An interesting note from Canon on bit rate and continous plus (12fps). [ I have ordered R5 and am watching the features reveal]
When shooting at 12fps - the bit rate drops to 13 bits from 14 bits
Otherwise to avoid this you have to stay at 8fps
Past discussion of this feature on Sony A7's (drops to 12 on continuous or bulb or any other hiccup), suggests 12 bit has little impact at higher ISO and only matters at low ISO's (landscape ISO's).[eg Sony does not really get its advertised dynamic range unless you shoot off continuous] Thus 13 bit would likely have even less impact.
So for landscape photographers (me) I will just need to make sure I am not in continuous high plus for highest dynamic range and IQ. [Normal for me]
And when I shoot animals - rarely at iso 100 - I should switch off continuous high plus if its really bright and the animals are still. But for BIF you would expect an impact to dynamic range/iq because continuous + is necessary.[Easy for me - I will set C3 at lower speed continuous as default but now I need a c4 for BIF ]
Continuous shooting speed is lower under certain shooting and measurement conditions: shutter speed, aperture value,-
subject conditions, brightness, type of lens, timing when internal memory becomes full (temporarily disables shooting)
- Mechanical / electronic 1st curtain: use of flash, anti-flicker shooting: Enable, Dual Pixel RAW shooting- Enable, type
of battery, battery level, temperature, use of a battery grip, use of WFT, use of built-in Wi-Fi.
- Electronic shutter: State of aperture in continuous shooting
* With Certain lenses, zooming during continuous shooting with electronic shutter may cause changes in exposure even at
the same f/number.
*1: For shooting RAW images in [High-speed continuous +], 13-bit A/D conversion will apply regardless of the mode (A, B,
or C).
*2: With Anti-flicker shooting, max. continuous shooting speed may drop to approx 6.2 fps (with electronic 1st curtain shutter) or approx. 4.9 fps (with mechanical shutter).
* For Dual Pixel RAW shooting, Low-speed continuous shooting will apply.
InnomnateViem wrote:
i thought that was for 20 fps.
No, it's for high speed continuous plus in all modes. This has been known since the announcement to anyone who cared to read. The R6 has the same deal.
deepbluejh wrote:
It's interesting to note, but probably pretty trivial in practice. Any real quality drop from 14 bit to 13 bit has got to be incredibly small.
Intuitively, it will be trivial for BIF because no other manufacturer gets 12fps (or even 10fps) at 14bit. This 13 bit is as good as it gets.
But if you want to get the most out of the R5 on dynamic range/iq (14 bit) for landscape, you should not shoot on continuous high plus. Its still significantly better than Sony where you cannot use bulb at 14 bit.
seeing with eyes on a monitor is not the problem. large format printing is another story.
although, Canon's 13 Raw bit depth is much better than Sony's 10 RAW bit depth. the wider bit depth requires less linear stretching for astrophotgraphers as well.
as you can see in the example underexposed by three stops in camera there is data in the 14 bit uncompressed image similar to some of the conditions we see in astro. when stacking subs that data is relevant to the over all image. it could be dust or a reflective dark nebulae for example.
Scott Stoness wrote:
Intuitively, it will be trivial for BIF because no other manufacturer gets 12fps (or even 10fps) at 14bit. This 13 bit is as good as it gets.
mikeinctown wrote:
No, it's for high speed continuous plus in all modes. This has been known since the announcement to anyone who cared to read. The R6 has the same deal.
I don't believe this applies to the R6. Canon left it off the R6 spec sheet.
R6 Spec Sheet
1. Continuous shooting speed is lower under certain shooting and measurement conditions: shutter speed, aperture
value subject conditions, brightness, type of lens, timing when internal memory becomes full (temporarily disables shooting)
- Mechanical / electronic 1st curtain: use of flash, anti-flicker shooting: Enable, Dual Pixel RAW shooting- Enable, type
of battery, battery level, temperature, use of a battery grip, use of WFT, use of built-in Wi-Fi.
- Electronic shutter: State of aperture in continuous shooting
* With Certain lenses, zooming during continuous shooting with electronic shutter may cause changes in exposure even at
the same f/number.
2. Automatically switches among modes A (drive mode icon lit in green), B (drive mode icon lit in white), and C (drive mode
icon flashing in white).
* For flash shooting, values for AE, flash metering, and WB do not change after the first shot
Mike Jacks0n wrote:
I don't believe this applies to the R6. Canon left it off the R6 spec sheet.
R6 Spec Sheet
1. Continuous shooting speed is lower under certain shooting and measurement conditions: shutter speed, aperture
value subject conditions, brightness, type of lens, timing when internal memory becomes full (temporarily disables shooting)
- Mechanical / electronic 1st curtain: use of flash, anti-flicker shooting: Enable, Dual Pixel RAW shooting- Enable, type
of battery, battery level, temperature, use of a battery grip, use of WFT, use of built-in Wi-Fi.
