It is surprising to me to hear the A7C described by some as overpriced or made cheaply of old parts.
In addition to its small size, which is a major feature and which is expensive rather than cheap to build, requiring additional development costs, all new parts, and the creation of a new shutter and new IBIS system, the A7C has arguably the best image quality sensor in the Sony line (per Bill Claff's measurements) and the best AF system (the same as in the new A7SIII) other than the A9 series bodies.
realVivek wrote:
Here is a tip: the shutter units of A7/A7R are interchangeable.
Are you referring to the fact that the A7 has an EFCS option and the A7R doesn't?
If so I don't see how that's relevant - if you want to offer fully [electro]mechanical shutter, you need two curtains. If you want to offer fully [electro]mechanical shutter and electronic first curtain, then you need two curtains. This is why the A7/A7R shutter units are the same.
If on the other hand you want to offer EFCS/fully electronic shutter only, as the A7C does, then you can do away with one of the curtains, which simplifies the shutter and presumably makes it smaller/cheaper, which [again presumably] is why they went this route.
It's not a choice that I'm big fan of, since the mechanical curtain is in front of the electronic one, with fast shutter speeds and EFCS, the sensor only sees the top half of the exit pupil, leading to half moon shaped bokeh.
Of course switching to full electronic avoids this, but introduces other issues e.g. banding, skew artifacts, reduced bit depth (on some models).
It is surprising to me to hear the A7C described by some as overpriced or made cheaply of old parts.
In addition to its small size, which is a major feature and which is expensive rather than cheap to build, requiring additional development costs, all new parts, and the creation of a new shutter and new IBIS system, the A7C has arguably the best image quality sensor in the Sony line (per Bill Claff's measurements) and the best AF system (the same as in the new A7SIII) other than the A9 series bodies.
Yes the innovation is the size. And when it comes to something like cameras I tend to prefer very focused designs intended to excel in very specific areas vs jack of all trades, master of none type gear. Clearly a lot of the decision made were around the prioritization of making the camera smaller....and I've always appreciated that with cameras and lenses if you want to go smaller, you have to learn to work with the compromises.
I still have my a7riv and a7rIII (for now) when I need them. Horses for courses.
Only beef with me was the price. But BH student discount and payboo bring things to a reasonable all in cost for me.
chiron wrote:
It is surprising to me to hear the A7C described by some as overpriced or made cheaply of old parts.
it is priced well under $2k!
Current price seems to be $1800 (on B&H), which I wouldn't say is well under $2k. The biggest issue is that the A7III is $1700 (again using B&H), and for $100 less it beats the A7C in every area except size.
So you pay extra and give up a lot of features, to save... 141g (about 5oz).
My wallet weighs 115g, my keys weigh 107g (and before COVID I would have had more than that again in loose coins). I could save more weight by just taking my credit card/driving license and front door key out with me.
The size saving is maybe worth it for some, but since I can't get an A6000 in my pocket, the A7C wont fit either, so losing the hump doesn't gain me anything. I like the concept of a cut down uber small body, but not at the current asking price/feature set.
From the outside looking at both cameras, neither are super compelling at the price point but are the best options for 24mp FF mirrorless right now. The A73 will be replaced soon and the A7c is basically the same outgoing tech. So, the price is a bit high but I will buy one or the other this year.
I looked at both Nikon and Canon's offerings, they are at least a few years behind Sony so I don't see a reason to onboard to their still-growing ecosystem. Especially with the "Canon tax" added to their stuff. At least Nikon is priced fairly. I guess Sony is aware of this and sets pricing accordingly.
I have owned a a6400 before, I could get it in a jacket pocket. So the size difference definitely matters to me. I'll have to decide if I want the just-a-bit-smaller option or the bigger viewfinder, but I am leaning towards the C. Man I wish they just had used the a6400's EVF, I had no problem with it.
