out of focus photos of people cleaning the meadow using the same AFMA setting that worked well in the past and 1 hour later in identical light at default settings which DIDN"T work in the past? You're welcome to share your AF settings, but I doubt it will make a difference. ...Show more →
Milan:
I hope you are able to try out an R6 so you can feel good about your action photography and put your 5D Mark IV out of its misery.
Some of us have stated ( from first-hand experience ) the 5D Mark IV is not the best for action photography and explained why an R6 will give you much better results right out of the box.
I showed you examples of what the R6 and R5 can do but I never posted any action photos from my 5D Mark IV. Reason being...that is not what it was designed for and it stays in the studio. Now...I could post tons of wedding, portrait and commercial work taken with the camera but that is a different subject altogether.
The weather will be getting nice and outdoor sports will return and you can start anew with a camera made for sports.
AmbientMike wrote:
I guess I'm crazy or something. If someone posted that, yes, your camera should be fine, on a thread I posted after having issues, I'd probably be like, ok, tell me how. I might be a bit bent out of shape missing a setting, but it's definitely not the first time. And hey then I don't need a to buy a camera.
But the right thing to do is to push the new mirrorless , and ignore and argue. Hey those people posting excellent photos using DSLR's must be doing something wrong. It can't be that I missed an obscure setting or anything. Spending thousands on mirrorless is always the answer
But anyway I'm gonna go shoot my SL2. Which is probably wring too. With inexpensive lenses. Enough of this ...Show more →
Your SL2 with inexpensive glass if fine, just as any other older or less expensive camera is capable. I'm a big proponent of using older bodies if you can make them work. I have usually always been a generation or two behind with bodies, even though I can afford the most recent bodies. I could still use a 1DIIN today for sports in good lighting and get great results. If I didn't have the budget for newer gear that's exactly the camera I would be using. But if I'm comparing a 1DIIN to a 1DXII I would say say the 1DXII is much better even though the 1DIIN is capable of capturing the same image.
So in this thread when we are comparing a 5DIV to an R6 for sports, it's the same story. For what I shoot and how I shoot (tight with large apertures) the R6 is much better. Can I do the same with my 5DIV? Yes, but I would have less keepers and therefore I would choose R6 over the 5DIV. If I was going for less fps and more resolution for for more reach and a slight crop (such as shooting intermediate surfers) then I would pickup the 5DIV because I wouldn't need the best AF tracking or 12fps to get "the shot".
This thread is living proof it's really important to know what people shoot and how they shoot when they are sharing opinions on a camera's performance.
IndyFab wrote:
Milan so as long as you have a lens long enough to cover your sport shooting without out having to crop in much, then the R6 will do the job for you with an AF system that I think you will enjoy over your 5DIV. If I had to crop in quite a bit for many of my sports shots, I would save my pennies for the R5, or future high MP R camera's to come. There was a sports shooter that bought a R5 to replace his 1DXIII for his exclusive collegiate swim shooting. He wound up selling the R5 for the R6, as he discovered after using it, he did not need the larger pixel sensor.
Perhaps you have the opportunity to rent it, and see for your self. That may be the best way to decide. ...Show more →
^^^^^This...
I do not need an R5 for sports and given a choice would choose the R6 based on my shooting style. Very minimal cropping and I would not want the large R5 files. I would use the R5 for travel or landscape, but that's what I use my 5DIV for and it's sufficient for now. However, after using the R6 AF there are times when I wish I had the R6 AF array in my 5DIV. But I'll continue to use it until the next couple RF bodies are released.
Not sure what focal length and aperture you are shooting above but maybe Milan shoots much tighter and with larger apertures than you? From looking at your images I can tell you I shoot much much tighter than you which is more challenging for the camera's AF system. Also, what aperture did use? I'm often nearly wide open with Canon's fastest glass which makes it even more challenging to nail focus. So, shooting tight with max aperture vs shooting wide and cropping perhaps is the reason why we have differing opinions on which body is better for sports.
