panos.v wrote:
I've lost track of how many times I put a Hexar (the RF and the AF too) in a shopping cart but never completed checkout. But having had a Contax G1, Rollei 6008 and even mechanical end of line cameras fail I'm just not risking anything like that again. The Ikon never really appealed, on paper it is great but the way it looks is just not there. As you say, a few years ago for £700 I'd try one, today good luck finding one for 1500+. I do wish I bought an XPan for £1500 a couple of years ago though. They go for nearly double that today. Crazy......Show more →
The dealer from whom I occasionally purchase used equipment has a Hexar RF for sale for AUD1245 (~USD960). This seems to be the going rate in Australia since I was offered a different one from another vendor for about the same amount a few months ago. It’s such an appealing camera that I might be willing to take a chance and pay half that but no more.
Yeah, read about this. Good to enrich the market with more renewed film choices, but I moved away mostly from Kodak films due to their pricing in recent times. Replaced them nearly all with Ilford and Fuji choices instead. Only one I still keep is Kodak Ektar 100.
Jan 04, 2021 at 06:13 PM
imagesfromobjects Offline • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
There's one on the B&S board. Very tempting. I had the M-Hexanon 50 and still have the 90. Gems.
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1680226/0?keyword=Hexar,rf#15449626
Like others, I'm not willing to risk ~$1500 on a camera that could crap out electronically, though. If only they'd made it mechanical, ugh. Same with the CLE and Ikon. The Ikon is wonderful, by the way. A kindly forum member actually let me borrow(!!) one for a few months. That vf is something else, dang.
On my personal "should have bought it when it was $800" list is the Bessa R4m. Still kicking myself.
genji wrote:
The dealer from whom I occasionally purchase used equipment has a Hexar RF for sale for AUD1245 (~USD960). This seems to be the going rate in Australia since I was offered a different one from another vendor for about the same amount a few months ago. It’s such an appealing camera that I might be willing to take a chance and pay half that but no more.
imagesfromobjects wrote:
There's one on the B&S board. Very tempting. I had the M-Hexanon 50 and still have the 90. Gems.
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1680226/0?keyword=Hexar,rf#15449626
Like others, I'm not willing to risk ~$1500 on a camera that could crap out electronically, though. If only they'd made it mechanical, ugh. Same with the CLE and Ikon. The Ikon is wonderful, by the way. A kindly forum member actually let me borrow(!!) one for a few months. That vf is something else, dang.
On my personal "should have bought it when it was $800" list is the Bessa R4m. Still kicking myself.
All prices for RF film cameras with exchangeable lenses went up significantly including Voigtlander Bessa cameras. I have seen a few YouTubers advertising Bessa-type cameras, and instantly ebay prices increased significantly afterwards and remained higher. I am so glad I got my used and nearly mint film Leica cameras > 5 years ago before all this RF hype started. I wouldn't buy any for current prices.
retrofocus wrote:
All prices for RF film cameras with exchangeable lenses went up significantly including Voigtlander Bessa cameras. I have seen a few YouTubers advertising Bessa-type cameras, and instantly ebay prices increased significantly afterwards and remained higher. I am so glad I got my used and nearly mint film Leica cameras > 5 years ago before all this RF hype started. I wouldn't buy any for current prices.
There are a few RF cameras I wouldn't touch, from experience. The Minolta CLE - I had two perfect condition ones which just quit working - and the Konica Hexar RF which has its known/notorious death by electronics issues. Both of which have increased in price..
I never enjoyed using my Bessa R3a so sold it on, prices now are crazy for them. It's pretty unbelievable that what was a budget camera (it was the bargain priced RF) made with parts that were used in many Cosina budget SLRs is more expensive now than a used Nikon F6. Which is a no expense spared film camera.
At this point it would make more sense for Cosina to re-introduce the Bessa than Leica introduce a cheaper camera.
Desmolicious wrote:
There are a few RF cameras I wouldn't touch, from experience. The Minolta CLE - I had two perfect condition ones which just quit working - and the Konica Hexar RF which has its known/notorious death by electronics issues. Both of which have increased in price..
I never enjoyed using my Bessa R3a so sold it on, prices now are crazy for them. It's pretty unbelievable that what was a budget camera (it was the bargain priced RF) made with parts that were used in many Cosina budget SLRs is more expensive now than a used Nikon F6. Which is a no expense spared film camera.