Oct 28, 2020 at 04:04 PM
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Matt Grum wrote:
Current price seems to be $1800 (on B&H), which I wouldn't say is well under $2k. The biggest issue is that the A7III is $1700 (again using B&H), and for $100 less it beats the A7C in every area except size.
So you pay extra and give up a lot of features, to save... 141g (about 5oz).
My wallet weighs 115g, my keys weigh 107g (and before COVID I would have had more than that again in loose coins). I could save more weight by just taking my credit card/driving license and front door key out with me.
The size saving is maybe worth it for some, but since I can't get an A6000 in my pocket, the A7C wont fit either, so losing the hump doesn't gain me anything. I like the concept of a cut down uber small body, but not at the current asking price/feature set.
I think there are some differences in the AF as well that favor the A7C. The primary deficits of the A7C in comparison to the A7 III are the new shutter mechanism that was developed, the smaller EVF, fewer controls, and that the A7C only has one card slot. There is little question they have a lot in common, but these issues in addition to size are the major ones.
Steve Spencer wrote:
I think there are some differences in the AF as well that favor the A7C.
Actually that's a good point - I had forgotten about that.
I also should have mentioned that I much prefer the EVF placement in the A7C, as I shoot with my right eye, having the viewfinder centred is much less comfortable (as it involves crushing the camera into your face and smearing your nose all over the LCD screen).
Which is why the EVF spec is a little disappointing. My ideal A7C would have done away with things like IBIS and fancy AF features and concentrated on the basics, solid image quality, good shutter, great viewfinder and a reasonable price.
Matt Grum wrote:
Current price seems to be $1800 (on B&H), which I wouldn't say is well under $2k. The biggest issue is that the A7III is $1700 (again using B&H), and for $100 less it beats the A7C in every area except size.
So you pay extra and give up a lot of features, to save... 141g (about 5oz).
My wallet weighs 115g, my keys weigh 107g (and before COVID I would have had more than that again in loose coins). I could save more weight by just taking my credit card/driving license and front door key out with me.
The size saving is maybe worth it for some, but since I can't get an A6000 in my pocket, the A7C wont fit either, so losing the hump doesn't gain me anything. I like the concept of a cut down uber small body, but not at the current asking price/feature set.
Really? I do think $1798 is well under $2000. I got mine with the zoom lens for $1888 at B&H.
The autofocus on the A7C is quite significantly better than on the A7III--it is the same autofocus as on the A7SIII and includes real time tracking and eye-af, which are transformative for shooting. I don't expect any of the minor deletions or changes to matter or to negatively affect how I shoot--custom buttons and the other differences are marginal or inconsequential for me.
Indeed, while I like having an EVF, which the A7C does have, I find that with real time tracking and eye AF that I more and more often use the LCD screen to compose--it allows me to move the camera to a variety of positions in relationship to my subject that are unreachable or difficult to achieve using the EVF. It also allows me to view the image with two eyes open and to continue to see what is happening around the image in a way that provides a lot more shooting information for composing, adjusting, and changing the image. Using the LCD in this way is much more difficult on the A7III because of focusing issues.
As for weight and size, I originally bought a NEX-7 because it was so much smaller and lighter than a DSLR. The A7C is a return to that character, and I anticipate liking it a lot.
chiron wrote:
Indeed, while I like having an EVF, which the A7C does have, I find that with real time tracking and eye AF that I more and more often use the LCD screen to compose--it allows me to move the camera to a variety of positions in relationship to my subject that are unreachable or difficult to achieve using the EVF. It also allows me to view the image with two eyes open and to continue to see what is happening around the image in a way that provides a lot more shooting information for composing, adjusting, and changing the image. Using the LCD in this way is much more difficult on the A7III because of focusing issues.
As for weight and size, I originally bought a NEX-7 because it was so much smaller and lighter than a DSLR. The A7C is a return to that character, and I anticipate liking it a lot.