WIth a tighter frame, my results get more consistent. I was using my 400mm. Spot AF on a face seems to do better. When I do NBA ball, I am on the perimeter of the court and the players are right in my face most of the time, to the point I have been run over a few times by players. My keeper rate there is better than track and field. I rarely shoot action or sports with zone AF, it is about 90% spot AF and I keep my point above center locked onto the players I am tracking, which may be different than how others use their gear.
I have no idea how well the R6 will work with that kind of action as the Pacers have continued to restrict their G league play in this area. It does very well with rugby though. As Indyfab states, you don't want to crop too much on the R6, so make sure you can frame the shots as you want them while in-camera.
Basically the situation is:
- For 1 day only, I have the opportunity to get a rather big discount on R5. I have to make the decision by the end of the day. Still the cost is ... well, big.
- The basic adapters are still taking the Rolex path, although I just ordered one that appears to be in stock for basically MSRP. And I don't even have an RF body yet
- I downloaded some R5 samples from DPR and latest Adobe DNG Converter, some of them failed to convert.
- I did the same with some R6 samples, every one of them converted without problems. For some reason Amazonaws served them as .mp4, not .cr3
- I still can get R6 for a nice price, including the Canon Cashback which lasts till the end of August, so I'm not in a big hurry to decide.
Damn you Canon. If R6 was 24mpix, I wouldn't be so hesitant
There's no doubt that the R5 and R6 will AF better than the 5DIV and I think there's no doubt that you should get one or the other (R5 or R6).
However, I think there's something wrong with your 5DIV, even if CPS says there isn't. Is there any way you can borrow another 5DIV? If not, maybe rent one? Not that it really matters if you're going to dump it and go mirrorless.
As for the choice between the R5 and R6, in the U.S. the price difference is $1400. I'm not sure how it can be a 2200 EUR difference there. And the R5 can do everything the R6 can do and more (except go to 200K ISO--the R5 tops out at 100K, as if that's not enough). You have 45Mpx files when you need them and when you don't need all that resolution then just set it to lower res and you get nice 22.5Mpx files.
Al Goldis wrote:
There's no doubt that the R5 and R6 will AF better than the 5DIV and I think there's no doubt that you should get one or the other (R5 or R6).
However, I think there's something wrong with your 5DIV, even if CPS says there isn't. Is there any way you can borrow another 5DIV? If not, maybe rent one? Not that it really matters if you're going to dump it and go mirrorless.
As for the choice between the R5 and R6, in the U.S. the price difference is $1400. I'm not sure how it can be a 2200 EUR difference there. And the R5 can do everything the R6 can do and more (except go to 200K ISO--the R5 tops out at 100K, as if that's not enough). You have 45Mpx files when you need them and when you don't need all that resolution then just set it to lower res and you get nice 22.5Mpx files....Show more →
You might be not be aware of this, but pricing in USA has always been "special" compared to the rest of the world. Even if you don't take the VAT into consideration, it has never been a 1:1 USD/EUR conversion. Stuff that costs say 1000 USD often costs 1200EUR and more often than not that's a price not including VAT, which is specific for each EU state. As I write this, the R5 cost 4500 EUR including VAT and R6 costs 2700 EUR including VAT - a 1800 EUR difference. Based on today's exchange rate, that's 2140 USD.
I won't be dumping the 5DIV, since I'll be most likely buying the R6 in the next few days (I'm basically waiting for the adapter to show up). I said I have no issues with 5DIV using it for tripod/liveview work and I like the files it produces. There is little point in borrowing or renting 5DIV at this point, since it won't solve my particular unit and it won't solve the horrific AF array configuration all 5DIV's have.
Everyone uses the 5d4 differently it seems. Personally I haven’t found a sport or action event that I could not use the 5d4 on with great success. Spot AF, modified case 2, and off center AF points every single time… but I can see where others may find the camera limited in certain cases.
The R6 is nice though too, but it comes with other disadvantages the 5d4 doesn’t have regarding AF, especially in certain cases where there aren’t eyes involved.
Milan Hutera wrote:
I said I have no issues with 5DIV using it for tripod/liveview work and I like the files it produces. There is little point in borrowing or renting 5DIV at this point, since it won't solve my particular unit and it won't solve the horrific AF array configuration all 5DIV's have.