At this point it would make more sense for Cosina to re-introduce the Bessa than Leica introduce a cheaper camera.
I have observed Minolta CLE and Leica CL (film) prices for a while. I remember seeing the Leica CL going for $350 in supposedly mint condition about 3 years ago. Now it is more in the $600 range. I had the CL in my hands at a meeting with other film shooters, and didn't like its built style too much. That's why I excluded it from purchasing.
Bessa cameras were never in my eyesight after I already had Leica Ms. There are so many versions, and I never looked deeper into differences of them and which ones are better than others. But also current prices are steep.
We will see what this is gonna get with cheaper Leica film camera. I think most - including me - have doubts that it is cheap or it might be something different than hoped for.
retrofocus wrote:
We will see what this is gonna get with cheaper Leica film camera. I think most - including me - have doubts that it is cheap or it might be something different than hoped for.
IF Leica does introduce a new film camera, I want it to be very different from current and past Ms. Otherwise what's the point?
Desmolicious wrote:
IF Leica does introduce a new film camera, I want it to be very different from current and past Ms. Otherwise what's the point?
The point is IMO to attract a new generation of film shooters to Leica who don't want to spend $4K for a MA or MP camera. Assuming Leica wants to attract this generation, it needs to offer something similar and competitive to existing Ms on the used market. IMO this must be a M - maybe with restriction as discussed earlier - for well below $2K. Also possible and mentioned earlier that it is sort of a Q with fixed lens - not sure if this is going to fly for some who are lured to buy a used M instead. I could see as a better compromise a revival of the Leica CL with improved properties over the original film CL version for a bit higher price of $1K than the older used model is going for.
retrofocus wrote:
The point is IMO to attract a new generation of film shooters to Leica who don't want to spend $4K for a MA or MP camera. Assuming Leica wants to attract this generation, it needs to offer something similar and competitive to existing Ms on the used market. IMO this must be a M - maybe with restriction as discussed earlier - for well below $2K. Also possible and mentioned earlier that it is sort of a Q with fixed lens - not sure if this is going to fly for some who are lured to buy a used M instead. I could see as a better compromise a revival of the Leica CL with improved properties over the original film CL version for a bit higher price of $1K than the older used model is going for. ...Show more →
Thing is all the new/young film shooters I've run into out in the wild have said "I want an M6!". Not an MP or any other Leica camera. New or old.
So if Leica does release a new camera, and it's not just like an M6, those who want an M6 will still want an M6.
If Leica does release a new M6, how much cheaper can it be than an MP or MA?
IMO the only way it can be cheaper, really cheaper (not $300 less than the current stuff) is if it is a completely different camera.
IMO this must be a M - maybe with restriction as discussed earlier - for well below $2K.
Desmolicious wrote:
IMO the only way it can be cheaper, really cheaper (not $300 less than the current stuff) is if it is a completely different camera.
B&H’s current prices for new Leica M-A and MP bodies are USD5195 and USD5295 respectively. The idea that Leica can or will release a new film M camera—with, say, the restrictions suggested in the PetaPixel article linked earlier in the thread—at a price well below $2K strikes me as fanciful. I can’t see Leica offering a stripped down film M for less than $3295. If the price is “well below $2K”, I have to agree with Desmolicious that it won’t be an M.
Desmolicious wrote:
Thing is all the new/young film shooters I've run into out in the wild have said "I want an M6!". Not an MP or any other Leica camera. New or old.
So if Leica does release a new camera, and it's not just like an M6, those who want an M6 will still want an M6.
If Leica does release a new M6, how much cheaper can it be than an MP or MA?
IMO the only way it can be cheaper, really cheaper (not $300 less than the current stuff) is if it is a completely different camera.
I do not deny that there is a M6 hype since a while, but from my own experience I see people shifting gears to other Leica M film models. Friend of mine - mostly digital shooter - recently bought a M5, and another guy I know went with a M4-P last year. We also shouldn't use the M6 with current ebay prices around $3-3.5K as realistic. This is totally overhyped price-wise. More realistic M6 prices range currently around $2-2.5K. M3 prices go for about $1K. That's why I always said here that Leica needs to be in the $1-1.5K price range for a cheaper film camera competitive to used M cameras. I don't see how it can otherwise work (excluding sales as collector item maybe).
genji wrote:
B&H’s current prices for new Leica M-A and MP bodies are USD5195 and USD5295 respectively. The idea that Leica can or will release a new film M camera—with, say, the restrictions suggested in the PetaPixel article linked earlier in the thread—at a price well below $2K strikes me as fanciful. I can’t see Leica offering a stripped down film M for less than $3295. If the price is “well below $2K”, I have to agree with Desmolicious that it won’t be an M.