That's an interesting thought...and a good way to bypass all the 'the EVF sucks' talk. Hmmm....I think I'd have to use a lens that isn't my Sigma 45 for that, though.
chiron wrote
I got mine with the zoom lens for $1888 at B&H.
That sounds like a good deal for the lens. At the end of the day everyone is different, I kept my A7R even after upgrading because I just loved it's simplicity and weight (44g lighter than the A7C!) and the quality of the images. It's especially good with the Zony 35/2.8 mounted.
Dave Sanders wrote:
That's an interesting thought...and a good way to bypass all the 'the EVF sucks' talk. Hmmm....I think I'd have to use a lens that isn't my Sigma 45 for that, though.
Yes, I have been a bit surprised by how much I like using the LCD for composing and shooting and how often it makes it possible to get an angle or a picture that otherwise wouldn't happen. And seeing the whole scene with both eyes open does seem to feed me ideas on what image to take next. Also, one is not taking the camoera up and back to the eye all the time.
I think cell phones have influenced this a lot. Most of us have gotten very used to using the phone screen to compose and some have discovered advantages that they miss when using an EVF on a camera.
chiron wrote:
Yes, I have been a bit surprised by how much I like using the LCD for composing and shooting and how often it makes it possible to get an angle or a picture that otherwise wouldn't happen. And seeing the whole scene with both eyes open does seem to feed me ideas on what image to take next. Also, one is not taking the camoera up and back to the eye all the time.
I think cell phones have influenced this a lot. Most of us have gotten very used to using the phone screen to compose and some have discovered advantages that they miss when using an EVF on a camera....Show more →
When I still had my OMD EM1 and m43 kit, I was really enamored of the touch to focus/release feature. I used it a lot with the LCD, especially with family where I could still make eye contact and engage and just touch the screen to snap a photo. If the tracking AF is as good as it sounds, then it takes a stope out of that, essentially. I could see myself enjoying that. I've been looking for a more appropriate 'family camera' and have been looking at things from a new X100V to just using the Sigma 45 on my old A7R. Maybe it's the C I should be paying attention to?
Something is mixed up here. I wrote the comment about the Nex 7 as my favorite camera, not Chiron or anyelse. Just to clarify. Not sure what is happening with the message formating.
Michael Everet wrote:
Something is mixed up here. I wrote the comment about the Nex 7 as my favorite camera, not Chiron or anyelse. Just to clarify. Not sure what is happening with the message formating.
It looks like you might have written your message inside of rather than below the last QUOTE delineator. You should be able to go back and edit it right. Or just delete all the content of your mis-formatted messages and then re-enter what you wanted to say.
It's a buy for me as an attractive second camera to the A7rIV, great for family outings and for travel when mated with Samyang's compact 45 and 75 1.8 or a Tamron 28-200mm. It will replace a Leica CL which served as the "compact travel solution " and with the Leica body and L lens sales I will even have cash freed up.
Oct 28, 2020 at 11:40 PM
Steve Spencer Online • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
Matt Grum wrote:
Actually that's a good point - I had forgotten about that.
I also should have mentioned that I much prefer the EVF placement in the A7C, as I shoot with my right eye, having the viewfinder centred is much less comfortable (as it involves crushing the camera into your face and smearing your nose all over the LCD screen).
Which is why the EVF spec is a little disappointing. My ideal A7C would have done away with things like IBIS and fancy AF features and concentrated on the basics, solid image quality, good shutter, great viewfinder and a reasonable price.
I actually have very similar preferences, but unfortunately for us Sony didn't make that camera. As a right eye shooter (who has a pretty big nose), I like the EVF placement as well. If I can make the small EVF work for me, then I will get the camera anyway. It is still closer to what I would want for a travel camera than anything else out there, well than anything other than a Leica M10, but that is in a very different price category.
I think they should bring the next one alongside the a7IV, at least then people would understand it's a style distinction not meant to replace or directly compete with the main line