In your original post you wrote: "The group shots are for some reason a nightmare to take with this camera. One shot AF or AI Servo - doesn't matter. I take 6 shots, refocus between each shutter press and 4 of them are slightly out of focus that sharpening won't save."
That sure sounds like a problem to me. Totally unacceptable.
Just because someone at CPS, who may have been having a bad day, says it's fine, that doesn't make it true.
No one else here is having as much trouble with a 5DIV as you. If you can try a different 5DIV and it handles AF better, particularly static group shots, then you know CPS's assessment was wrong.
Also with group shots, you would want a large enough DOF to cover all folks, which is very hard to screw up and get OOF or missed focus shots. This sounds like an issue with the camera or too slow a shutter speed, or too thin a focal plane. These are the only 3 ways a group shot would be not salvageable. I guess there is a 4th way, and that is a bad quality filter on the lens.
I don't take chances on group shots, so my aperture will be f5.6 or smaller every time, regardless of 5D4 or mirrorless, it doesn't matter. I also focus at least one row behind the first row. I was at f7.1, and could have gone down to f5.6, but with the wind blowing the girls hair around, and we kept waiting for the wind to die down, and I didn't want to hold them there too long. Sometimes, I personally feel that trying to blow out backgrounds is a bit over exaggerated as a need, vs getting the shot.
TeamSpeed wrote:
Also with group shots, you would want a large enough DOF to cover all folks, which is very hard to screw up and get OOF or missed focus shots. This sounds like an issue with the camera or too slow a shutter speed, or too thin a focal plane. These are the only 3 ways a group shot would be not salvageable. I guess there is a 4th way, and that is a bad quality filter on the lens.
I don't take chances on group shots, so my aperture will be f5.6 or smaller every time, regardless of 5D4 or mirrorless, it doesn't matter. I also focus at least one row behind the first row. I was at f7.1, and could have gone down to f5.6, but with the wind blowing the girls hair around, and we kept waiting for the wind to die down, and I didn't want to hold them there too long. Sometimes, I personally feel that trying to blow out backgrounds is a bit over exaggerated as a need, vs getting the shot.
Agreed. I tend to play it safe with group shots too. f/5.6-8 is my choice. You can always do a little masking and blurring of the background if you feel the need, but you can't go back and bring people into sharp focus if you screw up the aperture.
Long term 5D4 user (from launch as matter of fact!) who's recently upgraded to the R6 so thought I'd chime in.
Not a sports/action shooter but I did upgrade to the R6 for the new AF system and IBIS and can say it's changed the way I shoot for the better. For the most part the AF just works; I have much more confidence that the camera is going to nail focus now so I can just concentrate on the shot itself instead of worrying about missing focus (particularly when shooting with lenses like the Sigma 135 wide open at f/1.8). There are definitely some quirks with the DPAF system (such as when trying to focus on horizontal lines) but for the most part it's very snappy and more importantly accurate. Being able to compose freely instead of being restricted by the AF points is quite liberating as well.
EVF is quite nice to look at; instant feedback is great and I like that you can configure it to show certain info in the EVF though it's not without quirks (such as the occasional lag).
Files coming out of the R6 are simply fantastic. I was a bit worried going down to 20mpx but FWIW so far it's not been an issue; beautiful, natural colours (just like the 5D4) while looking super clean and sharp. Despite the lower mpx count I find the R6 files have this "crispness" (for a lack of better term) over the 5D4 files that I can't quite explain. Maybe it's because of the larger pixels of the 20mpx sensor? Anyway I'd be tempted to call the files coming out of the R6 a more refined version of the 5D4. Done some cropping and the files still look great though I've not had to do anything too heavy so far so we'll see.
The IBIS is phenomenally good. I've tried handheld one whole second shooting at 16mm and just last night 0.3 second at 50mm (Sigma Art) and it came out tack sharp so it's a godsend for shooting still life.