See my comment above answering this why a cheap used Leica needs to be far below $2K. In a price range you suggest, users will stick to the used M camera market regarding prices I mentioned above. Then there is no incentive to buy new. Your price of > $3K is much above what I would consider reasonable to fit the definition of cheap even in Leica terms.
Desmolicious wrote:
Howzabout something like a modern Konica Auto S3 or Canon QL from Leica?
(And by modern all it needs to do is use a regular battery for the meter)
Again, such camera would have a fixed lens. I mentioned in an earlier comment in this thread why I don't see it will work (I formerly referred to a film-like Q-series camera). It won't be competitive to the used M camera market and likely still priced too high as such. There might be some enthusiasts going for it, but it will be a stand-alone in the film market, and many simply will stick to a used Leica M camera for a similar price.
retrofocus wrote:
See my comment above answering this why a cheap used Leica needs to be far below $2K. In a price range you suggest, users will stick to the used M camera market regarding prices I mentioned above. Then there is no incentive to buy new. Your price of > $3K is much above what I would consider reasonable to fit the definition of cheap even in Leica terms.
Not to beat a dead horse, but I am certain 'affordable' would have to be relative to their current film M offerings, at $5200 & $5300. And if they were to offer a new M that was comparable to, say a M6 or M7, but was brand new & came with a warranty, people would be willing to pay considerably more than a used M6 or M7.
However, if they were to build a film M-mount camera for less than $2000, some serious compromises would have to made, such as farming out production, removing features, and using less expensive components. (à la the CL)
My suspicions, that if the rumours are true, it would likely be the former of the two above possibilities. Or as Huss suggests, a premium compact.... Which are all the rage these days, could be 'affordable', and would sell like hot cakes.
helimat wrote:
Not to beat a dead horse, but I am certain 'affordable' would have to be relative to their current film M offerings, at $5200 & $5300. And if they were to offer a new M that was comparable to, say a M6 or M7, but was brand new & came with a warranty, people would be willing to pay considerably more than a used M6 or M7.
However, if they were to build a film M-mount camera for less than $2000, some serious compromises would have to made, such as farming out production, removing features, and using less expensive components. (à la the CL)
My suspicions, that if the rumours are true, it would likely be the former of the two above possibilities. Or as Huss suggests, a premium compact.... Which are all the rage these days, could be 'affordable', and would sell like hot cakes.
I am pretty sure that Leica will do everything to avoid in-house competition with the > $5K film cameras (MA and MP series). It doesn't make sense to me to come up with a third in the same price range and calling it "more affordable" or "cheaper". I can't talk for others of course, but if Leica would offer a remake of a M6/M7 for much higher price than used, I would certainly stick to the used camera market.
I don't understand why you would think that "serious compromises would have to be made" for a Leica film camera below $2K. I don't see an issue of farming out production (Leica is already doing this in Portugal to some part) and not having a brass camera body. Almost certainly some options which the M-P has will be removed in this cheaper model just to avoid in-house competition as I mentioned here multiple times already - we discussed earlier in this thread what this might mean but still would be fine IMO.
I fully believe that Leica needs to stay way below $5K with such new cheaper film camera which also needs to be competitive with used M camera market prices averaging around $1.5-2K.
Just as remark, no matter how this final cheaper Leica film camera will end up to be, it will be likely be of no interest to me no matter how it is priced: I already have the M3, M6, and M7 (plus a working IIIc). I also do not mind "losing" value of my existing cameras if such cheaper model is competitive with used prices for these M cameras since I will keep mine anyway.
The failure of the Summarit M line lenses shows that a new cheaper Leica camera needs to be a lot cheaper than the current Ms. A lot. The Summarits optically were great, but while the prices were a little cheaper, the paying customer did not see the value. They either paid a few hundred more and bought a Summicron, or bought a used Summicron for the same money.
A new film camera from Leica needs to be dramatically cheaper, or very different than the current Ms.
Let's be honest here, dramatically cheaper can still be a very expensive camera.