- Electronic shutter: State of aperture in continuous shooting
* With Certain lenses, zooming during continuous shooting with electronic shutter may cause changes in exposure even at
the same f/number.
2. Automatically switches among modes A (drive mode icon lit in green), B (drive mode icon lit in white), and C (drive mode
icon flashing in white).
* For flash shooting, values for AE, flash metering, and WB do not change after the first shot...Show more →
If you look at their spec sheet they show a *1 and *2 which isn't listed in their footnotes but is listed in the R5 footnotes. If there is no compressed RAW for the R6 then that would be very good news that I hope they would clarify. Would also solidify my choice of trying to purchase both cameras.
*1: For shooting RAW images in [High-speed continuous +], 13-bit A/D conversion will apply regardless of the mode (A, B,
or C).
*2: With Anti-flicker shooting, max. continuous shooting speed may drop to approx 6.2 fps (with electronic 1st curtain shutter) or approx. 4.9 fps (with mechanical shutter).
13 bits vs 14 bits doesn't say anything useful itself. It all depends on the quality of those 13 bits.
Dynamic range and quantization noise are only loosely correlated. Two important things to know are one, that the quantization noise is actually a little bit less than half the least significant bit on average. This means that it is possible to represent more than 14 stops of dynamic range with 13 bits conversion. The other is that the dynamic range should be normalized for resolution before comparing between cameras. In theory, the dynamic range of the R5 in 13 bits mode can be higher than any camera to date in 14 bits mode.
What is more interesting, is if more than the conversion bit depth is changed in 13 bits mode. For the 1DXII we know that is the case in 12 bits mode, as the dynamic range is far from bit depth limited.
.
mikeinctown wrote:
If you look at their spec sheet they show a *1 and *2 which isn't listed in their footnotes but is listed in the R5 footnotes. If there is no compressed RAW for the R6 then that would be very good news that I hope they would clarify. Would also solidify my choice of trying to purchase both cameras.
*1: For shooting RAW images in [High-speed continuous +], 13-bit A/D conversion will apply regardless of the mode (A, B,
or C).
*2: With Anti-flicker shooting, max. continuous shooting speed may drop to approx 6.2 fps (with electronic 1st curtain shutter) or approx. 4.9 fps (with mechanical shutter)....Show more →
That's not how I read it. I see it as saying "See note 1 and then look to the note with an *". Which corresponds to "With Certain lenses, zooming during continuous shooting with electronic shutter may cause changes in exposure even at the same f/number."
I doubt they would refer you out of the document and into another document's footnote.
This is pretty sad that Canon is now going the same route of lowering bit depth. When the ISO is higher, it doesn't make any difference, but if one is doing a handheld burst for a landscape or other static scene at low ISO to average the frames into one shot, then it becomes an issue.
It fills me with geek rage how my Sony drops to 12 bit even when doing an automated exposure bracket, or even a slow speed burst. It's almost as if the Sony programmer was like "yeah I could put in a couple extra lines of code for cases where the camera doesn't need to drop to 12 bits, but my sushi is getting warm and dry, so eff it, I'm going to lunch."
Mike Jacks0n wrote:
That's not how I read it. I see it as saying "See note 1 and then look to the note with an *". Which corresponds to "With Certain lenses, zooming during continuous shooting with electronic shutter may cause changes in exposure even at the same f/number."
I doubt they would refer you out of the document and into another document's footnote.
I'm not saying that they are referring you to another document, but they haven't appropriately placed the notes as applicable. If you read the R5 document you can clearly see that they refer to the *1 and *2 individually for both, not that you should see note 1 or 2. Given how they are omitting the proper footnotes in other sections I think it is an omission on their part rather than a complete change in their writing of specifications for similar documents for cameras both announced on the very same day.
Well, I use jpegs regularly, and those are 8 bit. So dropping from 14 to 13 doesn't sound too bad.
I'd rather have the full 14 if I was really pushing the file, say picking up the shadows a ton, but for most stuff 13 might be just fine. And I don't really need 8fps, even, much less more. Maybe for BIF, otherwise I'm probably eating card space for little gain.
mikeinctown wrote:
I'm not saying that they are referring you to another document, but they haven't appropriately placed the notes as applicable. If you read the R5 document you can clearly see that they refer to the *1 and *2 individually for both, not that you should see note 1 or 2. Given how they are omitting the proper footnotes in other sections I think it is an omission on their part rather than a complete change in their writing of specifications for similar documents for cameras both announced on the very same day.
The problem is, there IS a 1 and an asterisk in the very footnote they reference. I don't think its prudent to look past that. But, I'll tell you what, ANYTHING is possible. Maybe it was a mistake as you say, or maybe it means exactly what they wrote... I can't say. However, I think your thought should be presented as just that, "how you believe they meant to write it", but not presented as a fact.
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