Also Milan my first copy of 5D4 had this issue where the outer focus points would front focus compared to the central column of AF points (repeatable and definitely not user error and confirmed by Canon Australia here) and a number of owners shared the same experience over at POTN forum so I wonder if your body might have some genuine issues too.
bballfreak6 wrote:
Long term 5D4 user (from launch as matter of fact!) who's recently upgraded to the R6 so thought I'd chime in.
Not a sports/action shooter but I did upgrade to the R6 for the new AF system and IBIS and can say it's changed the way I shoot for the better. For the most part the AF just works; I have much more confidence that the camera is going to nail focus now so I can just concentrate on the shot itself instead of worrying about missing focus (particularly when shooting with lenses like the Sigma 135 wide open at f/1.8). There are definitely some quirks with the DPAF system (such as when trying to focus on horizontal lines) but for the most part it's very snappy and more importantly accurate. Being able to compose freely instead of being restricted by the AF points is quite liberating as well.
EVF is quite nice to look at; instant feedback is great and I like that you can configure it to show certain info in the EVF though it's not without quirks (such as the occasional lag).
Files coming out of the R6 are simply fantastic. I was a bit worried going down to 20mpx but FWIW so far it's not been an issue; beautiful, natural colours (just like the 5D4) while looking super clean and sharp. Despite the lower mpx count I find the R6 files have this "crispness" (for a lack of better term) over the 5D4 files that I can't quite explain. Maybe it's because of the larger pixels of the 20mpx sensor? Anyway I'd be tempted to call the files coming out of the R6 a more refined version of the 5D4. Done some cropping and the files still look great though I've not had to do anything too heavy so far so we'll see.
The IBIS is phenomenally good. I've tried handheld one whole second shooting at 16mm and just last night 0.3 second at 50mm (Sigma Art) and it came out tack sharp so it's a godsend for shooting still life.
Also Milan my first copy of 5D4 had this issue where the outer focus points would front focus compared to the central column of AF points (repeatable and definitely not user error and confirmed by Canon Australia here) and a number of owners shared the same experience over at POTN forum so I wonder if your body might have some genuine issues too. ...Show more →
Thank you very much for your input Tony, I greatly appreciate the good shooting experience you have with R6. My EF-RF adapter will come tomorrow, I will most likely pull the trigger in the next couple of days.
As for the other recent posts - I believe it was unecessary to state that I'm aware of DOF and that group shots are taken at f5.6 or 8 or even 11. Clearly I was mistaken...
Milan Hutera wrote:
Thank you very much for your input Tony, I greatly appreciate the good shooting experience you have with R6. My EF-RF adapter will come tomorrow, I will most likely pull the trigger in the next couple of days.
As for the other recent posts - I believe it was unecessary to state that I'm aware of DOF and that group shots are taken at f5.6 or 8 or even 11. Clearly I was mistaken...
No worries mate, looking forward to your thoughts once you get the camera.
I'd imagine you'd get accustomed to the new body pretty quickly; I was able to get it more or less setup the way I like with the 5D4 within the hour without even having to look at the manual, it's intuitive like that (typical of Canon bodies). Didn't miss the top LCD screen as much as I thought I would and I'm more than happy that I got an extra dial now to dedicate to switching ISO with.
I was a bit worried going down to 20mpx but FWIW so far it's not been an issue; beautiful, natural colours (just like the 5D4) while looking super clean and sharp. Despite the lower mpx count I find the R6 files have this "crispness" (for a lack of better term) over the 5D4 files that I can't quite explain.
I'd hazard a guess the difference between the two can be resolved by tweaking the sharpness setting in LR or PS, that's probably all that is needed to get them looking the same.
Just a quick update - after a bit of hesitation, I just ordered the R6. Should be available tomorrow afternoon for pickup. Sadly it won't arrive in time for a soccer match that I will most likely shoot. I will see how today's large event will go with 5DIV, but after last week's two events and more frustration with its AF (one sitting and barely moving tubist casually playing the tuba - 4 shots in a row OOF, 5th was razor sharp), I'm ready to be blown away with AF accuracy and consitency again. Hopefully that will be the case with R6...
